This is topic $$ 2x14 "Such Sweet Sorrow, Part II" in forum Discovery at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.


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Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
 
Hmm.

Okay, there was a lot that I liked in this episode, but the producers claiming that all of Disco's continuity hiccups would be fixed by the end of this season clearly didn't happen.

The battle was awesome. The fact that Enterprise's phasers looked and sounded more like TOS phasers than Disco phasers was appreciated.

We totally need more Dr. Pollard. Her response to Saru telling her to do her best was priceless.

As anticipated, Tyler brought in the Klingon cavalry. While I haven't been a fan of the outfits L'Rell has been wearing so far this season, her battle armor here looked great. And again, it's nice to see the Klingons act more like Klingons this season, instead of how they acted in Season 1 (more like Kazon).

I still think the Klingon "cleave" ship is a very un-Klingon design, but heck if it ain't impressive when it does its thing.

The Pippa and Nhan vs. Leland/Control fight was nifty, although I think the gravity control aspect of it might have been a tad over the top. And did Leland kill Nhan? They're both fighting Leland in the corridor, and then it's just Pippa in the lab.

Cornwell's gone. Not that I think it's gonna matter much given events later in the episode.

To my great relief, Control wound up just being Control, and had no relationship with the Borg. Still, I know I sound like a broken record, but why did Control need the data? It's clearly capable of mass destruction as is.

Discovery successfully makes it through the wormhole into the future. It'll be very interesting to see where things go from here with the ship and crew.

And the "reason" we never hear about Discovery, her technology, or her crew in the future is because Starfleet classifies it all. How the frak do you classify crew? Did Starfleet show up at the homes of their families and threaten them all with treason if they ever mention them again?

And who even is this guy that they're all talking to at the end? They keep hiding his face for some reason.

And the problem of Section 31 seemingly being public knowledge doesn't get solved in the slightest. In fact, the episode ends implying the organization becomes more transparent, not less.

There is one other thing that I'm not happy with. So I watched the episode, and afterwards I thought to myself, "Hey, they got through this whole season without succumbing to the urge to give Number One a stupid punny name!" Then I get on Memory Alpha this morning to check a few things for making this post and find out that they did give her a stupid punny name and I just missed it. "Una"? Seriously? Seriously? Shame on you, Disco.

Okay, I think that's it for the episode itself. I think I'll make another post later with my thoughts on Season 2 as a whole.

EDIT: Forgot a biggie! Pippa's onboard Discovery when it goes to the future. How is this gonna affect her show? Is it gonna be a prequel taking place between Disco Seasons 1 and 2? Or is Section 31 still gonna be around in some form in the... uh... 32nd Century? (Did I do my math right?)
 
Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
 
Okay, Season 2 thoughts:

When Season 1 ended, my general thoughts were that I liked the show, but didn't love it. While I didn't take issue with as much of it as others did, there were aspects of it that I really didn't care for (primarily Starfleet sanctioning a plan to BLOW UP QO'NOS).

And with Season 2 now ended... I find I feel the same way. I still like the show, but I still don't love it. It hasn't yet grown the beard, so to speak.

I think, at this point, we've got two main problems:

1. The producers like to take liberties with established canon, promising the changes will make sense in the end... and then they don't.

Let's take Section 31, for example. We've seen on both DS9 and Enterprise that Section 31 is top secret. Nobody knows it exists. And yet, on Disco, everybody knows who they are. They even have identifying black badges. In interviews, the producers response to this discrepancy has been "Don't worry, this'll make sense by the end of the season!"

Except it doesn't. No reason has been given as to why Section 31 is public knowledge in the 23rd Century when it was top secret in the 22nd. And it certainly doesn't go back to being a shadowy conspiracy by the end of the season. If anything, dialogue indicates it becomes more open.

Same thing with the Klingon makeup. Now, I'm not against the Klingon redesign on principle. If this makeup was meant to represent unaltered Klingons, sure it's a change, but I would roll with it. But Klingons are supposed to look human during this time period, again as established by TOS, DS9, and Enterprise. No explanation is given as to why Klingons now look more alien than ever, and no explanation is offered as to why they look human again a decade later.

2. Conflicts with canon aside, the show just gets really dumb at times. Emphasis on "at times".

Culber's consciousness was transported to the mycelial network because Stamets cried on him? What?!

Time crystals give you visions of a possible future if you touch them once and then lock in that future if you touch them again? What?! Time crystals are real things! They do not work this way!

Now what did I like?

1. The casting. Season 2 overall knocked it out of the park. Anson Mount as Pike was genius, and I'm really sorry to see him go. Rebecca Romijn as Number One was also an excellent choice, as was Alan van Sprang as Leland. Ethan Peck was okay as Spock, although I suspect my opinion is based more on the way Spock was written early in the season than it is on Peck's acting ability.

2. The visuals. The show continues to look gorgeous.

3. The characters. I continue to really enjoy most of the Discovery crew, especially Saru and Tilly. I like that Season 2 threw some love to the rest of the bridge crew by fleshing out Detmer, Owosekun, Airiam, etc. Burnham herself continues to be a bit of a weak point, especially since her character arc during the first half of the season (i.e., finding Spock) was uninteresting and went on way too long. I was also not thrilled with Culber's behavior post-resurrection, but at least that's gotten worked out.

4. A more Trek-like plot. It was good we left the Klingon War behind and got to more exploration and investigation.

So how do I feel going into Season 3? The show moving into the distant future can only help, as it won't be stepping on the toes of what's come before. I've been chomping at the bit for decades now to find out what happens next in Star Trek (aka post-Voyager, post-Nemesis), and the only thing that's remotely come close to scratching that itch is Star Trek Online (which, as much as I like it, is non-canon). However, I don't feel as though the change in premise is going to solve all of Disco's problems. The writers need to focus more on writing tight stories with fewer silly concepts like the magic fungus drive and time crystals.
 
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
 
Is that admiral interviewing everyone supposed to be someone we know?
 
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
Probably not. And since Kurtzmann has just confirmed that they're going to be in the 33rd century next season (and beyond?), that's it for L'Rell and Tyler (and maybe Culber, if his being on Disco at the end turns out to be a hallucination by Stamets), and Po (if she hasn't sneaked back onboard, her fate was left a bit uncertain I think).

Actually, on that - Po said she had figured out how to recrystalise dilithium; is that ever am accepted ability in Trek, apart from when they do it in TVH? Because if not, then that suggests Po does go to the future with them, so that abilty is lost to the galaxy forever - or a thousand years, anyway. Maybe that's a bit thing in the 33rd, a scarcity of dilithium; maybe it's makes the Federation something Calypso guy had never heard of, or makes them the (evil?) V'draysh?
 
Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lee:
Actually, on that - Po said she had figured out how to recrystalise dilithium; is that ever am accepted ability in Trek, apart from when they do it in TVH?

Yeah, in the episode "Relics" Geordi tells Scotty that they can re-crystallize dilithium in the 24th Century.
 
Posted by vwuser (Member # 2182) on :
 
Po is in DSC 12 - as she watches the Discovery head to the future, she says, "Go, go".

I do not believe that is an illusion of Cubler - he is aboard the Discovery.

I am not optimistic about season 3. Writing a story about people being stranded takes talent. Voyager had people who were closer to the Trek soul then the current crop and they failerd more than they succeeded. Somtimes it is better to leave it to the audience's imagination on what happens next to characters.

I am struck by how strong this incarnation of the Enterprise is. Whenever, in the past, we have seen a Federation starship lost over half of its saucer, particularely the forward half, that ship is disabled afterwards. The Melbourne, the Enterprise from STIII, one of the Mirandas from DS9.
 
Posted by Zipacna (Member # 1881) on :
 
This episode has really raised a big question for me - what century is "Calypso" supposed to be set in? In that short we're told that Discovery had been ordered to main position for nearly 1,000 years (presumably without a crew), during which time she evolved sentience. The assumption has always been that was 1,000-years from the 23rd Century. However, Discovery has now jumped to the early 32nd Century - and last I checked Discovery has both a crew, isn't sentient, and hasn't been alone for a millennia. Presumably then "Calypso" is set a further millennia ahead of the events we'll see in Season 3 to allow for Discovery to have nearly 1,000-years of alone time?

I find myself in agreement with Kathryn Janeway's assessment of time travel causing headaches...
 
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
 
So, to summarize, in the future the Starfleet AI known as Control acquired the knowledge of an all-seeing space sphere lifeform and, because reasons, sought to wipe the galaxy of life. As part of a temporal Schrödinger's Cat paradox where Burnham's mother both was and wasn't killed, Burnham's mother went to the future in a time-travel suit and from there tried to stop the annihilation by altering the timeline.

In the 2250s Discoverse, they discover seven signals across the galaxy that hadn't yet occurred, and via a series of what, to this timeline, appear to be a set of predestination paradoxes, they follow the assorted signals as they appear (again?), picking up the tools and skills they need to get the Discovery to be the bearer of the sphere data after thr elder Burnham causes its death, all so that Control, in humanoid nanobot-infested cyborg form, can be killed on the ship by Mirror Georgieu and so Burnham can lead Discovery to jump 950 years forward for no apparent reason after the aforementioned death of Control.

There's also a battle which features Discovery, the Discoprise, 200 small vessels Discoprise deployed, and a fleet of Control-controlled Section 31 ships that had cut off communication so the Discoprise and Discovery would be alone. That Discovery can insta-jump tens of thousands of light-years to communicate directly was not proposed. Instead, someone jumps ship and warps away seconds before the battle, arriving with help from people who believe him shameful and dead, and also coming are people flying borrowed/stolen space fighters who were literally row-boating kelp farmers like a week ago.

In a laughable effort to have some semblance of continuity with the Original Universe, after Discovery runs away from victory to the future the writers simply have Spock and company lie about the fate of Discovery and everyone agrees to classify all data on the ship and its adventures, after which another red burst of the original seven appears (again?) months later to signal Discovery's safe arrival.

Does that cover it all adequately?
 
Posted by Zipacna (Member # 1881) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Guardian 2000:
That Discovery can insta-jump tens of thousands of light-years to communicate directly was not proposed.

In the preceding episode they directly said that they were using the spore drive to charge the time crystal as the EPS grid couldn't cope doing so, and that the spore drive would be out of commission for 12-hours after this...by which point the Section 31 ships would have caught up to them. You can argue that they could have just used the spore drive to jump to the Delta Quadrant or something before charging the time crystal thus making it physically impossible for Leland to catch up with them in time (which does also raise another question that if this technology existed in the 2250s, why didn't they recreate the drive on U.S.S. Voyager a century later and jump back to Earth in a matter of weeks) and it's a convenient bit of nonsense, but ultimately in story Captain Pike's orders made jumping an impossibility.
 
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
 
That's not an "impossibility", by definition.

If I'm in a time-crunch and need the car to go get it serviced for an hour but am also starving, I'd hit a drive-through en route to the service center.
 
Posted by Zipacna (Member # 1881) on :
 
There's one hell of a big difference between what a civilian in charge of their own vehicle may chose to do, though, and a vessel of what is basically a military organisation where the commanding officer has given orders to undertake a certain action. The orders may very well have been stupid orders (and the writing has left plot holes you could have parked the Discovery in where control would never have found it), but you're comparing apples & oranges there. Unless you want to defy orders & wind up in the brig for insubordination, yes Pike's orders do make it impossible to make a jump.
 
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
Yes, the seven bursts don't make sense to me at all. They all happen at once, are detected, but then they have to wait for them to happen again (but one at a time) to find out where they are?
 
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
I know by its very nature this board is around to nitpick Star Trek to the nth degree, maybe I’ve gotten older, maybe I don’t care as much, but I just wanna day Damn that was a good episode.

The show has just been hitting it out of the park in season 2 and this episode was no exception. Yes, there’s little things to nitpick, but hey. I think it’s been a wild ride this season. So much better than season 1, which was... OK.

I think the show is so visually spectacular. That long shot of Discovery going into the wormhole was fantastic.

I am going to miss Pike and the Enterprise. Mainly Pike. Anson Mount was fantastic. There’s a petition to create a spin-off series. I’d love it if they made it.
 
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
 
This show got me fucked up.
 
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
So the only thing that could save the Enterprise from an antimatter explosion in the primary hull was to close some sort of blast door - with a window in it?! - from the inside, so... why not just get one of those nifty repair drones to do it?
 
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lee:
So the only thing that could save the Enterprise from an antimatter explosion in the primary hull was to close some sort of blast door - with a window in it?! - from the inside, so... why not just get one of those nifty repair drones to do it?

Yes, that bugged me.
 
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zipacna:
There's one hell of a big difference between what a civilian in charge of their own vehicle may chose to do, though, and a vessel of what is basically a military organisation where the commanding officer has given orders to undertake a certain action. The orders may very well have been stupid orders (and the writing has left plot holes you could have parked the Discovery in where control would never have found it), but you're comparing apples & oranges there. Unless you want to defy orders & wind up in the brig for insubordination, yes Pike's orders do make it impossible to make a jump.

I'm not clear on why you're framing the problem as one of disobeying Pike. The issue is that it is a silly idea. Burnham certainly hasn't shied away from telling Pike what to go do with himself, but the problem is that the writing left Pike and the entire crew idiots who'd go into battle with questionable odds of survival rather than pop over to HQ for not just assistance, but also to let Command know that failure meant a murderous and newly-wicked-smart AI thing was coming.

Of course, they could've just jumped to a point beyond a twelve-hour intercept mark to do the thingy with the magic time suit, then had everything up to and including the spore drive ready for the Section 27 fleet ("a few short, sir!"), so that Control could witness the firepower of the fully armed and operational Discovery and its zippity-doo-drive, just as with Clawngon ships last season, rather than endangering the Enterprise at all.
 
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
Just watched again, in the credits there’s a Klingon character called K’Vort... I wonder if he is the name-sake of the K’Vort class??
 
Posted by Zipacna (Member # 1881) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Guardian 2000:
I'm not clear on why you're framing the problem as one of disobeying Pike. The issue is that it is a silly idea. Burnham certainly hasn't shied away from telling Pike what to go do with himself, but the problem is that the writing left Pike and the entire crew idiots who'd go into battle with questionable odds of survival rather than pop over to HQ for not just assistance, but also to let Command know that failure meant a murderous and newly-wicked-smart AI thing was coming.

Of course, they could've just jumped to a point beyond a twelve-hour intercept mark to do the thingy with the magic time suit, then had everything up to and including the spore drive ready for the Section 27 fleet ("a few short, sir!"), so that Control could witness the firepower of the fully armed and operational Discovery and its zippity-doo-drive, just as with Clawngon ships last season, rather than endangering the Enterprise at all. [/QB]

I'm framing it that way because a starship isn't a democracy, and a crew isn't at liberty to do whatever it wants. Ultimately Pike gave an order that made the spore drive inoperative, hence why they didn't do what you're suggesting they should have done. To then use the drive you'd either have to wait until it's repaired (which would have been after the battle), or use it before you do what you'd been ordered to do. I'm not denying it was a stupid idea that could have been better planned by the writers...but in universe presumably the crew were giving a commanding officer that they trust the benefit of the doubt & not questioning the decision at a critical moment.
 


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