Death penalty -- good, bad? Why or why not?
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Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS!
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
Well, with him, you'd sure get alot more.
"No guns, but the chair is good."
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Equality, Cooperation & Benevolence.
Vote Communist Party of America 2000.
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Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS!
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
Crime is consistantly lower in places where the death penalty is enforced.
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Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"
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Stupid bastards and religious freaks,
so safe in their castle keeps...
However... the rate of recidivism (that is, people who go on to commit other crimes after being released from jail) is roughly 80%.
but...
The rate of recidivism after a visit to 'the chair' is, Wes Craven movies aside, exactly 0%.
'The chair' is a complete and utter guarantee that the person who has committed the crimes for which he was sentenced will NEVER do anything to harm others EVER again. As such it is COMPLETELY effective.
HOWEVER!
I have some disagreement as to the ways in which the state-run death penalty is carried out, the crimes for which one is slain, and such, and the way in which it is determined who shall die and who shall live, for committing similar crimes. As these issues stand, I do have some disagreement with the death penalty. However, someone whose guilt is completely certain should by all means 'fry.'
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns
Two, how many people who get sentenced to life without parole actually get that?
Three, what's the point of keeping them alive? By killing someone, by, say, dragging them behind a truck, for an example, they've forfeited their rights, and therefore that should not be a consideration. The question is what's best for the rest of society. So we have the choice of funding someone's food, medicine, and education for four or five decades, or we can fund a couple megawatts of power. Tough choice.
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Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"
As to it being a deterrent to future crime, let's see... If he's dead, he won't commit any more crimes! Simple! Plus, if we dragged Old Sparky out from the storage bin and actually showed the dregs of society what an elecrocution looks like, I suspect things might be a tad different.
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Everything in life I ever needed to know I learned from The Simpsons.
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"You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend."
-Yasir Arafat on religious wars
"Megawatts of power"..gives me an idea. Hook up a shitload of exercise bikes to generators. Make the cons ride them.
Remember when "prisoner" meant "free slave labor?"
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"Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much."
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love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.
I'd reply with an ad-homenium (however the fuck you spell it), but I'm too mature for that. You don't like my opinions? Tough fucking luck. You wanna blast me for 'em, be my fucking guest. 'Cuz guess what? The death penalty is NOT a deterent, and it costs a HELL of a lot more then keeping someone in jail for life. Not to mention that the "Texecutioner" and his brother in Florida like to put innocents to death.
Now, read on and I shall demonstrate, you of Omegainsm.
Let me start off by saying that:
EXECUTION IS NOT A REAL SOLUTION, WE CAN DO BETTER!
Yes, we fucking can.
Herrara v Collins: US Supreme Court ruled that it is Constitutional to execute an innocent person if they have been convicted in a fair trial. This means: if you're arrested for a murder, and executed, and then new evidence shows up proving you DIDN'T do it: guess what? Your murder was still legal.
We'll use Florida as an example for this one. It costs 6 million to use the death penalty (appeals and all), but only 600,000 dollars to incarcirate them for life. Geeee, it only costs TEN times as much to kill them. Hmmm ...
82% of all persons executed since 1977 were convicted of killing a white person, despite the fact that over 50% of all violent crimes victims are of color. Hmmm, anyone see racism here? We're more willing to kill someone for killing a white then killing a black, or an Asian, or so on.
Even death penalty proponents now concede that executions DO NOT deter others from committing murder. Matter o' fact, murders committed by people hoping to be caught and executed are on the increase.
Politicians claim to be tough on crime by supporting the death penalty. Are they aware that 94$ of all CJ dollars are spent AFTER the crime and not on prevention?
Public surveys show that support for the death penalty DROPS below 50% when offered the possibility of life without parole for 25 years plus restitution to the victim's family.
In Texas, David Lynn Carpenter was sentenced to death after a trial convicting him for the murder of a Dallas woman, despite the fact that DNA TESTS proved the physical descriptiopn of the murderer is NOT DAVID!
More on Texas:
-has executed more than 17 people this year alone
-most famous, the murder of Odell Barnes:
a) journalists investigating the case found evidence suggesting Barnes was not guilty of said murder ...
b) the blood-preservative expert who tested the victim's blood against blood found on Odell's clothes said that the blood "could only have appeared there by being planted or accidently spilled."
c) even Police Detective Bill Pursley agrees that "there were parts of the crime scene that if you read the books today, you could look back and say, 'boy, did we do that wrong.'
d) Odell was murdered by the State of Texas and Governor George W. Bush on March 1st.
Are you aware that, in the ENTIRE world, 85% of executions took place in: China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Democratic Republic of the Congo ... and the United States of America ...
Guess what? For all our condemnation of human rights abuses, we're grouped right in with them. And we even EXCEL by taking the #1 position of "known executions of child offenders (prisoners who were under 18 years old at the time of the crime)"
Florida LEADS THE NATION, in # of people sentenced to death ... then RELEASED after being found INNOCENT or having recieved an unfair trial (Texas is tied for 3rd with Oklahoma in this category)
Jeb Bush's solution? Support legislation limiting the death row appeals ... execute them within 5 years ...
On average, a wrongly-convicted (read: innocent) prisoner is on death row 7 years before new evidence comes to light to free them.
Hmmmm.
Me thinks Jeb wants to kill the innocent men before they get freed and make his record look bad.
And Omega? Why don't you open your mouth and ... well, I'm sure you know what I'm going to say ...
Texas/Florida Executions
CitizensUnitedAgainstDeathPenalty
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Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS!
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Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
Who has to get paid for an appeal to take place? The Judge, stenographer, couple lawyers. Why should that cost anything unusual?
Sol:
Well, we don't execute people unless we're as sure as humanly possible that they did commit the crime. DNA and all that.
JK:
"I'd reply with an ad-homenium, but I'm too mature for that."
Could have fooled me...
"You don't like my opinions? Tough fucking luck."
What makes you think I give a darn about your opinions? I just don't like you spreading misinformation. Your opinion is that execution is not a deterent. The fact is that it is. Therefore, your opinion is wrong. Don't like it? Tough luck.
"Not to mention that the "Texecutioner" and his brother in Florida like to put innocents to death."
Name an example. You're being spoon-fed again. The liberals and the media are trying to make you think exactly that, without giving ONE instance where it wasn't unequivocably prooven that someone put to death under the Bush administration was guilty. Don't you realize you're being manipulated?
"This means: if you're arrested for a murder, and executed, and then new evidence shows up proving you DIDN'T do it: guess what? Your murder was still legal."
Makes sense to me.
A: it ain't murder if it's legal. Get over it.
B: name a time in, oh, the last thirty years where someone has been executed for a crime that they were later prooven not to have commited.
"It costs 6 million to use the death penalty (appeals and all), but only 600,000 dollars to incarcirate them for life."
I believe I'll ask for a source for that.
"82% of all persons executed since 1977 were convicted of killing a white person, despite the fact that over 50% of all violent crimes victims are of color."
Violent crimes and murder are completely seperate categories. Irrelevant statistics. How many MURDER VICTIMS are white? Seems kinda odd that 82% of executed murderers killed a white person, when white people make up 85% of the population. Amazingly close, wouldn't you say? Although you might want to look up that book "More Guns, Less Crime". It had something about that, as I recall. Or maybe it was "Hating Whitey, and Other Progressive Causes"... Oh, check them both out. They're both good.
"Even death penalty proponents now concede that executions DO NOT deter others from committing murder. Matter o' fact, murders committed by people hoping to be caught and executed are on the increase."
Source? Regardless of your source, how do you explain that there are significantly fewer murders in states with the death penalty? Ten to one you can't.
"Are they aware that 94$ of all CJ dollars are spent AFTER the crime and not on prevention?"
Of course. How would you suggest that a police officer prevent someone from breaking into my home when they're only called after he's in? Prevention is on my end. Insert gun plug here.
"Public surveys show that support for the death penalty DROPS below 50% when offered the possibility of life without parole for 25 years plus restitution to the victim's family."
I'd like to see those surveys. It wouldn't surprise me to know that they're the same ones that showed Clinton winning by twenty points in '96...
"In Texas, David Lynn Carpenter was sentenced to death after a trial convicting him for the murder of a Dallas woman, despite the fact that DNA TESTS proved the physical descriptiopn of the murderer is NOT DAVID!"
This says nothing. When was this? Was he actually executed? Released on appeal? That last phrase didn't make all that much sense, but I'll take a stab at it anyway. DNA doesn't tell you the physical description. That's not how it works. You match the DNA itself.
"[Texas] has executed more than 17 people this year [a]lone"
Your point being?
"d) Odell was murdered by the State of Texas and Governor George W. Bush on March 1st."
Uh, no. Again, it isn't murder if it's legal.
Under any circumstances, how can you blame that on Bush? It's not like he has the authority to stop an execution.
"Are you aware that, in the ENTIRE world, 85% of executions took place in: China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Democratic Republic of the Congo ... and the United States of America ..."
This tells us nothing. For all we know, the majority of those 85% took place in those other countries, and we got 5%. This also makes the base assumption that execution is a bad idea. Another book you might want to look up is called "How to Lie with Statistics". Might help you be more discerning.
"Guess what? For all our condemnation of human rights abuses, we're grouped right in with them."
Again, you're making an unwarranted assumption.
"Florida LEADS THE NATION, in # of people sentenced to death ... then RELEASED after being found INNOCENT or having recieved an unfair trial (Texas is tied for 3rd with Oklahoma in this category)"
Good. That means the appeals process works.
"Jeb Bush's solution? Support legislation limiting the death row appeals ... execute them within 5 years ..."
Now that doesn't sound like a very good idea on the face of it. Unless, of course, they get the same number of appeals.
*reads site*
I thought I heard the sound of copy and paste...
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Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"
I seriously doubt the validity of the claim that a man was executed after DNA evidence proved him innocent. That tends to happen on Television, which we know is an unreal domain. Probably some essential facts or legal wrangling was left out, much as it has ben in the recently sensationalized Texas executions.
The funny thing is, people who are against the death penalty tend to be just as vehement as the 'right-to-lifers...' but are almost always opposed on that issue. (That is, they tend to be pro-abortion.)
Weird.
I guess it only matters WHEN you kill them.
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
Don't you think that a society that solves it's problems by killing people has something fundamentally wrong at it's heart?
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"If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS
Its really sad that YOU'RE the one spreading misinformation about the death penalty. I mean, all the people murdered in Texas, you'd think there'd be no crime! Instead, everyone needs to pack a gun ...
Would someone kindly explain to me how murder is not a violent crime?
People innocent and executed?
Roy Stewart
Jesse Tafero
Willie Darden
David Spence
Odell Barnes, jr
Ellis Felker
Walter Blair
Roger Coleman
Joseph O'Dell
Leonel Herrera
Robert Nelson Drew
Barry Fairchild
Jesse Jacobs (my fav -- someone else was later convicted for the EXACT SAME CRIME! Too late for Jesse, he was already murdered by the state!)
You can find out more information about these innocent men executed by their government HERE
Enough for you, Omega?
The abotion issue is completely different. The Democratic stance is that it is a matter of PRIVACY, and the CHOICE of the woman in question, and only the woman in question.
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Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS!
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Gore/Lieberman 2000
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"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited November 01, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited November 01, 2000).]
You're teachers must not have liked you all that much. You don't listen very well. That might explain your apparent incapacity to use a dictionary to look up "murder".
"Would someone kindly explain to me how murder is not a violent crime?"
Again, you're not paying attention. To spell it out: IINM, murder is not classified under violent crimes, instead getting it's own category. Therefore, any statistics relating to violent crime are irrelevant in a discussion about murder. Clear enough?
"The abotion issue is completely different. The Democratic stance is that it is a matter of PRIVACY, and the CHOICE of the woman in question, and only the woman in question."
No, it's not. It's the state-sanctioned end of a human life, same as execution. With the exception that abortion is ALWAYS the end of an innocent life. If you'd like me to proove that, after about six weeks, the child is clinically alive, that can be arranged.
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Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"
See, another reason they like me, is that I question authority. They told me that killing an innocent man if he had been convicted of a crime he didn't do was legal, and I said, the HELL IT IS.
Murder is illegal killing. If you are innocent and executed for the crime you have committed, you are being murdered. Yes, the Supreme Court ruled that those were legal ... but we're talking about killing innocent men. Sorry, that is murder. Whenever an innocent man is killed for a crime he did NOT commit, he has been murdered.
On abortion, briefly: sorry, Omega. The Republican point of view is that abortion is murder. The Democratic point of view is that it is a woman's choice (and only a woman's choice).
Are you saying a woman can't be trusted with a choice?
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Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS!
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
The child is alive. Beyond around six weeks, that's unequivocable, and you can make a darn good argument before that. The QUESTION is whether a woman has a right to kill a living child.
The answer is "no".
Care to make an argument as to why the child doesn't have a right to live, like any other innocent human being?
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Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"
That's not much of a statement. One could arge that it's possible that John Wilkes Booth was under the influence of spacemen during the Lincoln assassination, too, but that doesn't make it so.
Or another example.. since Mumia Abu Jamal is incarcerated close to hear, and I'm constantly hearing about his case from various local and national groups, I studied the case from both angles.
I was almost convinced of the case for innocence... until I checked into some of the facts. Every option put out so far is based on unreliable dats, people 'changing their minds' years after testifying, innacurate interpretations of evidence, and clear desperation.
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
Let me spell this out for you:
It is not for me an individual (or you, an individual), to decide for a woman what is (or is not) a *private* matter involving ... well, herself. She'll have to live with her actions for the rest of her life ... and frankly, perhaps she'll choose to have the baby. We can give her the info on aborting and keeping the child, but in the end, there can be only one ...
An attempt at humor =)
In the end, the choice is hers alone. Now, myself, I feel that a woman should have the option of an abortion for the first three months, then she wouldn't be able to (this is an extra 6 weeks atop of what you want).
I can't make the argument that a child doesn't have a right to exist. Why not? Well, it doesn't involve me, and I've no right (unlike Republicans) to go around telling people how to live their lives.
And Omega, I find it amusing that you accuse me of "spooing" from liberals. I've never heard you say anything but the Republican party line ... chapter and verse.
You defend the death penalty, but decry abortion.
I decry the death penalty, and my moral stand on abortion is a private one, while I respect the woman's right to privacy.
Regarding Mumia Abu Jamal: I haven't followed the case, and I've made no assertions of his innocence.
"Cases where a person has been executed despite evidence of innocence (weight of the evidence is subject to dispute}
"
Joseph O'Dell (I mean, come on, the sperm in the victim's body wasn't even HIS! Also, no evidence matched his personal effects, and *someone else confessed*! The FBI themselves addmitted the testing was flawed.
Leonel Herrera - "presented affidavits and positive polygraph results from a variety of witnesses, including an eyewitness to the murder and a former Texas state judge, both of whom stated that someone else committed the crime. The supreme court ruled that innocence alone does not justify a federal hearing on this evidence now was federal habeas relief available for *mere* innocence."
Barry Fairchild - Sentenced to death for kidnap, rape, and shooting murder of Marjorie Mason. Conviction based on videotaped "confession" ... blood, hair, semen didn't link to Fairchild. 13 other black men questioned by Pulaski County police were subjected to extreme physical and mental torture. Michael Johnson states "he heard Fairchild's screams and noises similar to beating using a baseball bat."
In another category, Jess Jacobs was *convicted* and *sentenced* to death ... then the state convicted another man for the same crime ... and *left him on death row!*
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Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS!
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited November 01, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited November 01, 2000).]
So it's a private matter when one person decides to kill another person? When did this happen?
"I've never heard you say anything but the Republican party line ... chapter and verse."
But I'm informed about it. I know what I'm talking about. You don't. I come to conclusions independently. You copy/paste straight from liberal websites, without a shred of thought. A monkey could do that.
"You defend the death penalty, but decry abortion."
And you do the exact opposite. I defend the lives of innocent children. You defend the lives of vicious criminals. I claim that a serial murderer has no right to live, by virtue of violating the rights of others. You claim that a blameless child has no right to live, by virtue of... what? Being inside it's mother?
What's wrong with this picture?
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Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"
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Equality, Cooperation & Benevolence.
Vote Communist Party of America 2000.
[This message has been edited by Ultra Magnus (edited November 01, 2000).]
"It is not for me an individual (or you, an individual), to decide for a woman what is (or is not) a PRIVATE matter involving ...well, herself."
What about the kid? If your mother decided to shoot your brains out today, would that be okay, because it's "a private matter involving herself"? Or is your arguement that, since the child is still connected to its mother, it's still part of the mother? If that's the case, what happens if one member of a set of conjoined twins decides to off its other half because it's tired of living that way and doesn't want to wait around to be surgically separated? I mean, that's what an abortion is. Some mother is so fucking selfish that she'd kill her own child, rather than go through a few months of discomfort.
Oh, BTW, I don't think you can make the arguement that abortion is legal because the child isn't a life unto itself. From what I understand, if someone hits a pregnant woman in the abdomen and causes a miscarriage, they are charged, not w/ simply injuring the mother, but w/ the killing of the child. So, legally, the child is considered a separate person. Therefore, abortion is state-sanctioned infanticide.
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"Yeah...apparently Sizer is very hard to say, so they replace it with 'Is Mr. Caeser home?'
Sometimes I'll say that no, he has, in fact, passed away.
'My apologies.'
'Oh, that's ok, I'm over it. Brutus is still a wreck though.'
Then I hang up."
-Simon Sizer on telemarketers, 1-Nov-2000
I make no moral judgements against the mother, it is up to her, and God'll judge her later. Am I condoning it? No. I'm staying out of it.
Am I personally in favor of abortion? No. Am I going to get involved? Unless I'm the potential father, its none of my business. And for those of you against abortion, have YOU ever gotten involved? How many days have you gone to abortion centers and protested? Because if you haven't, you've really got no place to judge me.
Omega: I think you're jealous 'cuz I have websites and reputible magazines to quote from, and you pull numbers out of your quite considerable ass. You may be well informed, but only on the Republican slant, and you ONLY speak the party line, I haven't seen you say anything that goes against the Party Line, so I wouln't speak about others doing the same. Again, you're being rather hipocritical.
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Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS!
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
quote:
JeffKardde
It costs 6 million to use the death penalty (appeals and all), but only 600,000 dollars to incarcirate them for life.Omega:
I believe I'll ask for a source for that.
While I'm not sure about the actual numbers, in my senior American Government class we were discussing the pros and cons of the death penalty. It's a fact that the death penalty is much more expensive than life in prison.
This is really a tough subject, you can't say anything without pissing someone off. I can't even make up my own mind.
I recommend watching A Time to Kill. Basically a black man (Samuel L Jackson) kills two white rednecks who raped his 10-year old daughter then tried to kill her. But the thing is, he does it in a court house in front of a bunch cops, innocent bystanders, and the media. The point is, should be given the death penatly for killing the men that raped and nearly killed his daughter?
I agree with Jeff, executing an innocent person is murder and wrong. However, it's not like he was found innocent but killed anyway.
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Calvin: "Isn't that weird?? If computers can think, what will people be better at than machines?"
Hobbes: "Irrational behavior."
This post is sponsored in part by the Federation Starship Datalink
I'm sorry. I can't believe what an idiot I am. Your way is much better than mine. Please tell me what I should do to be more like you? Please help me save myself
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Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS!
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
I think this whole argument is funny, for a few simple reasons.
JeffK: Irrational, emotional, and stubborn, with many contradicting opinions with himself.
Omega: Peudo-Logical, repetitive, and stubborn, repetitive, deaf, repetitive and repetitive.
It's like two stones fighting. Or glasses of water. With no wind, of course.
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Equality, Cooperation & Benevolence.
Vote Communist Party of America 2000.
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"The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."
--Albert Eistein
"Abortions for SOME....miniature American flags for ALL!!"
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"Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much."
[This message has been edited by Shik (edited November 01, 2000).]
There is no death penalty in Europe or Canada (I think). Is crime in those places higher than in the US?
Let's play with some criminal psychology here. Two questions:
1. What kind of criminal doesn't believe he/she can get away with it when committing the act?
2. If you believed you can get away with murder, would you care what the law does to murderers, at least enough to refrain from committing the crime?
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"The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."
--Albert Eistein
"Because if you haven't, you've really got no place to judge me."
We're not judging you. We're judging your views.
"I haven't seen you say anything that goes against the Party Line..."
You really could use some lessons in logic. What's your point with this?
"...so I wouln't speak about others doing the same. Again, you're being rather hipocritical."
Um, no. I can demonstrate my views to be correct, because I arrived at them through independent thought. You can't do the same. It's can not be hypocracy when the two events aren't comparable.
"I make no moral judgements against the mother, it is up to her..."
Again, you're good at avoiding questions. Just not good enough. Answer it flat out: do you believe the mother has a right to kill her child, and if so, why?
Secondly, we're not judging the mother. Just her actions. There's a difference.
"It's a fact that the death penalty is much more expensive than life in prison."
I'd like to know why that is, personally. How could a few drugs (or bullets if you live in Utah) and a fraction of a public defender's salary cost more than feeding a man for a couple decades? Let alone paying for the guards, the electrical bill, construction of the prison itself...
JK2:
"I'm sorry. I can't believe what an idiot I am."
Oh, you left yourself wide open there, buddy.
UM:
What's wrong with being repetitive and stubborn? Pseudo-logical and deaf I object to. I object to being called deaf. But I can be repetitive sometimes. Sometimes. There's nothing wrong with being repetitive.
Tora:
"Mr. Thou-Shall-Not-Kill-Applies-Not-To-Murderers Omega."
Which is why I've gone either way on this issue in the past. The simple answer is that it's unequivocably better for society as a whole for some people to be put to death. I don't think I could personally be asked to call where the line is, but there are cases...
TZ2:
"1. What kind of criminal doesn't believe he/she can get away with it when committing the act?"
One who doesn't care whether they get caught or not. Perhaps they intend to end their own life. Perhaps any possible punishment is deemed "worth it". Basically, the vast minority of criminals. Which is probably your point.
"2. If you believed you can get away with murder, would you care what the law does to murderers, at least enough to refrain from committing the crime?"
You're suggesting that stiffer penalties have no effect on crime rates? You're ACTUALLY suggesting that? In contradiction of all statistical evidnece, no less?
But ignoring all precedent, and proceeding on a purely logical basis...
Of course the possible punishment matters to the criminal. It's a simple risk/reward formula. Any intelligent person knows that there's always a chance that they'll get caught. Is it worth spending six months in jail if I had a 5% chance of getting away with $10 mil? Assuming no moral compunctions against stealing, most would say, "Heck, yeah!" Is it worth spending fourty YEARS in prison? Probably not.
Or for a simpler example: how many parking tickets would be handed out if the fine for speeding was $2,000?
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Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"
[Spelling of "repetitive" corrected. Spelling of "repetitive corrected".]
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited November 02, 2000).]
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Equality, Cooperation & Benevolence.
Vote Communist Party of America 2000.
Let's swing this around to the other end here. You're 90 years old. You've had a stroke. A MACHINE is breathing for you. There's negligible brain activity occurring. You are, for all intents & purposes....an eggplant.
Now, in my personal beliefs, simply having functioning organs tain't life, chill'un. Somethin' needs t'be going on upstairs in the way of thought & there needs to be an expressiveness. Last time I checked, one cannot learn or "live" by said definition inside an ovarian Bastille, & I don't think there's much brain activity other than simple regulation going on in the womb...so by my definitions, I would NOT call that "life." Similarly, I don't see being the mental equivalent of a salad as being "alive." There needs t'be something THERE there.
And don't give me any of this "fingers can wiggle, they can move, heart's beating" shit. The heart still beats a short time after death, too.
------------------
"Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much."
It costs more to kill someone because of the appeals process. You're not spending $.25 on a .40 caliber round, you're spending millions to bring in a judge, jury, prosecution team, public defender if the defendent can't afford one. Electricity and power to keep the court room lighted.
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Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
I'll hug your elephant if you'll kiss my ass.
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
Same goes for court backlogs.
Law ain't like what you see on TV. these guys can drag a case out for YEARS... especially if guilt isn't really in doubt... better to help the witnesses 'forget' what they saw/heard/did.
------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
Spelling corrected. Many thanks. I corrected my spelling of "repetitive." Thank you.
Shik:
"doesn't it come down to how one defines "life?""
THANK YOU! That's EXACTLY what it comes down to. Not the mantras of "a woman can choose" and "it's a private matter", but whether the child is alive or not.
Now let's do this step by step, just so there's no confusion.
Premise 1: Death is the end of life.
Premise 2: The clinical definition of death is the point at which brain activity can no longer be detected.
Conclusion 1: Therefore, the end of life is defined by the absence of detectible brain activity.
Conclusion 2: If the end of life is defined by the end of brain activity, it would seem to follow that life itself is defined by the presence of brain activity.
Since it's possible to detect brain activity in an unborn child at around six weeks, as I recall from the last time we had this argument, it seems logical to conclude that the child is clinically alive starting at that point.
Personally, I think it's alive before that, but I can't clinically proove it, so...
------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"
I imagine things will stay a bit more stable and intelligent if we don't debate every moral issue facing America at once. Turning this into a free-for-all will mean locking.
Three points
1) The United Nations has passed motion after motion calling for the elimination of the death penalty. The UDHR calls the right to life an inalienable right (as does the US Constitution, for that matter). I won't even get started with Amnesty International's feelings on the matter. Almost every democracy in the world has banned it. IIRC, the European Union has taken steps to lock a constitutional-style blanket rule into its court systems permanently preventing any member from ever practicing the death penalty. As it stands, you can't get into the EU with capital punishment on the books, which is why the whole Kurdish resistance leader-guy in Turkey thing is stalling their EU application. It would appear that everyone in the world seems to disagree with American opinions on capital punishment. Which isn't to say that American opinions are wrong, but does make you wonder if a country full of redneck guvnors knows more than the collected opinions of some of the most intelligent experts on human rights in the world.
2) Canada has one-eighth the gun-related homicide rate of the US, and yet Canadians are more likely to live in a city over 100k people, IIRC (and, incidentally, we don't all pack those nifty concealed weapons that the NRA trumps as the greatest crime-reducer ever, but we won't go there cuz this is breaking the rule at the top of the post.) Australia, New Zealand and the EU are similarly more peaceful lands, and yet there is no death penalty. It's well-documented that in US states where there is no death penalty, the crime rates are typically lower than those where it is. No, I'll grant that Vermont mightn't be so full of drunken murderous bastards as Texas to start with, but you can't deny that there is essentially no correlation between the death penalty and lowered crime.
3) Again, citing Canada as and example, we've had several high-profile cases lately where guys were tossed in jail for twenty years or more after being convicted of first-degree murder, then subsequently cleared. (David Milgaard, Guy-Paul Morin, etc.) If they had been convicted in the US, and there's absolutely no reason to believe that the US justice system would be more likely to clear them, they;d be dead by now. Canada's justice system is by no means unjust or incapable--its just a fact of life that every court makes mistakes. Now either Bush has hit upon some sort of stash of miracle judges and miracle juries, and has, as he claims, executed no innocent people, or innocent people have been killed by the state and will continue to be killed by the state.
Omega as well as most of the rest of our right-wing contingent here makes much of government becoming oh so powerful and stripping us of our freedom. (Blasted liberal bastards!) The state apparently isn't competent enough to administer education or health care, and that doing so routinely step on the rights of the citizens. Then they turn around and say that the state is competent enough to take away a citizen's right to life.
*shrugs.* If it works for you...
------------------
"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
"you can't deny that there is essentially no correlation between the death penalty and lowered crime."
Oh, sure I can.
I've seen numbers, you've seen numbers. Whoever can post them first wins, I guess.
"The state apparently isn't competent enough to administer education or health care, and that doing so routinely step on the rights of the citizens. Then they turn around and say that the state is competent enough to take away a citizen's right to life."
Ah, but only when convicted by a jury of his peers, and only in very specific circumstances. There's a big difference between eleven people deciding the fate of one, and one person deciding the fate of a couple million.
------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"
11 people, who I've never met before, are given arguments by two people entirely looking after their own wallets, have the right to deceide whether someone lives or dies? I'm just not getting that...
------------------
"If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS
I'll find numbers. The international ones are a decent start, aren't they? The US has by far the highest murder rate among leading democracies, and is the only one with the death penalty. Explain.
------------------
"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
I don't know how some people can sit in death row SO much longer than other people, but that's kind of inhuman, like legalized torture. Of course, the whole issue is inhuman.
The death-penalty is too severe a sentence to be judged emotionally, too many people are automatically biased...
My two cents.
[This message has been edited by Nimrod (edited November 02, 2000).]
Shouldn't then, a just punishment always be as equal as possible to the crime committed? That's the fairest way of looking at it...
You rob someone, they get title to your property.
You defraud someone of 6000 dollars, you owe them that back plus 6000.
You break somebody's arm, you get yours broken.
You rape someone... well, they do that to you in prison, anyway.
You beat somebody to death, you suffer the same fate
It's ugly, but it's fair.
Since when does death = life?
As to the abortion issue.. I don't really think the issues are all that separate. I mean, they're both issues about when it should be considered legal, ethical, and moral to kill someone.
I'm in favor of the 'right to die,' in curcumstances where the dying person has willingly and clearheadedly given up their 'right' to live. This is an act intentionaly committed with clear knowledge and acceptance of the consequences.
The death penalty also deals with the consequences of acts that were willfully done. When you willfully commit yourself to a course of action whose consequences include death, you know what you're getting into at the start.
In the abortion issue, however, the person doing the dying has absolutely no say in the matter, isn't even guilty of harming anyone, but can still die at the whim of another? And you stand there and have that gall to tell me that that's MORE moral?
------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
That, or Goulags. Mother Russia had many of them, and many criminals were, erm, "given Special treatment".
------------------
Equality, Cooperation & Benevolence.
Vote Communist Party of America 2000.
Sorry, I don't believe that one bit.
If someone steals from me (people have, BTW), either my insurance'll cover it or I'll have to pay out of pocket to replace it. Sure, I wouldn't wind smashing the punk's face repeatedly into a brick wall ... but that was when it first happened. I'd just as soon let the cops deal with it now.
If someone breaks my arm, it'll heal.
If someone beats me to death ... well, you know what? I don't think I'll much give a damn, because I'd be dead, and everyone knows the dead want nothing.
"Judge not lest you be yourself judged."
Is that the quote?
To be bluntly honest, I'd prefer some sort of rehabilitation system.
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Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
I'll hug your elephant if you'll kiss my ass.
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited November 02, 2000).]
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Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
I'll hug your elephant if you'll kiss my ass.
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
""Judge not lest you be yourself judged."
Is that the quote?"
But that refers to people, not actions. It's the difference between saying "What you did was wrong," and, "You're going to Hell for what you did."
------------------
Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto.
Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think?
Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
"The simple answer is that it's unequivocably better for society as a whole for some people to be put to death. I don't think I could personally be asked to call where the line is, but there are cases..."
You can't really draw the line where a cell becomes human life, either, yet you support life on one side and death on the other. The problem is, the majority of people on death row are minorities and/or poor. Do they deserved to die more than rich whites? There is no way in hell that the death penalty can be executed fairly, because people aren't perfect. Frankly, Omega, Christians supporting death is hypocritical, period (heck, even fundies at my old church are against DP). There's no way you can justify it.
'Course, I also think the death penalty is more humane because prison is a fate worse than death.
------------------
"The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."
--Albert Eistein
I agree on that. I would certainly prefer to be put to death rather than live the next 80 or so years of my life in jail.
Which is why a jail term is such a better sentence.
------------------
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
I'll hug your elephant if you'll kiss my ass.
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
"countries with lower crime rates have no death penalty."
True, but I'm sure there are fewer murders in Uganda than there are in Britain (did I spell that right this time? ). It could easily be due to other factors. If you want real comparison, go state by state WITHIN the US.
"You can't really draw the line where a cell becomes human life, either"
I can for myself. I can use clinical definitions to proove another line. You're not compairing like values. There's a difference between "when is it alive" and "when does it deserve death". One's a moral judgement. The other's clinical and scientific.
"The problem is, the majority of people on death row are minorities and/or poor. Do they deserved to die more than rich whites?"
Ah, and race comes up again. To answer: Yes, they do. Because they commited crimes that a jury decided were worthy of death. Whereas the "rich whites" didn't. Simple as that.
You are making good points about the morality of it, though. Maybe enough to change my mind. Again.
------------------
Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto.
Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think?
Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
------------------
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
I'll hug your elephant if you'll kiss my ass.
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
quote:
Ah, and race comes up again. To answer: Yes, they do. Because they commited crimes that a jury decided were worthy of death. Whereas the "rich whites" didn't. Simple as that.
Actually, this is one of the more loopy things I've ever read from you. You should know quite well that there is more than enough minority discrimination in the justice system. I'm not going to argue any race things, because I'm feeling quite apathetic, but to believe that the Jury system allows fair and equal treatment to anyone, regardless of race, religion and perhaps most importantly, economic status, is absurd, and downright ignorant.
------------------
Equality, Cooperation & Benevolence.
Vote Communist Party of America 2000.
[This message has been edited by Ultra Magnus (edited November 02, 2000).]
Er, can someone please hit me on the head? I can't believe I just read that. I suppose you believe O.J. Simpson was innocent, too?
"One's a moral judgement. The other's clinical and scientific."
The problem is, do you think that anyone, be it 12 or 20 or 30 jurors, should have the power to decide if someone should die?
------------------
"The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."
--Albert Eistein
wait a second...
LOL!! LOL!!
There, I feel better...now back to that bridge I own in Brooklyn.
------------------
Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns
"I'm an eye for an eye kind of guy".
"So you propose a society where everyone is left blind and toothless?"
"Not everyone. Just the bad guys".
I can see both points, but I'm incapable of arguing due to something Jeff said, over my "11 people in a jury" mistake.
"Or do you guys do things differently in the south?"
South? SOUTH? As in "the southern part of the US?" As in, you think I'm a Southern US-er?
*explodes*
------------------
"If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS
I'm working on the assumption that Omega's in the south (gee, I wonder why), and since he didn't pick up on the 12-juror thing, I figured things were done a bit different "down there" ...
But, no, Liam, I don't think you're a Southerner ... well, I'm sure to the Scots you're a Southerner, being in England and all.
How many people do you have in a jury in England, anyway?
------------------
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
I'll hug your elephant if you'll kiss my ass.
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
Not a bad guess. Even though it's stereotyping. Which is something I thought liberals in general claimed to abhor.
Tennessee.
Ziyal:
I find you to be the only one trying to make legitimate points in this argument. Therefore, after the above, I shall address only you in this post.
Of course, the first half of your post was kinda pointless. Why can no one seem to accept the simple fact that more black people commit crimes? Again, to any reader: check out "Hating Whitey, and Other Progressive Causes".
And I couldn't care less about OJ. Not that it mattered whether he did it or not, since there was at least one woman on that jury that would have voted "not guilty" simply because he was black. Now tell me that the justice system is biased towards whites.
Anyway, back to subject: as I say, you make a good point. What group of humans has the right to determine that another life is unsalvagable? I feel like there's an answer, but I can't put my finger on it. Thus, as of now, I am undecided on the issue.
Good job, Ziyal. The others could learn a lot from you.
------------------
Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto.
Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think?
Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
Was it stereotyping? Sorta, except you have to realize I've lived my whole life in the Northeastern U.S., and am very well aware that we have 12-person juries up here (having served on one).
Now, what other options does that leave? South and west, really. And as you're such a big "Dubya" supporter, I actually pegged you as a Texan. But, hey, I got the south part correct ...
Now, true, again, the "11-member jury" was a misstatement on yours and Liam's part, but you can understand why I would draw the conclusion that you didn't live in the Northeastern United States.
------------------
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
I'll hug your elephant if you'll kiss my ass.
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
YEEE--HAWW!!!!!
Lerlene! Come an' git mah shotgun fo' me. Thar's some so't of liberal out thar prowlin', an' ah's gonna make him unnerstan' th' second ammendment! Fry mah hide!
------------------
Equality, Cooperation & Benevolence.
Vote Communist Party of America 2000.
...oh, wait. You were joking, weren't you?
------------------
Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto.
Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think?
Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
And.. .isn't he LOSING there?
It's a bad sign when you can't carry your home state...
------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
Might want to wait until the Tuesday results are in.
------------------
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
I'll hug your elephant if you'll kiss my ass.
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
------------------
"If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS
------------------
Death before Dishonor!
However Dishonor has
quite a disputed defintion.
Okay, since you live in Tennessee, I'll fill you in. The prosecutors showed that OJ's DNA matched stuff they found at the crime scene, then OJ's lawyers had the gall to suggest that someone tampered with the DNA(which is next to impossible). And the jury was stupid enough to believe them.
As for the last sentence in your comment, that's a non sequitur. Just because some jurors are biased toward a black man doesn't prove that the system isn't biased toward whites.
------------------
"The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."
--Albert Eistein
------------------
Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto.
Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think?
Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
Its not quite the system thats biased as much as the people who make up the system: police, judges, juries, etcetra.
Those people who happen to be racist (or simply uneducated) predjudice the system.
------------------
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
I'll hug your elephant if you'll kiss my ass.
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
Abortion is slightly different, with many questions.
If the pregnacy is endangering the mothers life, can she abort, or die because we limit her choice.
Women that get knocked up, abort, get knocked up, abort, etc... These women need training/education.
Two samples is all, since I am getting long winded here, which is a pain till I get to Best Buy and buy a new keyboard.
------------------
Yep
And, Omega, your views on Democrat vs. Republican seems to be bordering on racism, IMHO. Unless you're only joking, of course.
------------------
Hunt: "You cheated!"
Rhade: "It's only cheating if you get caught."
-Andromeda, "Double Helix"
------------------
Yep
------------------
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
I'll hug your elephant if you'll kiss my ass.
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
------------------
Hunt: "You cheated!"
Rhade: "It's only cheating if you get caught."
-Andromeda, "Double Helix"
"Its not quite the system thats biased as much as the people who make up the system: police, judges, juries, etcetra."
So you're assuming that a majority of the thousands upon thousands of people that make the justice system work are racist. And your evidence would be?
Fab:
"Omega, your views on Democrat vs. Republican seems to be bordering on racism, IMHO. Unless you're only joking, of course."
How do you figure?
JK2:
"Honestly, if we could just EDUCATE people on contraceptives: the pill, condoms, "day-after" pill, etcetra, the # of abortions would drop significantly."
That's what we've been doing. It hasn't worked. Under any circumstances, why not teach kids NOT TO HAVE SEX? That would probably reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, wouldn't you say?
Back to the death penalty, it hit me: if I tried to outlaw capital punishment on the basis of my religion, would I not be forcing my religious beliefs on others?
------------------
Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto.
Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think?
Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
------------------
Yep
Yes, if you fight to outlaw execution based on your religious beliefs, yes.
But you yourself postulated that execution is a part of Islam ... so someone is obviously trying to force that religious belief on us!!!! ::Gasp!::
And how exactly do you plan to teach kids not to have sex?
What I said was that it is the people who make up the system ... I never said, 'everyone in the system is racist', as you claim. It only takes a few bad eggs to ruin a bunch ...
------------------
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
I'll hug your elephant if you'll kiss my ass.
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited November 05, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited November 05, 2000).]
quote:
Democrats have always been masters of changing the subject.
Seems to me you're labeling people with the title "democrat" and judging them thusly. Why not just make all democrats wear a red, white, and blue eagle on all their clothes so republicans can ridicule them appropriately?
Republican: "Haha! Lousy democrat!" *throws stone*
------------------
Hunt: "You cheated!"
Rhade: "It's only cheating if you get caught."
-Andromeda, "Double Helix"
ALL political debates try to force some kind of belief or another on other people. The difference is in saying "capital punishment should be abolished because people aren't perfect enough to decide who should die" and "capital punishment should be abolished because God will tak revenge."
Here's my personal example. Paganism says "harm none, do what ye will" and that energy you expend comes back three-fold. Karma and reincarnation says the murderer's soul would choose to meet the victim again in subsequent lives to resolve the matter. Do I tell you all of this? Of course not. But here's what I do say:
Our system would rather let a hundred guilty go free than execute one innocent, right? Well, innocents HAVE been executed. Whose fault is it? It's usually a combination of bad timing, lack of money (aka expensive lawyers), and human errors (including, but not only, prejudice). So I conclude here and say, "capital punishment should be abolished because people in general cannot be trusted to kill fairly."
Both approaches come to the same conclusion, but nobody would listen to the first argument.
------------------
"The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."
--Albert Eistein
[This message has been edited by Tora Ziyal (edited November 05, 2000).]
------------------
"Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much."
------------------
Yep
------------------
Equality, Cooperation & Benevolence.
Vote Communist Party of America 2000.
"Yes, if you fight to outlaw execution based on your religious beliefs, yes.
But you yourself postulated that execution is a part of Islam ... so someone is obviously trying to force that religious belief on us!!!! ::Gasp!::"
Are you this irrational in reality, or just online? If you can't figure out the inherant hole in THAT argument, how are you able to operate a computer?
"What I said was that it is the people who make up the system ... I never said, 'everyone in the system is racist', as you claim."
When did I claim that?
"It only takes a few bad eggs to ruin a bunch ..."
So now you're suggesting that the very FEW racists in the justice system are ruining the entire thing? I'd like to hear your explaination for that.
Fab:
"Seems to me you're labeling people with the title "democrat" and judging them thusly."
No, I simply analyze their actions, and determine that they fit the profile of a typical Democrat voter. You've got the cause and effect reversed.
Ziyal:
"You're trying to outlaw abortion on the basis of your religion"
No, I'm not. We all agree that the death of an innocent is wrong, unless it serves some immediate greater good, such as saving other lives. I have shown that the unborn child is alive. It is by nature innocent. Unless it's threatening the life of the mother, killing it is wrong. I never brought religion into it.
"you're advocating abstinence, are you not forcing your beliefs on others?"
I'm advocating abstinence because it always works. How many pregnant virgins have their been throughout history?
Since I'm NOT advocating litigating my own religion, your question is moot. Nice try, though.
"ALL political debates try to force some kind of belief or another on other people."
Um, no. It's by nature impossible to force a belief on someone. You may be able to force me to go through to motions, but what I think and believe is beyond anyone's control.
"Our system would rather let a hundred guilty go free than execute one innocent, right?"
Yes, which is why I only advocate capital punishment when there is absolutely no chance that the person could be innocent.
Shik:
"Omega...bubby.....if I recall correctly, the major protion of abortions aren't kids"
I never said they were.
------------------
Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto.
Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think?
Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
'Bubby' ... it's called sarcasm, I suggest you look it up, or get a sense of humor.
Perhaps I haven't been very clear in my last two posts. EVERYONE is predjudiced -- be it by race, education, etcetra. Personally, I don't much care for people who wear New York Yankee paraphenalia (probably because I'm an O's fan).
Thankfully, not very many people are predjudiced by skin color these days, but there are still hold-outs in the CJ system. Today, it seems, more people are offended when two people of the same sex decide they love each other.
But it still happens. "Justice" is not color-blind at all, she's also not sexuality blind or clothing blind. To pretend otherwise is sheer ignorance.
Do you understand?
And ... I said "if we could educate PEOPLE to use contraceptives" ... where did you come up with the idea that I said "kids"?
------------------
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"You still don't understand, do you MacLeod? I am the End of Time!" - Kronos
"You're history!" - MacLeod
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited November 05, 2000).]
Or you're prejudiced about everyone.
"Personally, I don't much care for people who wear New York Yankee paraphenalia (probably because I'm an O's fan)."
That's not prejudice unless you draw some conclusion about the person. Now if you think someone's STUPID because they like the Yankees, that's prejudice, because you judge before seeing the evidence. To judge before knowing, as the word originated.
"I said "if we could educate PEOPLE to use contraceptives" ... where did you come up with the idea that I said "kids"?"
General assumption. It's easier to educate someone while they're in school. Now TV commercials are all well and good, but a good class in school will work a lot better. Of course, the best bet is a good talk from a parent.
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Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto.
Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think?
Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
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So, how's that Survivor-contest coming along, Newt?
-Well not very well at the MOMENT, everyone seems to have died.
-Gee, that's bad. Those Aliens bugging you yet?
-Not really, they mostly come at night mostly...
A team of researchers goes to a remote village in some back-water country, in order to educate the inhabitants about the proper useage of condoms. To demonstrate to the males how to use condoms, they use brook sticks, mop handles, etcetra.
So they come back a few years later, and lo-and-behold, the birth rate is still what it was. They're curious ...
Until they come to the realization that before sex, the males are putting the condoms on ... broom sticks and mop handles ... (and not on the certain part of the male anatomy that it belongs)
True Story
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Gore/Lieberman 2000
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"You still don't understand, do you MacLeod? I am the End of Time!" - Kronos
"You're history!" - MacLeod
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
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I see a red door and I want id painted black