One year ago today I got out of work at six in the morning, tired and wired from another day in the shit-storm that is/was my job. I came home, put on some tunes, switched on the TV to some dull ass news network for background scenery, found my place in "The Lucifer Principle" and prepared to immerse myself in theoritical memetic engineering until I fell asleep.
So, I happened to be occasionally glancing at CNN over pages explaining the dangers of certain virual memes when something happening in New York caught my attention at about eight in the morning, central time...
I believe every human being on planet earth that can access the news media knows the rest of what happened that morning.
It's been a year, folks. I'm not one to sound the call for patriotism, or ask for fake sympathy from a world that general despises this country, for reasons real or imagined. I'm not going to sit here and ask anybody to light a fucking candle or even hold a moment of silence for people they didn't know.
All I know is that a whole lot of people died a year ago today. All I know is that one year ago today I was scared for family and friends in New York City, even though none of them works or lives that close to the WTC.
All I know is that today actually holds a special place in this cynical heart of mine.
Not because of American pride, or any memetically programmed sense of National Unity.
Today is special because a large number of people (nearly equal to the total population of many of the small towns I grew up in) died in a way that nobody of any nation, religion, gender, race, creed or smart-ass attitude should ever have to fear dying like.
And when I start thinking that, I start thinking that maybe Sept. 11th shouldn't just be a day of mourning and rememberance for America. Perhaps, just perhaps, it should be a day of mourning and rememberance for the entire world. To remember the horrors of war, of genocides, of atrocities commited across the slow crawl of history by Evil Men. From the Holocaust to the rape you heard happened two streets over last week, from the suicide bombers to the children who take guns to schools and shoot other kids. Let it encompass the entire lexicon of savage deeds. A day for remembering Terror, Loss, grief, and agony.
I say: Why not? We have days of celebration all the time. Perhaps it is time that we have a day of damnation, damning not only the men who commit heinous acts, but damning the very nature of man that allows these things to occur.
And why not on Sept 11th? It's still fresh...and though there have been things that dwarf it in terms of magnitude, it holds a memetic power that is undenable.
I dunno. Maybe it's a stupid idea. Maybe...
Anyway. Happy September 11th, folks.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Yeah, it's memetic, all right. Two weeks ago at the library, everything was due 11. Sep. I had to start telling people their stuff was due on simply "the eleventh", because saying "September eleventh" didn't sound real. The words "September eleventh" have been used over and over and over so often in the media during the past year to refer specifically to 11. Sep. 2001, that it doesn't sound like a normal date anymore. Fucking media.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Hmmm.....a day to remember and mourn. We could even call it......Rememberance Day
Posted by Tahna Los (Member # 33) on :
I was thinking that 9/11 would be designated a national holiday of sorts. Maybe that wasn't such a great idea.
It's hard not to think about all this going on right now.
Anyways, though there is going to be a lot of mourning in the U.S., there is going to be a measure of celebration. No, not the terrorists (though I am curious on how "the other side" perceives this anniversary), but in places like Gander, Newfoundland, in Canada. If you recall last year, after the attacks, many flights were diverted to Canadian cities after American airspace was cleared. Gander, Newfoundland, got the largest, even though the population was around 10,000 people. Take a look.
It's actually going to be a celebration of unity, and humanity. Not such a bad idea, eh?
One other thing: I hope that the cermonies marking the event do not exclude or ridicule a certain group of people who have been wrongly maligned since last year. And I'm not talking about the terrorists.
RANT: And we didn't get even a thank you from GWB.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
They tell us there are only two sides to be on If you are on our side you're right if not you're wrong But are we innocent, paragons of good? Is our guilt erased by the pain that we've endured?
Hey look it's time to pledge allegiance Oh god I love my dirty Uncle Sam Our country's marching in the beat now And we must learn to step in time
Where is the questioning where is the protest song? Since when is skepticism un-American? Dissent's not treason but they talk like it's the same Those who disagree are afraid to show their face
Let's break out our old machines now It sure is good to see them run again Oh gentlemen start your engines And we know where we get the oil from
Are you feeling alright now Paint myself all red white blue Are you singing let's fight now Innocent people die, uh oh There are reason to unite Is this why we unite? If you hate this time Remember we are the time!
Show you love your country go out and spend some cash Red white blue hot pants doing it for Uncle Sam Flex our muscles show them we're stronger than the rest Raise your hands up baby are you sure that we're the best?
We'll come out with our fists raised The good old boys are back on top again And if we let them lead us blindly The past has become the future once again. --"Combat Rock," Sleater-Kinney
Posted by E. Cartman (Member # 256) on :
I can only hope this day won't be apprehended to further fertilize the soil hate thrives on. Want to fight terrorism? Then uproot the cause, damn it!
Not that it matters, of course. I'm not unconditionally with you, so I must be against you. And what possible good is my inconsequential contribution anyway? After all, Me == Socialist == Bad == RagHead == CamelFucker == terrorist sympathizer.
Fuck it. Wish I had a stronger command of English. Can't find the right words to express myself.
Besides which, sharing my remaining thoughts would condemn this thread to spend the rest of its existence in the FB. Suffice it to say they concern... sensitive issues surrounding this day of remembrance that I take great affront to.
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
I don't think its a good idea to make the day a holiday. Kids'll look forward to 9/11 because they get a day off of school! And it will be spent throwing the football around, or commanding fleets or armies in combat.
YAY!!!
Posted by Capped In Mic (Member # 709) on :
I was going to start a thread last night, but fell asleep early.
The major networks have all decided to be very careful not to re-air film of the events unfolding ad nauseum, for fear of hurting the viewers emotions. I heard that and said 'good'
Then i watched Nova last night, since my grandparents only watch PBS. It was about the construction of the Towers and why they collapsed the way they did. They showed EVERYTHING.. in slo-mo. Purely from a construction standpoint, showing the impacts close up, in slow motion, over and over. It was from a scientific standpoint, analyzing trajectories and locations and the so on, but it was one of the most sobering things ive watched, especially since i wasnt expecting to put myself thruogh viewing it again.
This morning, i was flipping stations while driving, and about 8:40 the Boston top 40 station (which i switched to because the 80s station doesnt come in in northern RI) stopped their bland chatter, and said the anniversary was approaching and said 'and now, here is the President' I EXPECTED to hear one of the many speeches he'll be making today. Instead, they played a string of sound bites from last year when the President was calling for us to band together and fight. If ever the media was used as a tool for an asshole war effort was here. On the aniversary of death, they played PROPAGANDA for WAR. Motherfuckers. Its the most shameful thing I've ever experienced. I switched to a better station, WBRU (local and college oriented), who had a moment of silence and a reminder that things were going to be OK. Thats what i listened to at 8:46. Im still sickened what came out of the large media outlet.
By the way, my grandparents are sickened too. They said last time they had a leader calling for war so voraciously was the 1930s. Yes, they compared Bush to that guy. (and they have firsthand experience.. they were there).
Watching the towers fall, my grandmother said that people would get more used to buildings toppling when they did so every day, like it happened when she was young and the cities of her homeland were bombed by U.S. forces.
Lovely way to start the day.
[ September 11, 2002, 07:19: Message edited by: Capped In Mic ]
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Yeah, and and how do you decorate you're 9/11 tree?
Posted by Capped In Mic (Member # 709) on :
You didn't really mean to type 'you are' there, did you? its a little more grammer than the possessive term I would have used. To each his own, I'm just saying the apostrophes and extra letters are just more work in the long run.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
I'm choosing to spend today not looking at the politics of what's going on. And that's hard considering Dick Cheney is supposed to be on Rush Limbaugh's radio program today, and George Bush will probably be outlining our need to go to war with Iraq again in his speech from the Statue of Liberty. There'll be time to think about the politic aspects tomorrow; today is for the people.
I started today at a memorial service on-campus. I just felt the need to be there in spite of the fact that I am not religious and only know one person who was directly affected by the terrorist attacks. I guess I'm just hoping that whatever little bit of love I can show today might help ease was hate did a year ago.
Since the memorial service and moment of silence, I've been at work, but I've been spending more time thinking back a year ago than sifting through r�sum�s and cleaning up the database. I remember that I woke up just as the first plane hit, and I was showering as the second plane hit. It wasn't until I got to my first class that I learned what was happening. The rest of that was spent in front of the television in the cafeteria or in my dorm room. And I still remember how eery it was to not hear any airplanes flying overheard that night.
For the past couple weeks, I've been watching the September 11th documentaries on The Learning/Discovery/History Channels. Construction histories of the Pentagon and World Trade Center and their destruction. It never fails to stir up the emotions I experienced last year as I think about the thousands who died.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Harry, with pieces of rubble of course... little airplanes.... maybe some GI Joe and Barbie body parts... parts of police cars and fire engines... Things of this nature.
Posted by Capped In Mic (Member # 709) on :
charming
Posted by Tora Buttercup (Member # 53) on :
I think 9/11 should definitely be a holiday. How would we prevent it from happening again if we don't remember it? What does it matter if kids look forward to a day off school if we make 'em learn what it's about? What if someone has their birthday on 9/11? Are they not supposed to celebrate because it's "disrespectable"?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I don't think it would be a day off school. After all, no-one gets a day off for V-E day, or stuff like that.
Posted by Magnus de Pym (Member # 239) on :
This September Eleventh I will be doing the same thing as I did last September Eleventh. Wondering what glee I will have while unwrapping my birthday presents tomorrow.
I think I might get socks.
Also, how can today be about "remembering" when you haven't let it go at all?
But, my birthday is tomorrow, and that it more pressing.
Posted by Magnus de Pym (Member # 239) on :
Also, it is good that World War II did not end in Denmark.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Genius.
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
quote:On the aniversary of death, they played PROPAGANDA for WAR.
Same as they did for Pearl. But much less so, since on December 7th, 1942 we were actively building war machines and devices for the sole purpose of destroying the Japanese. I'm sure the launch of the USS New Jersey was well-reported.
quote:They said last time they had a leader calling for war so voraciously was the 1930s. Yes, they compared Bush to that guy
FDR, or Churchill?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
How I have spent my September 11: Sleeping in till noon. Doing some laundry. Heating up (but not eating the whole thing, because our microwave could not heat a meal evenly even if it was a two-dimensional plane.) some somewhat old roast. Reflecting upon the fact that all of this, including this, and everything else, has affected me in ways far too deep for me to really talk about, which is even worth, because talking about things is the only thing I do well. And by well, let us be charitable and say "doesn't suck quite so terribly."
I'm not particularly interested in watching television, because sometimes I feel like I've already seen and digested and considered so much that hearing someone else talk about the things I've been thinking about is like being trapped inside some monsterous echo chamber. I suppose I simple am jealous of my grief and don't want to share it, especially not with people with rational reasons to grieve. I mean, honestly.
I'd go to a movie, only my car has two flat tires, one of which cannot be repaired, and I just spent 200 dollars on my dorm room deposit, and while I could buy a new tire, or even two, it offends my sensabilities. Though so does being non-mobile. And my throat hurts. Yay. (Or, if you really must know, it doesn't hurt so much as it has that curious chunky feeling that precedes a cold.)
I've also looked at a lot of these pictures. Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
One year from that tragic day...I'll probably watch some ABC coverage of Bush's speech, but mainly I'll keep off the TV. Who wants to re-live it?
I agree its probably not a good idea to show those planes crashing into buildings again on the TV anytime soon. However, I do hope they are shown on specials or in documentaries for future generations to see years from now. I'll want my kids to be able to see what we all saw on that day, not some freeze-frame photo of a tower blowing up.
No one brought this up but there was some talk about it recently...a 9/11 movie. There will most definitely be one. It could be a docu-drama, much like Thirteen Days, not a straight up Rambo/Bruce Willis style action film. It'll deal with the attacks form all points of view...a firefighter, maybe, a senator, and maybe the president. Granted, this is speculation (as there is no movie in the works), but since there was a movie about Pearl Harbor and the Kennedy assassination, there will be one on this, whether it be 10 or 100 years from now.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
This is a blog entry I just posted. I don't think anyone here except for Frank & maybe Se�or Benson reads it, so here it is. Flame as you will.
GODFUCKING DAMMIT I HATE HUMANS!!!
I just was yelled at and made to leave by Emily and Gretchen...because I refused to believe the bullshit that surrounds today. Because supposedly I'm "mean" and "callous" and "uncaring." Well, fuck you, too.
Yes, a year ago 3000 people died in a shock attack on this nation. Yes, I was galvanized as well. No, I lost no one...but yes, like most people I almost lost someone. My sister was under the North Tower on the train on her way to work when the first strike came; she was evaced and looked up to see the second one. Linda was part of the Brooklyn Bridge exodus. Lenora was driven hom to the Bronx from her school by a cop; both she and the officer were coated head-to-toe in remains and dust. I have a personal stake as well: I grew up living and breathing New York. I'd eaten at Windows On The World.
But I don't buy into the "remembrance" concept. Memorials are small, personal, tasteful. They are not media extravaganzas. They are not jingoistic bonfires of nationalism fueled by laser-guided strikes of "righteous rage." DEATH HAPPENS. EVENTS HAPPEN. Fluidity simply...IS. Recently, I read a comment on Flare that said, "The universe is simply a fluid series of uncertainties." How right that person was. Things happen, and we move on. So it's been a year. SO WHAT. Is this going to be a yearly thing? I, for one, am simply fed up with the "memoriams," the anniversaries, the pointless nothingness. Where are the services on January 26th? Or January 28th? We BARELY have them on December 7th anymore. And why only the BAD times? Why not V-E Day or V-J Day? Why not the day the British left Yorktown? Or the end of the Civil War?
No, instead we cling on to the past like a bunch of scared children. "Oh, it's Columbine Day." "Oh, it's Oklahoma City Day." "Oh, it's the death of JFK, Jr." "Oh, it's Flight 800 Day." "Oh, it's September 11th." They want to name today as "Patriot's Day," you know. I love it. Patriotism by default, a new crop of involuntary martyrs. How many of those people really cared when it came to it? How many of the rest of us really cared? I sure didn't, and I still don't. Why? Because I can see the larger picture. Look beyond nations, looke beyond stupid infighting, and look at the larger picture.
Almsot 350 firefighters lost their lives last year; Company 2 was entirely wiped out. Tragic, yes...but have you ever met a firefighter? They're like Klingons--they wouldn't have wanted to go any other way. Tragic, perhaps. Heroic, indeed. But sad? No. It's JOYOUS. I don't know a cop, firefighter, paramedic, or other member of a civilian support agency that wouldn't have done the same dam thing. These people do not do these things because they merely enjoy it. They ARE the jobs. It's not like your sales analysis job or my data entry job. It's not because they're good at them or mildly enjoy them. They are HARDCORE and I'm DAMN proud of them for dying on the job, doing what they loved and knew they needed to do. Would that so many of the rest of us be able to claim the same .
But past the immediate loss...what does it matter? It's become the international equivalent of a "Save The Children" ad. The flag waves, the smoky shots are shown, and the crying starts...and it's all designed to make us feel BAD. Well, fuck THAT. Death IS. Events HAPPEN. Let it all get put to rest, let the people directly affected with move on with their lives, and stop dredging it all up. Frank Zappa talked once about "death by nostalgia," the point where "one cannot take a step without becoming nostalgic about where we once were." This nation was soon approaching that point, and in the past year, we've barreled along at a vastly increased rate. Just let it all settle. If you want to remember, that's grand, and power TO you. But STOP INFLICTING IT ON THE REST OF US. I DID my bit: 3000 new names for Starfleet vessels. That's MY way.
I won't even get INTO the whole fucking nationalism aspect except to say that (A) this nation SERIOUSLY needs to reexamine its policies in the world and got off its holier-than-thou fucking horse,; and (B) you can't destroy a small cell-based organization using conventional and standard military maneuvers. We showed that to the British 226 years ago, the Viet Cong reminded us of it 30 years ago, and the Bajorans are gonna make a note of it to the Cardassians in about 350 years. Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:They're like Klingons--they wouldn't have wanted to go any other way.
I'm going to have to post this on another UBB I frequent Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
Effing double posts...
I will add...
if "I just was yelled at and made to leave by Emily and Gretchen" is so, then you have just learned something about your OWN social and political situation, and your OWN 'high horse.'
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
Glurge for nihilists. Nice.
Actually, we DO have these sorts of services, Shik.
Veteran's Day / Armistice Daty Memorial Day Remembrance Day (Canada) I'm pretty sure most of the other countries represented on this board have similar days. I KNOW the Japanese have one for the nuking of Hiroshima.
It just happens that Sept 11th, for the time being, is a NEW day.
It is unlike any other remembrance day, because on THIS day, it was not just a military target, full of soldiers, which was destroyed, but planes and building filled with civilians. Women, old folks, and children. All at once.
And another thing.. the Afghanis aren't the only ones who learned from Vietnam. "Standard" maneuvers now aren't what "standard" used to be. All hail the tunnel dogs.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Yeah, but they're off-hand ones. memorial Day is merely a 3-day weekend, as is Veterans' Day. I mean things like all of this shit. Where's my slow-mo picture montage of Scobee & Onizuka? Where's my "Amazing Grace" backdrop to Isaac Kidd? Where's my moving reenactment of the boxcar in France?
Death by nostalgia.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Yeah, make it a holiday, then in fifty to a hundred years they can ask the kids why we have that holiday, and the fucking kids won't know.... This past 4th they, the news, asked a bunch of people why we celibrated that day... Few got the right answer, which, everyone knows, was of our rebellion.....
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Today already is Patriots Day, or Patriot's Day, or some variation thereof. But just today, September 11, 2002.
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
Still seemed like it was almost yesterday, I know it's a dumb cliche, but it just doesn't feel like it's already been a year yet.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"They said last time they had a leader calling for war so voraciously was the 1930s. Yes, they compared Bush to that guy
"FDR, or Churchill?"
Wild guess here, but I think he may have been talking about the other side. I don't think Roosevelt and Churchill were calling for war in the '30s (barring Sep. '39, but that was more a declaration than a "calling").
Posted by Tora Buttercup (Member # 53) on :
The nice thing about being in a university is that you automatically have a diverse community. Today I went to this campus-wide memorial gathering where they had professors, the president, religious communities, the school of music and school of theater all say/perform something. There was a really moving skit by the theater people of different intersecting monologues about what people were doing on 9/11 when it happened. I think they were all based on real experiences, but one of them came from a woman who was staying at the hotel in tower 2 on USC business on 9/11. It was a first-person account about how she woke up from the rumble when the first plane hit to how she hid in a building on Broadway when the buildings went down and the air was black, and how strangers grabbed each other and held hands as they ran. It was just very moving.
Posted by Capped In Mic (Member # 709) on :
My grandparents lived in Germany. They compare Bush to Hitler. There, I said it.
Also, after Pearl Harbor I think the directive to war was a little more clear. I hardly think that attacking Saddam Hussein a year later is justly caused by a civilian terrorist bombing ordered by Osama bin Laden.
The US clearly sticks its nose in places in the middle east where it doesnt belong. we have been meddling for 50 years and im afraid its going to catch up to us, worse next time.
but this isnt the flameboard, and i really have no desire to discuss it. those of you that wish to continue flame-boardish comments should do so there.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
On the bright side, it is now Sept 12, a bright an sunny day, like last year at this time. Days like this will continue long after the majority of us are nothing but dust being tossed about in the air currents....
Posted by Capped In Mic (Member # 709) on :
cool!
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Well, it's bright, sunny, and hot here. The only thing keeping it from being a nice day is that it smells like exhaust fumes and its hazy as hell. I can see the haze quite well by just looking across the courtyard. Downtown is just a collection of dark gray shapes. Bleh.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by First of Two:
It just happens that Sept 11th, for the time being, is a NEW day.
It is unlike any other remembrance day, because on THIS day, it was not just a military target, full of soldiers, which was destroyed, but planes and building filled with civilians. Women, old folks, and children. All at once.
Because all the people killed in the Blitz were soldiers, weren't they? And those 250,000 deaths at Horishima? All military, were't they?
That's the main thing that gets me. Yes, this was a tradegy, but America isn't the only country to suffer from attacks on civilians. Compared to most countries, it's got off quite lightly.
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
Liam, have you forgotten that you're a Brit?
We didn't make this a holiday for YOU. There's no need for you to do anything with us or to commemorate it for us, unless you want to do something to acknowledge that your country lost people, too. If you don't want to hear about it, don't pay attention to it.
We don't pay attention to your holidays (Di's death excepted - and I can't begin to tell you how nauseating all that was). This event is ours. We don't expect you to celebrate our July Fourth, why should this be any different?
It is overwhelmingly arrogant for Europeans to try and tell the US what holidays it should have. Let us fight about that amongst ourselves. We don't expect it to mean anything to you.
And by the way, we'd already covered the rest of your post. You may not have a Blitz day, that's your own deal, though. The Japanese, as I already stated, DO have a commemmoration of Hiroshima, though, so bringing that into the equation is a point for ME, not you.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Attacks against America European Invasion - Civilian (1500's onwards) Pearl Harbor - Mostly military* Marine Barrack in Lebannon - Military U.S.S. Cole - Military Oklahoma City - Mostly Civilian* World Trade Center - Civilian* U.S Embassies - Military* I am not counting State and Federal Employees as Civilians
Liam, I think this is what 1st was getting at. We aren't talking about the Blitz, the Battle of Britain, the atomic bombimgs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki(sp?), the fire bombings of the Ruhr, or the sarin gas attack in the Tokyo subway, although they all are regretable. The reason for this is the WTC was in our time, in our home. Our home, which, in our general arrogance, we believed to be untaintable. It is the damage to our pride and arrogance that we are having a rough time dealing with. The thousands of lives lost hurt us, but not in they way that the attack showed our vulnerability. McVeigh took our innocence, bin Laden took our safety net.
Posted by Free ThoughtCrime America (Member # 480) on :
quote: McVeigh took our innocence
Although I get what you're saying, I have to say: America was never innocent.
We just weren't used to having bombs going off in our homeland. I'm still not. Hardly think about it, really. I'm more worried of going to an ATM at night than I am about bombs, or crackpot fundies.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"This event is ours."
Can I trade my portion in for something a little more interesting and less nationalist?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ritten:
It is the damage to our pride and arrogance that we are having a rough time dealing with.
And dealing with it by wanting to carpet bomb any country where they talk funny doesn't seem the best way of going about it.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Alas, I am not in charge.... Yes, the reaction to lash out is the first thing to pop in to the minds of millions.
Question for you Liam, how do, er, did, you feel about the IRA attacks on London? What was your reaction? Of course, then again, you have had this going on for quite sometime, not to this extreme though.
On the plus side, carpet bombing can be a very pretty site, with the proper temperature inversion layers and white phousphorus being used. The fire and flares buring brightly behind and in the mist of it all. Yes, not midst, but the mist of it...
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Oh yes, talking about how aestically pretty weapons that are causing a large number of deaths is certainly going to win you support.
As for the IRA attacks, well, my first thought was that they should try and make peace with the IRA. And, good god, they almost have.
Failing that, arresting and imprisoning those responsible.
Notice that my opinion wasn't that we should launch an invasion of Dublin.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I forgot to respond to this as well:
quote: We don't pay attention to your holidays (Di's death excepted - and I can't begin to tell you how nauseating all that was).
Di's death is a holiday? Since when? (And I found it nauseating as well).
quote: It is overwhelmingly arrogant for Europeans to try and tell the US what holidays it should have. Let us fight about that amongst ourselves. We don't expect it to mean anything to you.
Now, this has confused me. I don't believe that anywhere in this thread a "European" has told you what holidays you should have. They might have offered an opinion, but no-more.
Having a Blitz day would be tricky, since it wasn't on a single day. And as someone said, we do have a VE and VJ day (although the VJ day has been toned down, which is good, I think). Of course, those events are 60 years in the past, and about remembering sacrifice and whatnot. Was two days ago about simply remembering those who died, or was it also about gathing patriotic support for a war? The former is fine. The later is, at the very least, distastful.
Posted by Free ThoughtCrime America (Member # 480) on :
Well, technically, you don't need to invade Dublin. They already did that a long time ago.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"...wanting to carpet bomb any country where they talk funny..."
Careful, "governor", or you "blokes" may be next...
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
It is interesting to note that this country has been attacked many times over by terrorists before the WTC bombing in February 1993. A bomb killed a dozen people in Wall Street around 1913. Some Puerto Rican nationalists set off hordes of bombs in New York in the 50's. And I would say the assassination attempt on Harry Truman was a terrorist incident.
Plus, although these are not terrorist attacks, the Japanese did invade the Aleutian islands during World War II (although Alaska was more of a US territory and not our soil). Also, the Japanese flew across the Pacific in hot-air balloons and dropped some bombs in Washington state, and killed a family.
Now, I'm not saying anyone said terrorism in America started with the WTC bombing, I'm saying it has been around for longer than some might think.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
The ballons were unmanned....
It has, hell, the mobsters having their wars, now the gangs...
I wasn't trying to garner support, just making a comment that the weapons of war, while doing their jobs, do make some interesting sights.
Yes, your troops are already in Northern Ireland, so the invasion is complete.
Does anybody remeber a movie that came out quite sometime ago where terrorists made a strike in someplace like Beverly Hills, or some ritzy shopping area. Walked along and tossed grenades in to the shops and cafes. This is all I remember of it.
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
Yeah, I wouldn't call the IRA a good example. They only started bombing you AFTER you invaded and occupied their country.
Oh, man, realizing that has given me all sorts of mean-spirited new ideas...
Isn't it about time for some UN sanctions against this imperialist occupying force controlling the Ulsterian people?
Posted by E. Cartman (Member # 256) on :
You mean to say Palestinian extremists DIDN'T start blowing themselves to kingdom come until WELL after the formation of Israel?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by First of Two: Yeah, I wouldn't call the IRA a good example. They only started bombing you AFTER you invaded and occupied their country.
Riiiigggghhht. There is the matter that Northern Ireland is part of the UK, and the majority of the population wishes to remain that way, and that the IRA is more based in the Republic, which I don't believe we've occupied (unless I've missed a memo), so yeah, I wouldn't call the IRA a good example either.
quote: Also, the Japanese flew across the Pacific in hot-air balloons and dropped some bombs in Washington state, and killed a family.
My god! A whole family was killed! In war time! No wonder you got the nukes out.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: Careful, "governor", or you "blokes" may be next...
Sorry "dude". I don't want to come across as if I'm "totally Jonesin'".
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Riiiigggghhht. There is the matter that Northern Ireland is part of the UK, and the majority of the population wishes to remain that way, and that the IRA is more based in the Republic, which I don't believe we've occupied (unless I've missed a memo), so yeah, I wouldn't call the IRA a good example either. [/QB]
Actually we did occupy what is now the Republic. But then we um... unoccupied it. We didn't do that in NI because the people there wanted to remain part of the UK. This is called democracy. You may have heard of it. The IRA is a small and unnecessarily violent minority. Yes, the 11th September attacks were terrible but many other nations have gone through far worse and yet make less of a fuss about it. Hell, if we had national holidays for every IRA attack we'd never get anything done!
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
Why is it I'm always hearing "It's the worst terrorist attack in American history?", not "the worst terrorist attack in history?". Sure, it's been the worst for us, but, as far as I know, no other country has ever suffered a terrorist attack that has killed 2,800 people. Do the repeated suicide bombings in Israel count as one big terrorist event? Does Saddam Hussein's gassing of the Kurds in '88 count? Just a question I've been pondering for a year and three days.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Herewegoagain. Terrorist attack is a little bit up there on the hardtodefine scale.
Posted by E. Cartman (Member # 256) on :
And even higher up on the subjectiveterm scale.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
The atomic bombs were the worst terrorist attacks in history. Why? They were used to instill terror to the Japanese people and government, the aim was to end WWII with minimal loss of life to the Allies. It worked.
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
quote:There is the matter that Northern Ireland is part of the UK
Riiiiiiight.
#1. England invaded and occupied Ireland (including Northern Ireland). It may have happened 900 years ago, but it still happened.
#2. Although the majority of occupied territory was eventually released, Ulster is still occupied. They remain under foreign rule since the "intifada" of the late 60's-early 70's.
#3. England built settlements on Irish land, moving British citizens in in successive waves of "relocations," adding a veneer of legitimacy to their occupation. Otherwise they would clearly not have enough votes in the occupied territory to win any legitimate referendum.
#4. The British maintain "Diplock" courts, for trial without jury, a practice widely condemned by human-rights organizations for compromising due process (sounds familiar)
We demand the immediate withdrawal of UK forces and settlements from the occpied territories in Northern Ireland, with UN sanctions to be imposed in the event of noncompliance.
Of course, I'm just being a bastard, and you could easily apply the "invasion and occupation" stigma to every country in the Western Hemisphere and many in the Eastern.
But it's funny how, when you expand ideals that seem applicable to ONE situation, they don't always seem applicable to similar ones.
quote: The IRA is a small and unnecessarily violent minority
sounds like the PLO.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
"unnecessarily violent minority"
By whose standards, the oppressed or oppressor?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"I don't want to come across as if I'm 'totally Jonesin''."
Unfortunately, I don't actually know what that means...
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Me neither. But they said it on Angel once...
quote: By whose standards, the oppressed or oppressor?
Those crazy standards where Ireland is "oppressed"?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
To jones for something is to desire it.
Posted by Free ThoughtCrime America (Member # 480) on :
How does Jones feel about this?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
They may approve. Posted by Free ThoughtCrime America (Member # 480) on :
Well I'll be a bare-assed baboon.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
![[Smile]](smile.gif)