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Author Topic: The Prometheus is dumb
Shik
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There, I said it.

I'm at the point in my editing where I've hit the paragraph on this dumbass design & the more I think about it, the more it pisses me off. We have this ship where its big secret, its major idea, is that it splits into three smaller weirder-looking ships to...what? Swarm an enemy? Woo.

It's the incongruity of it all that's bothersome. This is a full-size 415-meter cruiser with all the bells & whistles: big sickbay, labs, large-ish crew capacity, lounges, quarters with windows. Each of the parts are a couple hundred meters apiece, all with the same redundant functions. It's supposed to be secret, but also..big? And fully crewed? But also, it can all be computer-controlled by five guys (or two holograms) saying "SUPER ROBOT FIGHT MODE ENGAGE!!!"

Wouldn't something smaller have been more sensible, not only from a tech demonstrator POV but also a tactical one? Something Defiant or Oberth-sized splitting into a couple smaller solely-computer-controlled parts seems more practical; of course, this is the same fleet that built a new full-sized starship for a new untested drive, but Excelsior still otherwise made sense. Prometheus just...doesn't, except as some sort of tactical engineering masturbational wartime fantasy made manifest.

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Guardian 2000
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Fact check: true.

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MinutiaeMan
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Agreed. I like the overall ship design, but I still don’t understand how creating triply redundant systems for the three sections can possibly make sense. Outer hull, sensors, warp core and nacelles, fuel tanks, crew facilities, would all need to be tripled.

I’ve always interpreted the Prometheus to be an in-universe boondoggle, an idea that someone pushed far enough into the testing phase but really didn’t make practical sense. Build it as a one-off prototype.

Maybe its primary breakthrough wasn’t the MVAM, but the automation systems allowing minimal crew. Holoemitters in every cabin (foreshadowing La Sirena’s holo-crew, perhaps?), redundant systems everywhere, internally-stowed warp nacelles for the forward section....

What if the Prometheus is a ship at least twice the size/mass of an equivalent starship thanks to its redundant systems? That would make it an oversized Saber rather than a militarized Intrepid (going based on ship mass and volume). Going from Guardian’s volume calcs, a Prometheus is about the same mass and volume as three Sabers.

The only thing that I can think of that maybe a larger ship can do better is be faster/more efficient at high warp speeds. On the Prometheus MSD the warp cores for the middle and lower sections line up vertically. Maybe a taller warp core can be more effective and fuel efficient. It was never directly addressed on the show, but the Defiant never got to the extreme speeds that Voyager and Prometheus could, with its very short warp core. This could be the in-universe technical reason, the Defiant is hobbled by a powerful but inefficient warp core because it’s so small.

I could see some *possible* uses for a fast ship that could go farther but then split up to be in multiple places when it gets there. Not just for combat, but even for exploring. Having all three sections being warp capable would make it slightly less useless than the Galaxy class’s saucer separation.

As for secrecy, all we have to go on is the somewhat unstable EMH Mk.II’s word. I’m sure the ship wasn’t public knowledge, but it probably wasn’t as top secret as he implied. And with automation testing implying a much smaller crew, that would explain why the Romulans could capture it so easily, why only “four” people were qualified to pilot it, and why two holograms could defeat a Romulan Warbird (which was probably already damaged by the other Starfleet ships).

If you’re looking for ideas and justification for your Starfleet history, Shik, what if Prometheus started out as a multi-hull testing prototype for automation systems, with possible use for extreme-range scouting and exploring? Then it got appropriated for combat purposes when the Borg and Dominion conflicts developed.

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Shik
There's a million things I haven't done, but just you wait
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That's not a bad idea, actually. Right now, I'm referring to it as part of taking another look at dropped Borg-buster ideas for repurposing during the war (currently right after the Jack Pack showed up; previous paragraph mentioned the negotiations where the Dominion wanted Kabrel). Anyway, the section I'm editing is currently written as follows:
quote:
The most security surrounded a single starship, USS Prometheus. What was known at the time was mostly about its appearance: a one-off cruiser-sized vessel some 415 meters in length, with sixteen decks, with a quartet of warp nacelles in an X-form layout and a modern pointed-arrowhead-shape primary hull blending into a linear secondary hull. Much of the remaining data surrounding the ship was heavily classified at the time, and still remains so, but in 2402 limited declassification filled in some gaps. Prometheus was built in 2372 as a testbed for something called "multi-vector assault": the ship was actually composed of three sections, each warp-capable on its own and able to operate independently of each other. The sections could coordinate their attacks, either manually by a minimal crew from the main bridge atop the one designated "Alpha" or by computer control. The idea was that this single ship could become a small flotilla of light, maneuverable, and heavily-armed starships to swarm and overpower an enemy. The original proposal called for a total of 25 of the ships (75 segments in all) as anti-Borg defenders; unknown circumstances killed the project after the initial prototype NX-74913. Some mission data was included in the declassification, but much of the details have been redacted. What is publicly known about the ship's wartime career is that it was involved in several clandestine missions in the latter half of the war near Romulan space and deep within Dominion-held territory.
So yeah, definitely merit in some of your ideas.

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Guardian 2000
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I'd still prefer the Redneck Prometheus . . . Just take a Saber and hook two more behind it in a train via tow straps.

As for what possible value the ship could have, given the aforementioned tripling that would make the total ship a hopelessly massive mess compared to a single-vessel design, I think great warp speed or endurance would have to be the assumption . . . as also suggested in the episode. Much as Intrepids were built as troubleshooters with speed and combat performance in mind, this would presumably be the next level . . . a rapid-response ship that could also be a fleet unto itself.

The name gives no real clues. Prometheus is known for creating man, stealing fire to give to him, and then eternal torment by an eagle while chained to a rock. Unless the ship was built for odd heists or going against eagles, I get nothing.

On the other hand, there is another reference to Greek that Voyager is known for . . . Omega. Starfleet's experiments were in the 23rd Century, IIRC, so any one section would likely be a match for such ships in speed and armament, while getting onsite quickly enough . . . per Janeway, the directive specified that there would be a special team sent under normal circumstances. Certainly a vessel like Prometheus would be useful.

But, that's a helluva stretch, connection-wise.

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Shik
There's a million things I haven't done, but just you wait
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I think the name was random; the episode's writer probably didn't know there already was one & no one corrected them.

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Lee
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My assumption always was that Prometheus-class ships were intended to be deep-space explorers which could use MVAM to become a mini-fleet if one ever encountered a threat out there, far from anybody who could help.

Don't ask me where I got that idea from. I checked on Memory Alpha, and it says the ship is designed for "deep space tactical assignments" so...

*record scratch* Wait, what? What does that even mean?

Deep space, OK, that pretty much means what we think (MA definition: "The term deep space described areas of space that were at the extent, or beyond, one's own star system, territory, or furthest point of exploration").

We also know there were deep space vessels {in the "Timeless" alternate reality, Harry Kim signs onto such a vessel to search for the wreck of Voyager; Admiral Hayes also sends two deep space vessels towards Voyager, to rendezvous in 5-6 years). But we don't know anything about what sort of vessels these were. As far as I can determine, no known Starfleet class has ever been canonically described as being for deep space exploration. Not even the TOS Enterprise, whose five-year mission closest matches any idea of what a deep space exploration mission might look like (and, in DSC Pike suggests something along the lines that Enterprise's mission kept them well out of the Klingon war).

So what the hell is a deep-space tactical assignment? Surely any assignment that might entail or result in combat can be classed as tactical? It seems unlikely that Prometheus-class ships would be despatched as backup for existing deep space vessels given the distances and the timescales deep space exploration missions operate under - the above cited ships were being sent 5-6 years out, remember, meaning another 5-6 years back; and when Hayes said that, Voyager was still in the DQ and, what, 50 to 70 thousand LY away - I can't remember how much had been shaved off the total 70K LY by the time of the ep in question, "Life Line."

And, if you know you're sending a ship out to get into a fight, why just send one even if it's really three-in-one?

So in conclusion, maybe I'm right after all (!). The class only makes sense as a deep-space explorer. It'd explain the luxuriousness of the fittings as compared to, say, the Defiant. The ability to become three vessels is an element of surprise with a short shelf life for most of the Federation's immediate threats, and for fighting the Borg it's utterly nonsensical given we've never seen any evidence that swarming attacks present any advantage against them.

On another note, though, I've always wondered what happens if just the middle part of the ship gets destroyed, would the two remaining bist still fit together?

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Shik
There's a million things I haven't done, but just you wait
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quote:
Originally posted by Lee:
On another note, though, I've alway wondered what happens if just the middle part of the ship gets destroyed, would the two remaining bist still fit together?

Always wondered that myself.

Your theories have excellent merit as well, & I'll definitely give them a think-through for possible use.

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Lee
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Bist? Bits, dammit!

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MinutiaeMan
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Interesting thoughts on the vague “deep space tactical assignments” meaning. That being said, we also have Deep Space 9, which isn’t all that far out considering how the series developed. In this case I suspect deep space just means beyond Federation borders or behind the front lines.

I still think there’s a strong argument for non-tactical uses... having an explorer that can cover multiple systems more quickly would be a great idea in theory. Then the Borg threat develops, they latch on to the idea of MVAM as a way to counter the Borg’s adaptation advantages.

I think the surprise aspect would be minimal. Most military surprises literally only work once, and even then rarely work the way the designers planned. And the Borg wouldn’t really care at all.

Combine that with the fact that Prometheus’s more sensible hull number (NX-74913, which Shik is using), implies it started design or build work around the same time as the Intrepid class, but is clearly not even ready for production when we first saw it kn screen since MVAM hadn’t been tested. That implies at least 5 years’ delay in designing, building, and testing the Prometheus.

That’s part of why I think the ship started out life with one purpose, was coopted for fighting the Borg, delaying the building as it was redesigned, and then MVAM had growing pains. Probably they’d only recently launched it for a precommissioning shakedown it when the Romulans hijacked it.

Add to that the fact we saw the Prometheus again in “Endgame.” Not in deep space on the borders, but in the Sol system. That implies it’s still undergoing testing at Utopia Planitia, or something. (Assuming the one we saw isn’t a second ship of the class. I don’t like that idea but it bears mentioning.)

We can make up whatever reasons we want for why it wasn’t as successful. I would propose that it was a partial success, actually... the automation systems clearly worked pretty well. But the core concept of multiple hulls and their redundant systems would prove too inefficient and ineffective to warrant class production.

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Guardian 2000
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If it was a special-purpose deep-space troubleshooter, there wouldn't necessarily be many of them anyway.

As for the middle section gettin' blowed up real good, that's a definite concern. As wild as it is to have the two sections with real nacelles be able to operate them in two different modes, why not a third where the top and bottom are the only available parts? Yikes. The ship would always need a Tau Ceti traveler to make the wavy rainbow ribbons do the right things.

But, playing around with a SketchUp model I still have where the three parts can separate, there actually is overlap available . . . the 3-views of the CGI model seem to confirm this idea. (Note the overlap of the bottom section on the dorsal part of the top's blue-lit impulse deck). In principle, there could be sufficient room for auxiliary clamping. It isn't like we need to have much area available (cough TOS Constitution cough), and if there were special-purpose clamps needed for this . . . well, hell's bells, it isn't like this ship isn't already full of extraneous wanky crap.

I mean, the ship would look dumber, what with a big missing triangular prism, and I have no idea how the turboshafts would work, but it could certainly be adequate for an escape of the top section without relying on those ridiculous pop-out mini-nacelles.

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Lee
I'm a spy now. Spies are cool.
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I've been wondering what a Starfleet deep space exploration (DSE) vessel would even look like. How do we know we've ever seen one? Perhaps like the Explorer class vessels in B5, you never see them because they're way out on or beyond the, er, rim.

I have been able to think of one ship by name, anyway: the USS Olympia, from DS9's "The Sound of her Voice." That went off on a 8-year mission into the Beta Quadrant in 2363, returning 2371. And yet nobody in that ep (set in 2374) thought to look up the ship and notice it was three years late, but don't get me started...

And then - bear with me here - I got to thinking, why do some ships have four nacelles anyway, when two obviously does most of the time (let's not worry about one- and three-nacelled ships for now)? Increased speed (and duration of same) would appear to be a factor, going by the Prometheus. So maybe having two sets of nacelles gives you increased redundancy, something you'd want when you're literal years of travel from the nearest dry dock. And, while four nacelles presumably gives you all sorts of added options in terms of warp field geometries, I don't see any reason why you couldn't power down one set and just run on one, even alternating the pairs for downtime and maintenance.

So let's hypothesize that "Deep space explorer ships have four nacelles." Let's review what those are:

- The Prometheus-class
- The Cheyenne-class
- The Constellation-class
- There are also four-nacelled Excelsior and Prometheus study models, which may have appeared in the Wolf 359 scenes, but I feel it's safe to ignore them from serious discussion though might return to them in a minute.
- In DSC there are also the Cardenas and Nimitz classes, but do we really want to go there? I don't!

So, the Cheyenne. It's one of a small club of Starfleet ships that have just two examples known, the presumed class ship and one example of the class (the USS Ahwahnee). It's always fascinated me a bit (I have my eye on an Eaglemoss model on eBay). Given its rarity, I could easily headcanon it (God, how I hate this term, why am I using it so much?) as being a deep space explorer hastily called into action for the Borg incursion.

[Using the same logic, the Nebula & Excelsior study models might represent actual DSEs or concept proving grounds for same]

The Constellation is more interesting, for obvious reasons. It's a very old design, and doesn't strike one as being very fast - though in its day it might have been (Chinook helicopters don't strike anybody as anything but cumbersome and ungainly, but those suckers can BOOK). And we know of quite a few examples of this class, though from TNG where they're all in secondaryish roles.

But imagine if the Stargazer was a deep space xplorer? The evidence is compelling:

- Picard was captain of her for a LONG time, 22 years I think? A few DSE missions of the best part of a decade each might explain that. For context, imagine that since 1998 when most of us who were here then started using Flare in its current form, but having the exact same job all that time...
- He was promoted from Lt. (or Lt. Cdr.?) straight to captain, as we all know; suppose that was partly down to their being a long way from home so a new commander had to be found immediately?
- Even assuming he commanded some other ship between 2355 and 2364, there has to be some reason he landed the plum gig as captain of the flagship; a prestigious job as a DSE mission commander would play into that.
- In one episode he attends a conference on the psychological effects of deep-space exploration missions. Might that not suggest he has some proor knowledge of the subject?

Just a bit of idle speculation on my part, what else is there to do in lockdown?

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Shik
There's a million things I haven't done, but just you wait
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That's kind of what I did with Constellation. I postulated that it began the same time as Excelsior, with that class being a showcase of new tech, new drives, new looks, all that & Constellation being the neglected cruiser that had to make do with what was available while its sibling got all the good stuff This is what I wrote; no edits have been entered yet:
quote:
In the interim, work proceeded on the other "off the shelf" cruiser class. Both new classes addressed the problem of a frontier so expanded that transit to and from the interior core of the Federation was becoming problematic. Speed was definitely necessary to a solution: Excelsior was now betting its farm on transwarp drive with all the hopes and dreams associated with it; the second starship had to make do with what was available, with all the attendant problems that engineers and theorists had been struggling with for years. When the project was authorized in 2277 under the name Constellation, it was already evident thatExcelsior would be receiving the lion's share of support, publicity, and research. This, too, somewhat mirrored the relationship between the Supercruiser classes after production began. Rivalry often breeds innovation, however, which certainly became the case in this situation. From the outset, Constellation design teams shunned anything even remotely useable as a possible solution by their counterparts working on Excelsior, sometime to the extreme. The final design created by the project engineers completely encapsulated this philosophy.

The problem faced by the team was the same as their rivals: creation of a larger cruiser for extended deep-space missions with increased speeds and ranges. Since traditional solutions to the problem had not been fruitful, and the limitation of using only currently available systems had been imposed, non-traditional concepts were the only avenue left to them. To increase volume, rather than describing larger hulls had previously been done, Constellation was actually made smaller than other proposals, with a 310-meter length comparable to Constitution's 305 meters (and much less than Excelsior's projected 460). Rather than the usual dual-hull arrangement, the designers used the Sentinel ships and the new Knox-class as touchstones for ways to increase hull volume without increasing size appreciably. A decision was made to keep the ship as a saucer-only configuration; volume problems were solved by thickening the saucer by two decks at its widest point and adding an outer ring section, which tapered in a truncated teardrop shape to the stern. Study of current warp theories and creation of radically modified field envelope control software allowed the designers to give Constellation a brand-new never-before-possible warp configuration. Instead of the usual twin-nacelle tandem configuration, Constellation mounted four nacelles, in a two-up/two-down arrangement. This was paired with a twin impulse system—two standard decks mounted port and starboard, on a 90-degree change of standard orientation—and an uprated linear intermix reactor system. The warp core was able to supply power to either upper or lower pairs of nacelles for standard cruising, or to both sets at once for faster speeds albeit at greatly increased consumption rates. Sensor systems, scanning equipment, and other mission-swappable instrumentation were placed within external blisters to conserve space for habitable volume within the hull. In every possible way, Constellation was the anti-Excelsior: short, stumpy, clunky, and ungainly, taking the current fleet aesthetic and pushing it to its extremes as opposed to the naturally evolved smooth, sweeping, pleasing new design lines of its brother class. Placed side by side, the two could not possibly have beenmore different.



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"I never agreed with Jefferson once—we have fought on like seventy-five different fronts. But when all is said & all is done...Jefferson HAS beliefs; Burr has none."

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Shik
There's a million things I haven't done, but just you wait
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With Cheyenne, I decided to make it a modular corvette concept, the idea being you could mix & match saucers & drive sections, clicking them together like toys parts. Again, the as-written part with no edits yet applied:

quote:
Cheyenne was first in 2338, the most radical in design, taking the modular corvette concept begun with Citizen to an extreme form. Easy swapping of external components such as
bridge modules had been commonplace for nearly a century, while internal mission module replacement had been a recent innovation. Cheyenne looked to simplify these processes by making the whole starship mission-swappable: not only could the bridge section be easily replaced but the entire saucer or engineering section could be exchanged, locking into place via a plug-and-play format made possible by an early form of modular docking latch system later modified for use in Galaxy-class explorers. The belief was that this system would allow an entire array of ships to be created & modified as needed for any mission—in theory, an entire ship could be swapped out for a totally new one. Saucers would be built complete and unchanging for a variety of mission types and engineering sections constructed to support long-range or short-term tasks as needed. In reality, however, this was rarely used as the costs of supplying the various types of components to such a large area of operation meant the idea soon became prohibitive, and ships often stayed in the same configuration for their whole service lives or had a module swap once or twice in emergency situations. The most common configuration became the four-nacelled version for courier, scout, and escort duties; much rarer were the ships with a twin-engine/secondary hull arrangement or extra sensor pods or weapons, many of which were eventually refit to the quad-engine standard. Drawbacks in module replacement did not otherwise prevent Cheyennes from performing their assigned missions admirably, however. The quad-nacelle configuration boosted speeds to Warp 9.12 (1588 c), making the ships well suited for deep space support missions. Some vessels using that engineering section were paired with a thicker nine-deck saucer, replacing the standard five-deck module, equipped with expanded research facilities and crew spaces for investigative missions and associated personnel. These variants were colloquially referred to as "exploratory scouts" despite being much larger than the average scout ship due to their ability to and mission orientation towards long-range deep space survey operations.



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"I never agreed with Jefferson once—we have fought on like seventy-five different fronts. But when all is said & all is done...Jefferson HAS beliefs; Burr has none."

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Lee
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Great minds, eh? Concur with your Constellation thoughts. With the Cheyenne, well, with so little to go on it's a wide-open field. I THINK I follow what you're saying, the whole design is modular so it wouldn't always be a quad-nacelle? Where are the warp cores, though? in the saucer? Because it feels like such a concept would be too-resource expensive, requiring each saucer component to have too much inside and various extra nacelle sections to be potentially just going spare. I can see how they might trial such a concept, but its limitations would soon become evident.

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