Flare Sci-fi Forums
Flare Sci-Fi Forums Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Flare Sci-Fi Forums » Community » The Flameboard » Oh My (Page 1)

  This topic comprises 6 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6   
Author Topic: Oh My
Veers
You first
Member # 661

 - posted      Profile for Veers         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Someone explain the logic of this to me:

Endangered Animals

quote:
White House eyes change in endangered animals policy

Proponents claim move will help poor countries and their rare species

By Shankar Vedantam, Washington Post

WASHINGTON -- The Bush administration is proposing far-reaching changes to conservation policies that would allow hunters, circuses and the pet industry to kill, capture and import animals on the brink of extinction in other countries.
Giving Americans access to endangered animals, officials said, would both feed the gigantic U.S. demand for live animals, skins, parts and trophies, and generate profits that would allow poor nations to pay for conservation of the remaining animals and their habitats.

This and other proposals that pursue conservation through trade would, for example, open the door for American trophy hunters to kill the endangered straight-horned markhor in Pakistan; license the pet industry to import the blue fronted Amazon parrot from Argentina; permit the capture of endangered Asian elephants for U.S. circuses and zoos; and partially resume the international trade in African ivory. No U.S. endangered species would be affected.

Conservation groups counter that killing or capturing even a few animals is hardly the best way to protect endangered species, and say the policies cater to individuals and businesses that profit from animal exploitation. "It's a very dangerous precedent to decide that wildlife exploitation is in the best interest of wildlife," said Adam Roberts, a senior research associate at the nonprofit Animal Welfare Institute, an advocacy group for endangered species.

The latest proposal involves an interpretation of the Endangered Species Act that deviates radically from the course followed by Republican and Democratic administrations since President Nixon signed the act in 1973. The law established broad protection for endangered species, most of which are not native to America, and effectively prohibited trade in them.

Kenneth Stansell, assistant director for international affairs at the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, said there has been a growing realization that the Endangered Species Act provides poor countries no incentive to protect dying species. Allowing American hunters, circuses and the pet industry to pay countries to take fixed numbers of animals from the wild would fund conservation programs for remaining animals, he said.

U.S. officials note that such trade is already open to hunters, pet importers and zoos in other Western nations. They say the idea is supported by poor countries that are home to the endangered species and would benefit from the revenue.

Officials at the Department of Interior and Fish and Wildlife, who are spearheading many of the new policies, said the proposals merely implement rarely used provisions in the law.

"This is absolutely consistent with the Endangered Species Act, as written," said David Smith, deputy assistant secretary at the Department of Interior for Fish and Wildlife and Parks. "I think the nature of the beast is such that there are critics who are going to claim some kind of ulterior motive."

Animal welfare advocates question the logic of the new approach, saying that foreign countries and groups that stand to profit will be in charge of determining how many animals can be killed or captured. Advocates also warn that opening the door to legal trade will allow poaching to flourish.

"As soon as you place a financial price on the head of wild animals, the incentive is to kill the animal or capture them," Roberts said. "The minute people find out they can have an easier time killing, shipping and profiting from wildlife, they will do so."

The proposals also trigger a visceral response: To many animal lovers, these species have emotional and symbolic value, and should never be captured or killed.

The Endangered Species Act prohibits removing domestic endangered species from the wild. Until now, that protection was extended to foreign species. Explaining the change, Stansell said, "There is a recognition that these sovereign nations have a different way of managing their natural resources."

Indeed, many of the strongest advocates for "sustainable use" programs -- under which some animals are "harvested" to raise money to save the rest -- have been countries that are home to various endangered species. Foreign trade groups and governments have tried for years -- mostly in vain -- to convince the United States that animals are no longer in limited supply, or that capturing or killing fixed numbers would not drive a species to extinction.

That could change after Oct. 17, the end of the public comment period on one proposed change. The proposal identified several species:

Morelet's crocodile, an endangered freshwater crocodile found in Mexico, Guatemala and Belize. Its skin is prized by U.S. leather importers.

The endangered Asian elephant of India and Southeast Asia. The declining population in U.S. breeding programs "has raised a significant demand among the (U.S.) zoo and circus community," the proposal said.

The Asian bonytongue, a valuable aquarium fish, found in Indonesia, Thailand and Malaysia.

The straight-horned mar-khor, an endangered wild goat in Pakistan distinguished by corkscrew-shaped horns.

According to the proposal, "allowing a limited number of U.S. hunters an opportunity to import trophies from this population could provide a significant increase in funds available for conservation."

John Monson, a New Hampshire trophy hunter and former chairman of that state's Fish and Game Commission, said the program would help preserve rare animals. In 1999, Monson applied for a permit to shoot and import a straight-horned markhor. He was turned down.

Monson said the money he has spent hunting trophies -- including a leopard from Namibia and a bontebok antelope from South Africa -- has funded conservation programs.

Monson is president-elect of Safari Club International, a national hunting advocacy group. He agreed to an interview only in his personal capacity.

Safari Club International gave $274,000 to candidates during the 2000 election cycle, 86 percent of it to Republicans. It also spent $5,445 printing bumper stickers for the Bush presidential campaign. Monson has made a variety of contributions himself, including $1,000 to the Bush for President campaign.

Teresa Telecky, former director of the wildlife trade program at the Humane Society, blamed lobbying by Safari Club International and other special interest groups for a "sea change" in conservation policy. "The approach of this administration is it is all right to kill endangered or threatened species or capture them from the wild so long as somebody says there would be some conservation benefit," she said.

Stansell said conservation goals, not lobbying, drove the proposals, which he said evolved through previous administrations.

Still, the application of "sustainable use" has never been so broad. Last November, the U.S. reversed its long-held position and voted to allow Botswana, Namibia and South Africa to resume trade in their ivory stockpiles. Stansell said the sales, which have not yet begun, will support elephant conservation.

But Susan Lieberman, former chief of the Scientific Authority at the Fish and Wildlife Service and now director of the species program at the World Wildlife Fund, said legal trade in ivory always triggers illegal poaching. "Money doesn't always mean conservation," she added. "To me, the theme is allowing an industry to write the rules, which is a Bush administration pattern."

Smith, the administration official, said permits would be issued only after foreign countries showed they had strong conservation programs. "There is nothing else we have as a country to force other countries to conserve their wildlife, other than being paternalistic and saying 'no, no, no,'" he said.

In another "sustainable use" proposal, the Fish and Wildlife Service announced in August a precedent-setting exemption to the Wild Bird Conservation Act, which was signed into law in 1992 by President George H.W. Bush. The policy would allow importation of the blue fronted Amazon parrot from Argentina. The agency is reviewing public comment.

The prized parrots sell for several hundred dollars apiece. Stansell said Argentina, which approached Fish and Wildlife with the proposal, would allow the capture of about 10 nestling parrots from five nests in every 250 acres of parrot habitat.

With export taxes of $40 to $80 per bird, a 250-acre area would generate $400 to $800 per year to support conservation. Stansell conceded that cutting down forest habitat and selling timber would generate far more money for landowners, but said the Argentine government concluded that owners would prefer sustainable returns from selling the birds.

Conservation biologists said the service made poor estimates -- or no estimates -- about how many parrots would be left.

"It's an extraordinarily bad idea," said Jamie Gilardi, director of the World Parrot Trust, a conservation group that has filed opposition to the plan in a letter signed by 88 international biologists. "The quotas are based on poor or inadequate science -- and the sustainability issue is simply not addressed at all."

The Fish and Wildlife Service's parrot proposal cited scientific estimates by Enrique Bucher, a top Argentine parrot biologist, in determining how many birds could be safely captured. But in a telephone interview from the University of Cordoba in Argentina, Bucher said his research actually showed the U.S. proposal was poorly conceived and lacked scientific oversight.

"It's a very romantic idea, but in practice I do not know any positive examples," he said, referring to "sustainable use" plans. "The assumption that local communities will have the organization and altruism to put the money into long-term protection of the environment where you have terrible economic forces pushing for deforestation is a little naive."



--------------------
Meh

Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

 - posted      Profile for Jay the Obscure     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Glad you beat me to it.

--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
bX
Stopped. Smelling flowers.
Member # 419

 - posted      Profile for bX     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This is revolting.

--------------------
"Nah. The 9th chevron is for changing the ringtone from "grindy-grindy chonk-chonk" to the theme tune to dallas." -Reverend42

Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
Ritten
A Terrible & Sick leek
Member # 417

 - posted      Profile for Ritten     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Next on "It's your White House' whaling will make a come back.....

--------------------
"You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus
"Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers
A leek too, pretty much a negi.....

Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
Wraith
Zen Riot Activist
Member # 779

 - posted      Profile for Wraith     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
But purely in order to save the whales.

--------------------
"I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw

Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
Member # 882

 - posted      Profile for Jason Abbadon     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I bet "sustainable harvesting" of Republicans would only protect the species.
Lets find out.

--------------------
Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Nim
The Aardvark asked for a dagger
Member # 205

 - posted      Profile for Nim     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Zoos and circuses should be outlawed. You want to see a lion, go to Africa and watch one, they're not here for your fucking amusement.

I was so glad when they got to that south african pasty-white asshole who lured lions to a fence by putting their cubs on the other side, then let flown-in millionaires shoot them.

--------------------
"I'm nigh-invulnerable when I'm blasting!"
Mel Gibson, X-Men

Registered: Aug 1999  |  IP: Logged
Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256

 - posted      Profile for Cartman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Can we paint a big red bullseye on the back of certain influential Republicans and declare it open season?

I bet "sustainable harvesting" of Republicans would only protect the species.

I'll slide them on the "hazardous to nature" list.

You want to see a lion, go to Africa and watch one...

... but then you're an intruder in their domain, and a disruptive presence.

Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
Member # 882

 - posted      Profile for Jason Abbadon     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Somehow I think it'd be far less disruptive that making the lion jump through a ring of fire or other lase-ass circus tricks. [Wink]

--------------------
Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256

 - posted      Profile for Cartman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It wasn't a counter-argument. Most people just aren't aware how much damage a safari causes, or that there even IS a flip side to tourism.

--------------------
".mirrorS arE morE fuN thaN televisioN" - TEH PNIK FLAMIGNO

Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
bX
Stopped. Smelling flowers.
Member # 419

 - posted      Profile for bX     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't think hunting should be banned outright, I just think they ought to even up the odds a bit more. "Here you go, sir. Now that's a 4 inch hunk of sharpened stone, and somewhere out there on the plains (likely blending into the high grass) is a fiercely territorial 200 pound six foot long predator with extremely powerful claws and teeth. Happy hunting!" Let us say it might do well to cull the human herd.

--------------------
"Nah. The 9th chevron is for changing the ringtone from "grindy-grindy chonk-chonk" to the theme tune to dallas." -Reverend42

Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
Styrofoaman
Active Member
Member # 706

 - posted      Profile for Styrofoaman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Revolting. I agree. We need to have open season on government officials.

--------------------
Like A Bat Out Of Hell...

Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nim
The Aardvark asked for a dagger
Member # 205

 - posted      Profile for Nim     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Huuuuunteeeers... *clinks bottles together* Come out and play-ay...

--------------------
"I'm nigh-invulnerable when I'm blasting!"
Mel Gibson, X-Men

Registered: Aug 1999  |  IP: Logged
First of Two
Better than you
Member # 16

 - posted      Profile for First of Two     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
How many endangered species have more members living in captivity in various and sundry zoos than there are in the wild?

Does anybody intend to find out?

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

 - posted      Profile for Jay the Obscure     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What's your point?

--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
  This topic comprises 6 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


© 1999-2024 Charles Capps

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3