Okay, let's get the brain-breakingly stupid out of the way first... Picard and Guinan already know each other in this time period! They met in 1893! How could you possibly get this wrong, show?!
Even ignoring THAT, the show was mostly spinning its wheels this episode. Rios is still in custody, Seven and Raffi are still looking for him, and Agnes is still trying to fix stuff with the help of Her Majesty.
We've found our Watcher, and it appears to be Laris. I say "appears" because I'm pretty sure Laris has pointy ears and can't bodysurf.
And we get another Q cameo... where he appears to have lost his powers.
Overall, a massive disappointment. And here I was beginning to hope this show had learned a lesson or two this season.
EDIT: Forgot that this episode did have one awesome moment. Seven and Raffi are riding the bus and run into the same freaking guy from Star Trek IV who is STILL blasting "I Hate You" on a boom box. However, he seems to very much remember his encounter with Spock, as he very nicely turns off the music when Seven asks him to (and subtly tugs at his neck as if remembering the nerve pinch). One point to you, episode.
[ March 24, 2022, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: Krenim ]
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Well, now hold on - if the universe didn't unfold as we thought it did, then did Picard travel back in time to 1893 in this reality? Because if he didn't, then ....
Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: Well, now hold on - if the universe didn't unfold as we thought it did, then did Picard travel back in time to 1893 in this reality? Because if he didn't, then ....
Hmm... could be. Doesn't help that effects of time travel shenanigans has always been wildly inconsistent in Trek. Still, it seems like it would have been something Picard would bring up when Guinan didn't recognize him. "You don't remember me? 1893? San Francisco? Data? Mark Twain?"
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Also:
quote: Seven and Raffi are riding the bus and run into the same freaking guy from Star Trek IV who is STILL blasting "I Hate You" on a boom box. However, he seems to very much remember his encounter with Spock, as he very nicely turns off the music when Seven asks him to (and subtly tugs at his neck as if remembering the nerve pinch). One point to you, episode.
In this reality, what Future Alternate Spock did to this guy was .... much much much much worse.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:if the universe didn't unfold as we thought it did, then did Picard travel back in time to 1893 in this reality?
But would Kirk and Spock have travelled back in time then? Ah, I agree with Janeway on this. Gives me a headache. ;-)
The bar's address is 10 Forward Avenue. So I suppose Guinan must've asked Picard to set up her bar in that specific spot on the Enterprise-D, no? And I guess if she can age at will, she can also de-age at will.
Jackson Roykirk Plaza was in the background of the scene with Q and Picard's ancestor.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
To borrow a TrekCulture term, the biggest up was the call back to Star Trek IV's bus scene. It's shit like that, that fans love. That's what I love about Lower Decks, it's always full of deep cuts for life long Trekkies and not afraid to dish them out worrying, "What if new fans don't get the reference?"
Which brings me to the Guinan scenes... they couldn't have referenced 'Time's Arrow' in fear it might confuse new fans? It's like the writers didn't think we'd notice, but we did. I get that maybe Guinan wouldn't immediately recognize Picard. Afterall, a lot of time has passed. And it seems dumb he didn't mention meeting in the 1800s. Guinan already knows she will meet Picard, reminding her in 2024 won't change history.
I'm not sure about these Watchers yet. They aren't Q, but maybe on the super high evolutionary level as the Q. Their connection to Guinan might serve as to how they acted towards each other in TNG... assuming the writers are that clever. Which unfortunately with the 'Time's Arrow' misstep makes me doubt it.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
They said "Supervisor"...like Supervisor 194, perhaps?
Krenim, he wasn't still blasting "I Hate You", he was blasting "I Still Hate You". Even mentions "35 years later".
Sorry, what was that about "Picard's ancestor", Spike?
We're 40% done & still no Adam Soong.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
And I guess if she can age at will, she can also de-age at will.
I think we're supposed to be under the impression that the Guinan we see in this episode has the same appearance as she did in Time's Arrow and TNG's run.
Ito Aghayere is 29, and Whoopi Goldberg would have been 33 or so in 1988 when she first played Guinan, so the actors' ages aren't that far off from when the role was originated.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Terry Matalas has confirmed the "they never met in this timeline because of fuckery" theory.
Another deep-cut reference: the tent setup that Guinan gives her shit to is labeled as being part of the 21st Street Mission Project. Guess who started that.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
There were tons of deep cut references (no surprise)…
- The newspaper headline mentioned (Chris) Brynner from “Past Tense.” And we get a date, April 12, 2024, which is several months before the Bell Riots (early September).
- That woman on the Europa project was reading a Dixon Hill novel (which also got an in-dialogue shoutout).
- When Not-Laris beamed Picard out, that cloudy swirl looked awfully like Gary Seven’s transporter. Which means Luna the dog is probably a colleague of Isis the cat.
Overall, Picard (the show) seems to be constantly pulling itself in two directions, between the fast paced action and the deliberate character development. It kinda works, but I agree it feels like not a lot happened this week. Even if we got a good conversation or two between Picard and Guinan, we also got Round Two of Jurati vs. Queenie and another two-minute cameo of Q to remind us he’s here but not actually have him do anything.
Streaming TV storytelling is so frustrating sometimes.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:and another two-minute cameo of Q to remind us he’s here but not actually have him do anything.
Well, except in this episode we appear to be seeing that Q is now powerless to do anything.
quote:So I suppose Guinan must've asked Picard to set up her bar in that specific spot on the Enterprise-D, no?
Well, the Enterprise-D did have like, a lot, of forward facing lounges. Also, it could be that there is some sort of weird psychic afterimage of the possible future that influenced Guinan's decision to name her bar. Just a thought.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:and another two-minute cameo of Q to remind us he’s here but not actually have him do anything.
Well, except in this episode we appear to be seeing that Q is now powerless to do anything.
quote:So I suppose Guinan must've asked Picard to set up her bar in that specific spot on the Enterprise-D, no?
Well, the Enterprise-D did have like, a lot, of forward facing lounges. Also, it could be that there is some sort of weird psychic afterimage of the possible future that influenced Guinan's decision to name her bar. Just a thought.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Posted by Zipacna (Member # 1881) on :
quote:Originally posted by Krenim: Hmm... could be. Doesn't help that effects of time travel shenanigans has always been wildly inconsistent in Trek. Still, it seems like it would have been something Picard would bring up when Guinan didn't recognize him. "You don't remember me? 1893? San Francisco? Data? Mark Twain?"
That is something that does confuse me. I can forgive Guinan for not saying anything (she did, after all, say nothing to him for years about the events in 1893 for timeline reasons and she may just be keeping quiet just to be on the safe side), but it's illogical for Picard to be quiet about it. Suppose we're supposed to ignore it for wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey reasons.
On a different note, I did find it interesting that Chateau Picard has been abandoned since WW2 and that the Picard family ran off to England (presumably until Jean Luc's parents reclaimed it). Nice nod to why a Frenchman is clearly actually an Englishman, even if it is an answer to a question nobody asked. Next up, a sequel to Enterprise that explains why Klingons look different again... Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
A large property in modern-day rural France, filled with vintage wine, rare books and antique furniture; left empty for decades unransacked? Oh, sure, the caretakers. Who’ve missed a fucking spaceship crashing in the garden and a fire in the fireplace.
And as for Picard’s visit from the original future to 1893 not happening, while Kirk and Spock’s similar visit to 1986 happening, well. Terry Matalas has seemingly said that didn’t happen either, but Kirk Thatcher somehow remembers part of the original timeline. And in the first episode Guinan said she can choose to look older (as she’s apparently aged more between 2379 and 2401 than she did between 1893 and 2365) but omitted to mention she can also choose to look completely different. Maybe it’s a symptom of her lack of faith in humanity. Maybe she’ll magically transform into a digitally de-aged Whoopi at the end.
But it’s all just a bit half-arsed, isn’t it?
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote: but Kirk Thatcher somehow remembers part of the original timeline.
This really didn't need an explanation. Yeah, it's the same punk, but in this universe (pick one):
*Evil Kirk & Evil Spock went back in time to abduct some whales, and what happened to him in that version of events is something that would cause you untold nightmares;
*HE JUST GREW THE FUCK UP BUT HE FORGOT HIS AIRPODS AT HOME SO HE'S BLASTING SOME MUSIC ON WAY TO HIS DEAD END JOB OKAY
*But also he's got a thing for leggy blondes who choke him, and this was a confusing moment for him
quote:And in the first episode Guinan said she can choose to look older (as she’s apparently aged more between 2379 and 2401 than she did between 1893 and 2365) but omitted to mention she can also choose to look completely different.
Yeah, they should've just omitted any reference to why Whoopi Goldberg looks like she's aged 30 years, but I think they sometimes worry that Star Trek fans want explanations for everything.
Having said that, Ito Aghayere was fantastic as a young(er) Guinan.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shik: Sorry, what was that about "Picard's ancestor", Spike?
The blonde woman drinking tea and reading a Dixon Hill novel is Renee Picard according to Amazon X-Ray.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I don’t think it’s fair to complain about younger-looking Guinan. Trek — and many other shows — have shown younger or older versions of the same character. When your choices are either recasting or using de-aging effects that still can’t cross the uncanny valley, recasting is easily the better choice.
Besides, this younger Guinan still looks closer to Whoopi than the guy they cast to play aged-up Wesley back in TNG S1. Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spike:
quote:Originally posted by Shik: Sorry, what was that about "Picard's ancestor", Spike?
The blonde woman drinking tea and reading a Dixon Hill novel is Renee Picard according to Amazon X-Ray.
That doesn't make it any less bullshit.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Are we not gonna talk about Agnes Jurati and the Borg Queen!?! Nice carry over from last week. The Borg Queen is just so… ominous. With the subtle eye gazes and looks. Why did she scream for Agnes to come back!?! A+BQ = Best part of the episode (apart from Kirk Thatcher).
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
You think she's ominous? I think she's annoying. She sounds like half my friends' shitty moms growing up.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
But just like that episode of the Simpsons with the yakuza, you just know she’s going to do something!!
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
I've seen some clips and the Borg Queen casting is weird for me, because that actress was just painfully cute on Enterprise. She (and the little fanservice stunt-cast of Rene Auberjonois) carried an otherwise mediocre plot-rehash episode.
So when this lady in Borg getup smiles, I just see "hot blonde" in my head.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)