quote:
"The Authority, God, the Creator, the Lord, Yahweh, El, Adonai, the King, the Father, the Almighty - those were names he gave himself. He was never the creator. He was an angel like ourselves -- the first angel, true, the most powerful, but he was formed of Dust as we are, and Dust is only a name for what happens when matter begans to understand itself. Matter loves matter. It seeks to know more about itself, and Dust is formed. The first angels condensed out of Dust, and the Authority was the first of all. He told those who came after him that he had created them, but it was a lie. One of those who came later was wiser then he was, and she found out the truth, so he banished her. We serve her still. And the Authority reigns in the Kingdom, and Metatron is his Regent." - The Angel Balthamos
quote:
"Well where is God, if he's alive? And why doesn't he speak anymore? At the beginning of the world, God walked in the Garden and spoke with Adam and Eve. Then he began to withdraw, and he forbade Moses to look at his face. Later, in the time of Daniel, was was aged -- he was the Ancient of Days. Where is he now? Is he still alive, at some inconceivable age, decrepit and demented, unable to think or act or speak and unable to die, a rotten hulk? And if that is his condition, wouldn't it be the most merciful thing, the truest proof of our love for God, to seek him out and give him the gift of death?" - Mrs. Coulter
--His Dark Materials Trilogy by Philip Pullman
"To Reign in Hell" -- Stephen Brust
"Towing Jehovah"
"Blameless in Abbadon,"
and "The Eternal Footman" -- James Morrow (the middle one, with God on trial for Crimes Against Humanity is the best, and could be read as a stand-alone)
"Bible Stories for Adults" -- also by James Morrow
"JOB: a Comedy of Justice" -- Robert Heinlein
Another Good quote from a Heinlein book ("Time Enough for Love," I think)
"The sillest notion H. Sapiens has ever come up with is that the Lord God, Maker and Shaper of All the Universes, desires the saccharine adoration of his creations, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if he does not receive this flattery. The second most preposterous notion is that copulation is inherently sinful."
[ November 16, 2001: Message edited by: First of Two ]
I tried to make Simon read it, but alas, was spurned.
quote:
Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:2-4
quote:
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
And unlike Job, who wimps out, First of Two answers:
"What kind of a cop-out is that? What, I'm expected to demur because you're OLDER? What kind of reasoning is that? I ASKED you why you let bad things happen to decent, innocent people, and you ask me where I was when you made the world? You didn't give me much of a voice in THAT, did you? Where was your vaunted Free Will then, you cosmic bozo!"
Whereupon First is zapped by lightning for daring to make a valid point.
[ November 17, 2001: Message edited by: First of Two ]
[ November 17, 2001: Message edited by: Mojo Jojo ]
"When Bad Christians Happen to Good People" by Dave Burchett -- $11.95 in paperback. Looks like a good read.
The thing that most annoys me about stuff like this is that certain non-believers are so unbearable smug in their "look at the pathetic people believing in a god! Ha ha! We are better". It's just as bad as the unbearable smugness of the "I don't question God, and you're going to hell" brigade.
quote:
And of course, one could make the argument that the only reason First of Two is talking back is because he knows no-one is actually going to argue with him, and, if they did, he would shit his pants.
Cute.
Wrong, but cute.
I have, in the past, and will no doubt continue to, stand up to people who are much more powerful than myself, from bullies in elementary school to the 6'4, 250+# guy who threatened one of my female friends with a baseball bat. (I took quite a pounding, but I stopped him.)
I say it's because I have a well-developed sense of justice... but it may just be not knowing when to keep my mouth shut. In any case, it's an ingrained personality trait, and I don't suspect it would be any different if my bully were a Deity... except for that bit about the lightning bolt, which, if it happened, would only prove me right.
Perhaps I believe in the Phyrric victory... that's my perogative.
There's a lesson to be learned from the passengers on that airliner that went down in my state on 9/11... Fight anyway.
[ November 17, 2001: Message edited by: First of Two ]
*Wonders if large personal disclaimer should be included here*
[ November 17, 2001: Message edited by: Mojo Jojo ]
There's a difference?
You know, this is all in your perspective. You see life as being all hunky-dory, and the bad things that happen are the exception. But that's not how God sees it. We were all damned to begin with (thank you, Eve), and the bad things that happen to us are the natural course of things. Consider yourself lucky that good happens AT ALL, and that you have any chance at avoiding Hell.
It's the difference between focusing on the good and focusing on the bad; between happiness and depression. If you see life itself is a blessing, as I do, what have you to complain about? If you think you DESERVE life, for whatever reason you can come up with, then you have EVERYTHING to complain about. It's in the most basic, ancient difference in worldviews: pride vs. humility. Or, put another way, "Who will you serve?"
Before I go and punch myself in the face, I would like to congratulate Omega for making me think about something in a new way. Well done.
quote:
thank you, Eve
That's a reasonable deity for ya'. He punishes everyone for the act of one person. Thanks God. Don't let anyone accuse you of being fair, just, or nice.
"'You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I Yahweh your god am a jealous god, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.'"
-Yahweh, Exodus 20:5-6
This is the line I noticed when we were studying the Ten Commandments during my freshman year of high school. That was the exact point at which I started on the road to atheistic agnosticism. Even after fifteen impressionable years of dogmatic indoctrination, I had quite a bit of trouble fathoming the notion of punishing a person for the acts of their great-great-grandparents. Eventually, I relized that such nonsense was human bullshit, certainly not the words of any sort of infallible deity, and it all made sense.
We're not being punished for Eve's sin alone. "For all", count them, ALL "have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Again, life's a blessing in itself, and we don't DESERVE heaven, especially considering the number of times we screw up in our lives. But you have a shot at it anyway. Again, blessing, not deserved. Be happy.
Tim:
I Yahweh your god am a jealous god, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me
"Third and fourth generation OF THOSE WHO HATE ME." If the kids keep hating, the iniquity keeps building up. That's the way the world works in general: if your parents are affected by their past mistakes, then you're affected by them, and so are your kids, your grandkids, etc. However, if the kids are good, God shows "steadfast love". Makes perfect sense.
Again, it's all in how you look at life.
[ November 18, 2001: Message edited by: Omega ]
"...visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me..."
Note how the part in italics splits the final prepositional phrase away from the noun it modifies. Let's rearrange the sentence...
"...visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children of those who hate me to the third and the fourth generation..."
Make sense now?
And of course God's ego is huge. He's God. If you were God, you'd think you were the dogs bollocks too.
He did CREATE dog's bollocks, didnt He?
Oh, wait...
Life is a blessing.. .provided you're not born with crippling defects or into an abusive household, or with any number of problems that AREN'T your fault. You'll notice, Omega, that I'm not generally complaining for MYSELF, but for others.
Greater love hath no man, than he would stand up to God Himself for his friends. Or more, for people he doesn't even know.
Visiting evils upon the DESCENDANTS of those who anger you is... stupid, at best, vicious and outright evil, at worst. I'm pissed at you, so I hurt your children? If a human did that, we'd call him 'Monster.'
[ November 20, 2001: Message edited by: First of Two ]
quote:
Life is a blessing.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
Tell that to the parents of babies which where born blind and/or deaf, and/or with a mental handicap. Tell that to anyone who has been crippled for life - paralyzed from the neck down - in a severe accident. Tell that to a person who has lost family, or (a) good friend(s) to an as-of-yet uncurable disease (i.e. cancer). And I garuantee you, I will personally make sure you burn in your own damned hell if you try to pass this off as "God's will". How dare you even CLAIM to know the thoughts and desires of a supernatural entity?! Regardless of his/her/its existence, this is an indication of that self-righteous and arrogant attitude people at Flare have come to know you for.
You obviously haven't lived long enough to know what real misery means, how deeply it affects humans. No shit has hit your fan yet, but you have no idea how much I'm restraining myself from hoping it does, just to teach you some humility - because I've had more than enough of your narrow-minded, condenscending nature.
[ November 20, 2001: Message edited by: Mojo Jojo ]
(Omega, of course, will try to find some bullshit excuse - despite the fact he can't possibly have the slightest clue what Fairytale Lord's reasons or motivations are.)
1. God is mythical.
2. God is both Good and Evil.
3. The definitions which are generally applied to God (omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, omniscient) are lacking in the 'real' God.
If (1) Then worship is unnecessary.
If (2) Then worship is futile.
If (3) Then worship is useless.
Although I'm not stating my own opinion here, for those who have lost family, the "blessing" would be the time you had with them, rather than the time you lost them. Is it better to have known someone for a short time, or not at all?
Same with children. Is it better to have a child born blind (or whatever), or to have never had a child at all?
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If you see life itself is a blessing, as I do, what have you to complain about? If you think you DESERVE life, for whatever reason you can come up with, then you have EVERYTHING to complain about.
quote:
Is it better to have a child born blind (or whatever), or to have never had a child at all?
Funny, to me it seems more like, "You get punished, and EVERYONE gets hurt in the process. So don't think it's just your life that'll get messed up if you screw up."
"obey me or burn forever" IS forced obedience.
No, it's not. It's a frelling big favor. We WOULD burn forever, not as punishment, but as the natural way of things. God can not be in the presence of sin (Job being a screwy book that quite possibly shouldn't be there to begin with), and without God there is no life. Obeying God is the only way to avoid hell, and He set that up at massive cost to Himself.
Life is a blessing.. .provided you're not born with crippling defects or into an abusive household, or with any number of problems that AREN'T your fault.
No, it's STILL a blessing then. All is in how you look at life, and apparently you're the more pessimistic type.
I will personally make sure you burn in your own damned hell if you try to pass this off as "God's will".
Excuse me? Who said people dying was God's will? Not me. It's just the way the world is.
"...and that's why God causes bus accidents..."
How dare you even CLAIM to know the thoughts and desires of a supernatural entity?!
Because he told a bunch of people, and they wrote them down.
You obviously haven't lived long enough to know what real misery means
Wanna bet? There have been times when I would have welcomed death. Then I grew up and realized exactly the truth I've been telling you: life is a blessing, no matter what. Simply view it as such, and you'll be happy all your days.
No shit has hit your fan yet, but you have no idea how much I'm restraining myself from hoping it does, just to teach you some humility
*L*
Humility? You think I need to be taught humility? The basis of humility is the exact concept I've been trying to get across to you!
There are two ways to look at life:
A) Humble guy: "I don't deserve life, and yet I have it anyway. Cool beans, no matter what happens to me."
B) Proud guy: "I DESERVE life, with all the trimmings. If something bad happens to me, well, it must be GOD, treating me unfairly!"
Still think I need humility? I'll take anything life has to offer with a smile, becuase I can't be touched. Humility leads to happiness in all things. 
he certainly must also deserve the blame when life is a curse.
The only time life is a curse is if you WANT it to be a curse, if you want to see it as one. Job may have been wrong about who was doing what, but he did get one thing right: "Blessed be the name of the Lord." I am ALIVE. I have the chance to spend eternity with God, instead of away from Him. How can I possibly complain for my own situation?
he can't only be responsible when they go right, and not when they go wrong.
Sure He can. They go wrong when we take control away from Him.
for those who have lost family, the "blessing" would be the time you had with them, rather than the time you lost them. Is it better to have known someone for a short time, or not at all?
Yes! Go, Liam! Regardless of Tim's former .sig, Tennyson got it right: it IS better to have loved and lost.
You view life as a blessing, but would you feel the same way if you were in pain, or sad, depressed, and lonely?
What makes you think I'm not?
Well, minus the "depressed" part, 'cause that's part of what we're trying to avoid, here...
So don't speak to me about pain.
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"You get punished, and EVERYONE gets hurt in the process. So don't think it's just your life that'll get messed up if you screw up."
Like I said again, that's STUPID. Stupid and childish of God to allow other, innocent people to suffer for someone else's mistakes. Stupid to punish the son for the iniquities of the father. That's what the people did to the big kid in 'Freak the Mighty.' An omnipotent being could have found a better way.
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but as the natural way of things. God can not be in the presence of sin (Job being a screwy book that quite possibly shouldn't be there to begin with), and without God there is no life. Obeying God is the only way to avoid hell, and He set that up at massive cost to Himself.
Horse puckey. God made the Serpent/Lucifer/Satan. And He made the rules, even the one about not being in the presence of Sin (and if God can't be in the presence of Sin, doesn't that necessarily make Sin more powerful than God?). He didn't HAVE to. Nobody put the Ultimate Nullifier to His head.
And tough about Job. It's in, so you have to accept it at face value as equal with everything else in the book... or don't expect ME to accept ANY of it.
quote:
apparently you're the more pessimistic type.
What's so pessimistic about not wanting people to suffer unnecessarily through no fault of their own, and saying that for them to do so is wrong? You say 'we all sinned,' but you KNOW that's crap, because babies and unborn children can't sin. Sin, according to you, is the negative use of free will.. and they don't HAVE it!
quote:
A) Humble guy: "I don't deserve life, and yet I have it anyway. Cool beans, no matter what happens to me."B) Proud guy: "I DESERVE life, with all the trimmings. If something bad happens to me, well, it must be GOD, treating me unfairly!"
You forgot:
C) Child: "I exist. That is not my fault, I didn't make me. What I do to myself with my own actions, that's my fault. What others do to me, or what happens to me that I didn't cause myself, is NOT. And I shouldn't have to stand for it."
If you'd done nothing to me (and you haven't), and I came over to your house and whacked you over the head with a baseball bat, you'd have just cause to complain about my actions.
If a child who has done nothing to God is 'whacked' with 'baseball bat' of the pain and suffering and ultimately slow and painful death from cystic fibrosis, he has just cause to complain about it, as well.
And I'm so sick about hearing about God's 'sacrifice.' It's no sacrifice to send a bit of yourself to Earth to die, or even into Hell, if you know you're getting out in three days. Big fat hairy DEAL. Its a MUCH bigger risk (and therefore a much bigger sacrifice) for those of us who CHALLENGE, knowing that if we lose, we get to go there, in our entirety, FOREVER. There was never any danger of that, so God risked nothing.
See, the thing about omniscience and omnipotence is that it means that God never plays games that He can lose. He either wins, or He throws the match. Same with the Human toys. Omnipotence means that if an idea can be conceived by any mind (and certainly by a human mind), God can accomplish it. That means that God is capable of saving EVERY soul without resorting to acts that would violate free will. Saying that God is constrained by 'rules' is to deny His power.
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Job being a screwy book that quite possibly shouldn't be there to begin with
Now, if only Jeff would do his archive-hunting thing and find the time Omega made his big hullabaloo about how you can't believe the rest of the Bible unless you believe in Creation and how either the Bible is all the word of God or isn't and how selective acceptance is bad and how Catholicism is stupid etc. etc.
He did. It's called "Don't eat the frelling fruit". Whoops! Too late.
if God can't be in the presence of Sin, doesn't that necessarily make Sin more powerful than God?
No, it just means that God has an unchangable nature. Just like I can't breathe vacuum.
He made the rules, even the one about not being in the presence of Sin
If God could be in the presence of sin, He wouldn't be Himself. There are things God won't do for any reason.
It's in, so you have to accept it at face value as equal with everything else in the book
Book? What book? The Bible isn't a book. It's a compilation. You have to analyze EACH BOOK on its own. Job contradicts the rest, and is totally unrelated to the rest on top of it all, so why did the Catholics put it there to begin with?
You say 'we all sinned,' but you KNOW that's crap, because babies and unborn children can't sin.
They're stuck in an unclean world. Yes, it's sad when a child dies, but a) they were alive for a time, which is a blessing in itself; b) their presence was a blessing to others; c) they have committed no sin, as you say, and thus likely get a get-into-heaven-FREE card. Think big picture, here.
What's so pessimistic about not wanting people to suffer unnecessarily through no fault of their own, and saying that for them to do so is wrong?
Oh, that's not the negative part. The negative part is where you blame the God who gave them life to begin with, and gave them a chance at something better that they otherwise wouldn't have had.
If you'd done nothing to me (and you haven't), and I came over to your house and whacked you over the head with a baseball bat, you'd have just cause to complain about my actions.
Yes, because you actively did that to me.
If a child who has done nothing to God is 'whacked' with 'baseball bat' of the pain and suffering and ultimately slow and painful death from cystic fibrosis, he has just cause to complain about it, as well.
Complain about what? God did nothing to them. Neither did anyone else. The circumstances are what they are, and you can accept that and try to make them better, or you can try to find a scapegoat and waste your life whining about it.
And I'm so sick about hearing about God's 'sacrifice.' It's no sacrifice to send a bit of yourself to Earth to die, or even into Hell, if you know you're getting out in three days.
Methinks God knows definitions of 'pain' you're unfamiliar with. You don't consider dying the most horrible death ever conceived a sacrifice?
Its a MUCH bigger risk (and therefore a much bigger sacrifice) for those of us who CHALLENGE, knowing that if we lose, we get to go there, in our entirety, FOREVER.
Challenge what? God? That's not a risk, that's stupid, spiteful, and suicidal.
OK, one more time
A) You're screwed, by your nature and by the nature of the world you were born into.
B) God undergoes the greatest possible trauma to save you.
And you complain about what, again?
Omnipotence means that if an idea can be conceived by any mind (and certainly by a human mind), God can accomplish it.
No, it means that He can do anything that CAN BE DONE. God can't make the sum of two and two be five.
Even the omnipotent have limits, both of their nature and of their goals. Forcing us into worship would defeat the entire purpose of creating us, and being in the presence of sin would be by nature impossible.
Think of it like this: you sin, and BY DEFINITION you are no longer in God's presence. He doesn't cast you out, you cast YOURSELF out. The very definition of being in God's presence is being without sin. Work better for you?
quote:
You don't consider dying the most horrible death ever conceived a sacrifice?
I would... if crucifixion was the most horrible death ever conceived. It isn't.
Besides that, the most horrible LIFE ever conceived is FAR worse than the most horrible death ever conceived. There are kids who suffer just as much as Christ on the Cross, but they do it EVERY DAY for YEARS.
To bring up an old example... my gf was horribly abused, sexually, physically, and psychologically, by her mother and two neighbors as a child. She suffered WAY more than a pitiful few days... she's 37 and her agonies are STILL going on. She ALSO suffered from a birth defect which could have cost her her arms, and now she suffers from the effects of the surgeries to 'fix' (or make less bad, actually) that defect. These things will NEVER go away.
A few days, to thirty-odd YEARS.
Sorry, but your boy just doesn't compare.
quote:
A) You're screwed, by your nature and by the nature of the world you were born into.
I made neither my own nature nor the world's. God did. He set up ALL the entry and working conditions, including the 'fact' that one moment of stupidity and gullibility committed by two fruit-munching simpletons could doom an entire species -- yeah, THAT's fair and reasonable --, to eternal torment. I refuse to accept responsibility for things I did not create (which makes me the opposite of God, who refuses to accept responsibility for things he DID create.
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B) God undergoes the greatest possible trauma to save you.
Nope, not the greatest possible by a long shot.
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And you complain about what, again?
That it's all so unnecessary. He could have forgiven Adam and Eve, and put an end to it. He could have avoided teh situation entirely. But He didn't. He set us up.
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No, it means that He can do anything that CAN BE DONE. God can't make the sum of two and two be five.
The Bible is full of God doing things that can't be done. Your definition of 'can't' is meaningless. (Plus, there's always noneuclidean geometry.)
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Even the omnipotent have limits, both of their nature and of their goals. Forcing us into worship would defeat the entire purpose of creating us, and being in the presence of sin would be by nature impossible.
Defend this using scriptural quotes. It's a theory, and a flawed one. Lucifer can be in God's presence, and L's a sinner of the highest order, any way you look at it. If God couldn't be in the presence of Sin, He couldn't act in this universe at all, and the Deists would be right.
quote:
Think of it like this: you sin, and BY DEFINITION you are no longer in God's presence. He doesn't cast you out, you cast YOURSELF out. The very definition of being in God's presence is being without sin. Work better for you?
Before I was born, and for a great deal of time afterwards. I didn't sin, as I was incapable of the act, OR the knowledge of what sin, obedience, good, evil, and God was. Therefore, BY DEFINITION (yours) I should have been constantly in God's presence, and He in mine. Yet this clearly wasn't so. So no, it doesn't work at all.
I would... if crucifixion was the most horrible death ever conceived. It isn't.
Yes, I worded that slightly wrong. It's the worst form of death that doesn't involve purposefully keeping the victim alive through modern medical means.
There are kids who suffer just as much as Christ on the Cross, but they do it EVERY DAY for YEARS.
They don't have it done to them by others.
A few days, to thirty-odd YEARS.
Sorry, but your boy just doesn't compare.
Jesus: lived perfectly, died horribly anyway
GF: lived imperfectly, still alive, and will be for the frseeable future, though in (considerably less) pain
Yeah, maybe your GF has the worse situation, by your view of the world, but tell me something: what is your girl's one chance of being free of her pain? And who can do it for her?
If that's not reason enough for you, I don't know what can be.
He set up ALL the entry and working conditions, including the 'fact' that one moment of stupidity and gullibility committed by two fruit-munching simpletons could doom an entire species -- yeah, THAT's fair and reasonable --, to eternal torment.
OK, fine, blame Him for that, if you want to. But He's done everything possible to make up for it, so what more do you want?
I refuse to accept responsibility for things I did not create
You have sinned. You HAVE to accept responsibility for that, because it's YOUR action.
He could have forgiven Adam and Eve, and put an end to it.
It's a little more compliacted. God STILL can't be in the presence of sin. Jesus, by virtue of being the perfect sacrafice, is the perfect intermediary. But the perfect sacrtafice had to be made, and God made it.
The Bible is full of God doing things that can't be done.
Can't be done BY US. Defying the laws of physics is nothing, because God created them. But math is totally abstract, and even the omnipotent can't change it.
Plus, there's always noneuclidean geometry.
Which doesn't change the sum of two and two.
Lucifer can be in God's presence, and L's a sinner of the highest order, any way you look at it.
Not if you cast out Job, which doesn't make any sense as part of inspired scripture.
If God couldn't be in the presence of Sin, He couldn't act in this universe at all, and the Deists would be right.
That's where Jesus comes in. Jesus was "the Word", "Logos", the active force that carries out the commands of the higher power.
BY DEFINITION (yours) I should have been constantly in God's presence, and He in mine. Yet this clearly wasn't so.
Says who?
At least it gets you out in the sun.
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This was one of the most revolting punishments ever devised by the human imagination and even in those days was hardly ever used. The penal code of Charles V did not make provision for it. In the manual Punishments of Life and Limb..., we find the following: 'In barbaric regions, particularly in Algiers, Tunis, Tripoli, and Salee, where inveterate pirates dwell, if a man is thought guilty of treason, he is impaled. This is done by inserting a sharply pointed stake into his posterior, which then is forced through his body, emerging through the head, sometimes through the throat. This stake is then inverted and planted in the ground, so that the wretched victims live on in agony for some days before expiring. . . .It is said that nowadays not so much trouble is taken with impalement as once the case, but such criminals simply have a short spit thrust into their anus and are left to crawl thus upon the earth until they die.' We may well imagine that such a barbaric punishment was calculated to arouse sympathy for the tormented victim among the spectators of an execution. This was no doubt the reason it was not generally employed"
Kunze, Michael.
Highroad to the Stake: A Tale of Witchcraft. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press. 1987.
So, Yahweh can't be in the presence of sin, eh? Wouldn't that mean that, every time Isho' was around a sinner, all the god-ness had to go out of him? Meaning that he would only be human? And incapable of forgiving the person's sins? So, the Pharisees were right: he was blaspheming.
"...what is [Rob's] girl's one chance of being free of her pain? And who can do it for her?"
Death. And Dr. Kevorkian.
[ November 21, 2001: Message edited by: TSN ]
That's taking the trinity aspect a bit too far. Jesus was part of the Godhead, but not GOD God. There are three seperate consiousnesses involved. God the Father is the source of life. Christ, who was the perfect sacrafice, is the bridge that allows us to access that source, regardless of sin.
By that logic Adolf should have lived to a ripe old age.
- Paul, Ebonic Translation
Yes, we CAN be forgiven for almost anything, if we accept the forgiveness, but that doesn't necessarily remove worldly consequences. I kill someone, then find God, sure I go to heaven, bt I still get executed here.
quote:
I kill someone, then find God, sure I go to heaven
Ahhh... how convenient. There are a few right-wing Christian fundies I have always wanted to get rid of...
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Even the omnipotent have limits, both of their nature and of their goals.
Then the omnipotent aren't omnipotent. Thus, no point in worshipping.
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Forcing us into worship would defeat the entire purpose of creating us
An omnipotent being wouldn't have to force us; watch the scene in TNG's True-Q where Amanda Rogers makes Riker fall in love with her.
Also, when you're omnipotent 'n all, you don't really give a fuck about a bunch of mere mortals drooling over your presence (unless you were bored, but since you're omnipotent, you can alter your own mood at will) or not. But then, you'd already know that before you had even created a single molecule.
Omnipotence, BTW, is a concept. Similar to mathematical infinity. Something that can be approached, but never reached. Therefore, referring to any being as 'god' is futile. I.E.: no reason to worship.
quote:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Think about it Ommie.
To die is gain, as Paul said. But I'm here to serve God, not my own ends, and I can only do that so long as I'm alive.
Then the omnipotent aren't omnipotent. Thus, no point in worshipping.
How do you define whether someone is worthy of worship?
watch the scene in TNG's True-Q where Amanda Rogers makes Riker fall in love with her.
Yes; she forced him, and decided it was pointless unless he chose it.
Also, when you're omnipotent 'n all, you don't really give a fuck about a bunch of mere mortals drooling over your presence
God doesn't want the worship. He want's you, ALIVE, and the only way he can get that is if you love Him, and accept His gift. That leads to worship. It's like the bit about how we're not saved by works, but that if we ARE saved, there WILL be works. Cause and effect.
Well, I could point out that almost everyone calls me "Liam" (Or "Sexy monkey beast-boy"), and almost everyone in the Western World calls the Son of God "Jesus", but, eh.
If Isho's his realy name, why were you calling him Jebus a few months back anyway?
And I was calling him "Jebus" to be mocking. Just like Omega's name isn't "Smeghead", but I might still call him it.
Nor does your belief that 'God and Sin cannot coexist' make any sense.
"Sin" if defined as 'disobedience to God' existed in the universe before the Fall of Man (as proved by the examples of the Big Red L, and the Serpent), and thusly man could not have been responsible for it.
If God could not act in the Sin-filled Universe without Christ as an intermediary (as you stated above,) how do you explain the ENTIRE Post-first-few-chapters-of-Genesis Old Testament, which is chock-full of Acts of God? For that matter, how could Christ have been born, without a force acting upon that little part of the sinful universe?
And what is this 'lived imperfectly' bullshit? CHILDREN, for fuck's sake! INFANTS! They haven't had a CHANCE to live yet! How can their lives be judged 'imperfect' before they are born? That's crap. Fucking predestination crap.
*Deep breath... calm down...*
Okay.
Yes, but not in any creation that was part of the universe. Satan already existed.
If God could not act in the Sin-filled Universe without Christ as an intermediary (as you stated above,) how do you explain the ENTIRE Post-first-few-chapters-of-Genesis Old Testament, which is chock-full of Acts of God? For that matter, how could Christ have been born, without a force acting upon that little part of the sinful universe?
God can't be in the presence of sin. The universe ITSELF did not sin, because it's not consious. So God CAN act in the universe, but not in the direct spiritual presence of a human. Further, don't confuse physical presence with spiritual presence.
And what is this 'lived imperfectly' bullshit? CHILDREN, for fuck's sake! INFANTS! They haven't had a CHANCE to live yet! How can their lives be judged 'imperfect' before they are born?
They're conceived into a hostile universe. They don't HAVE to have done anything. Remeber, Christ lived perfectly a LOT longer, and still died.
quote:
They're conceived into a hostile universe. They don't HAVE to have done anything.
Exactly. And that's stupid and unjust.
Y'know, it occurs to me that any omnipotent being that can create ONE universe can create another.
At the time this universe initially got screwed up, there were only two people in it.
Obviously, God is not a programmer...
Create Universe 1.0
Save backup file.
Run Universe 1.0
Universe 1.0 Crashes.
Delete File.
Edit Universe 1.0 (delete Serpent, Tree of Knowledge)
Create Universe 2.0
Run Universe 2.0
Continue process until all bugs fixed.
Would have been a far more logical (and merciful) thing to do than continue to run a buggy universe that dooms the majority of the beings who enter into it.
On another tack... why are people born, anyway? More meat for the grinder?
Experience points?
"Man, these 2 humans REALLY screwed this universe up... I'd better snip their procreative systems, so that they won't doom any offspring to the same fate."
See, that's the problem. Your God doesn't do OBVIOUS things that would preclude suffering, things that any mildly intelligent human being would think of.
Have your pets spayed or neutered.
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How do you define whether someone is worthy of worship?
You neither define nor worship. Why bother? Just because this entity - fictional or not - happens to be a bit higher up the ladder? I consider that a sign of low self-esteem and a *major* lack of dignity. Also, I like to do my own thinking. I don't base my decisions on some fairytale story written over 2,000 years ago.
I'll say it again: man created gods. Not vice-versa.
[ November 23, 2001: Message edited by: Mojo Jojo ]
[ November 23, 2001: Message edited by: Grokca ]
[ November 24, 2001: Message edited by: First of Two ]
"So what does the recent assimilation of Unix by MacOs X represent?"
Erm... That Jebus no longer believes in himself?
-Tom Waits, "Heartattack and Vine"