Every time starships meet, even when they come from the other part of the galaxy, the seem to fly with the right side up, while in the 'real' universe there is no up or down. I have never seen a scene with one ship up-side-down or something like that.
I can think of a non-Star Trek solution. Its the easiest way of filming the models. But that shouldn't be a problem with the CGI's they use now most of the times.
I don't think there is any believable Star Trek answer to this 'problem'
------------------ "There will be an answer, let it be..." Motto of the USS Sutherland
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I think this is one of those things that everybody knows about and just ignores (like the noises the ships make even in the vacuum of space). Some people have come up w/ ideas here and there (such as maybe there is some sort of subspace plane that the ships have to run parallel to at warp), but, basically, it's just something that, if you like, can be accepted/ignored.
------------------ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach him to use the 'net, and he won't bother you for weeks.
Posted by adam on :
hmmm... I do recall That in "All Good Thing..." The Futuristic Ent-D came "up" to attack the "level" Klingon ships attacking the Pastuer. But you are right, it is something that is accepted as "normal"
Posted by Baloo (Member # 5) on :
The best explaination I have heard is that it is an almost universal custom to orient your ship "rightside up" when approaching another vessel, with the possible exception of ships meeting for battle.
A valid point has also been made above, in that since the ships always appear "right-side-up" on screen, this allows the SFX folks to give us (the audience) additional information without having to waste time with on-screen exposition. Just as the sound effects let us know without a doubt that the ship we see moving across the screen is in motion, and not the camera, we know immediately what's happening when we see a familiar vessel type starting to list: "something's wrong".
The use of this sort of cinematic shorthand can be compared to the old western B-movie practice of putting the badguys in black hats and the good guys in white hats. The people in the movie never seemed to recognize this was happening, but the audience did. This allowed the movie maker to get the action going without wasting any time setting up the situation so the audience would know what was going on.
We need no further explaination than that, unless you also propose to answer why the good guys never seemed to notice the villains always wore black hats and started arresting them as soon as they appeared.
--Baloo
------------------ You can't seriously want to ban alcohol. It tastes great, makes women appear more attractive, and makes a person virtually invulnerable to criticism. --Mayor Quimby http://members.tripod.com/~Bob_Baloo/index.htm
[This message has been edited by Baloo (edited December 16, 1999).]
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
There was also a great scene in "Sacrifice of Angels" where the Klingons swoop in from "above' and start trashing Dommie ships. KICK A$$!! I loved that shot!
------------------ "Resolve and thou art free."
Posted by Justin_Timberland (Member # 236) on :
Well, anyone remember the TNG episode where everyone onboard the Enterprise-D de-evolved? Well, Picard and Data on the shuttle had to adjust the shuttle's position to dock in the shuttlebay.
------------------ He can't be unoriginal The way I feel is sexual The way I feel is sexual.
He can't be just intellectual The way I feel is sexual The way I feel is sexual When you're next to me.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Question is, how did they get the shuttlebay door open?
"Data, open the shuttlebay doors."
"I'm afraid I can't do that, Jean-Luc..."
------------------ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach him to use the 'net, and he won't bother you for weeks.
Posted by Lt. Tom on :
Justin_Timberland: Yes, but the Ent-D was listing because she was disabled. Usually ships in trouble are shown off-kilter. Now that I think about it, wasn't she actually rolling? It's been a while since I've seen that episode.
I have a theory about the orientation issue, but I'm too tired to post it right now...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
In Caretaker you can see the Voyager and the Maquis ship at an angle...
------------------ "Its a CLOCK!" - Sisko, "Dramatis Personae" DS9.
Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :
When the Lakota and the Defiant met each other, you can see the Lakota correct it's position as if it was coming from an angle from 'above' (relative to the Defiant).
------------------ Life on Earth is expensive, but it does include a free annual trip around the sun!
(-=\V/=-)
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
In STII, the Reliant seems to perform a roll to match the attitude of the Enterprise. In STVI, Valeris performs a maneuver to come alongside Qo'noS One which also arrives at a distinct angle: "Right standard rudder, Z plus five degrees" (although I don't understand why Z, normally a vertical translation, is given in degrees like rotation...).
What seems illogical is not so much why ships maintain this common "up" even in battle, but why the ships of the opponent do not take *advantage* of this in battle. If Starfleeters are stupid enough to stay in one plane, Klingons or other baddies could all attack from above where no Fed ship can fire torpedoes because the saucers are in the way!
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
OK, all this talk about course corrections makes me think we're on to something here. By the time we see most ships together, they've already detected each other and have altered course to meet. Get that, they've already had to change their course and heading; why not their orientation too? The few times we see ships approaching at skewed angles is usually in battle or when a ship is damaged. No time or ability to match orientation there. But wouldn't an intercept course almost always require some sort of matching orientation? My 2 cents.
------------------ "Resolve and thou art free."
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
Timo: I agree. A (cartesic?) z coordinate hardly makes sense, since the ship directions are usually given in headings or bearings, both in degrees. And where is the required second coordinate for the course? However, z could mean rotation around the z-axis. This would be a possible course for a ship moving in an x-y plane (cartesic), but why use such coordinates in a round galaxy, solar system or planet orbit? If it's a rho-phi plane (cylindric), which would make some sense in a solar system, it is obvious to use phi instead.
------------------ "Naomi Wildman, sub-unit of Ensign Samantha Wildman, state your intentions." (VOY: "Infinite Regress")
[This message has been edited by Bernd (edited December 17, 1999).]
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
OK, I might be way off here... but could the z degrees be like this
*moves hand*
like a see-saw...
\...| .\..| ..\.| ../\| ----
that above is like a 60 degree angle... where x and y directions would be right angles but going into the screen...
Andrew
[This message has been edited by AndrewR (edited December 17, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by AndrewR (edited December 17, 1999).]
Posted by Alshrim Dax (Member # 258) on :
The pitch of the ship is controled by the RCS (Reaction Control System) - It is automatic. It sets pitch and vector constantly, tho' one can set it manually.
This is right out of the ST:TM:
Spacecraft Intercept
This requires Conn to specify a target spacecraft on which a tactical sensor lock has been established. This also requires Conn to specify either a relative closing speed r an intercept time so that a speed can be determined. An absolute warp velocity can also be specified. navigational software will determine an optimal flight path based on specified speed and tactical projection of target vehicle's flight path. (** I'd imagine that would include pitch and vector) Several variations of this mode are available for use druing combat situations.
So, in essense, the computer takes care of that for you, based on the the target ship's relative positions and vector.
------------------ - Alshrim Dax The Other Dax
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I would guess that 'Z' probably refers to rotation around the Z axis...
------------------ "Back in the 14th century, stair-stepping to the oldies was not considered manly." -John Scalzi, on the longbow as the best weapon of the second millennium
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
And more specifically, Z refers to rotation around the vertical axis of the ship, not of the galaxy.
So what Valeris was doing was to turn the ship to starboard five degrees without banking or otherwise twisting the ship. A sensible maneuver, and one where it is more practical to use specific instructions like this than to simply give a heading in XXX mark YYY and let the computer select a suitable attitude (as Dax quoted from the TNG TM).
The XXX mark YYY system should be reserved for headings and bearings, with fine maneuvering and attitude control either 1) left to the computer, 2) handled by the helmsman in silence, without micromanaging from the captain or 3) directed using command language radically different from the XXX mark YYY nomenclature, to avoid confusion.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Of course, the writers apparently don't know sometimes what the x mark Y system even is. Like when the Y value is between 90 and 270. Or when either of the numbers is greater than 360...
"Ensign, set a course of 875 mark 0. Mabe spinning the ship around a few times will confuse them..."
------------------ "'...This boy is Ignorance. This girl is Want. Beware them both, and all of their degree, but most of all beware this boy, for on his brow I see that written which is Doom, unless the writing be erased. Deny it!' cried the Spirit stretching out its hand towards the city. 'Slander those who tell it ye! Admit it for your factious purposes, and make it worse. And abide the end!'" -Charles Dickens, A Christmas Carol
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
In Star Trek VI, Chang's BoP launched a torpedo from below the Enterprise, which rose up and smashed vertically into the Enterprise Saucer Section. Which meant that the BoP was at a 90-degree angle to the Enterprise.
*I always loved that shot.....*
------------------ I can resist anything....... Except Temptation
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
The Excelsior got an uppercut too, which means it had yawed to the same level as the Ent, to get the same lick.
------------------ -You are crazy. -I thought I was pisces.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Or the torp could've altered course so that it would hit the flat side of the saucers. But this was a battle condition so all the ships were likely moving around alot. It's probably a combination of the two.
------------------ "Resolve and thou art free."
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
This thread especially the bits about Star Trek: VI has made me remember Kirk's Line back up back UP! and the E reverses... and the klingons wonder if they have been spotted... it strikes me as ironic - it was this OPPOSITE mentality that got Kirk out of the clutches of Kahn... or this linear nature i.e. forward and reverse that got Kahn killed.
------------------ "Its a CLOCK!" - Sisko, "Dramatis Personae" DS9.