Yes, that seed of an idea has been slowly growing in my brain ever since I stumbled on that Deep Space Nine thread where someone suggested that a Alpha/Beta Quadrant map by me could perhaps settle an argument. Not having one, I couldn't help, thus this project.
However, I cannot do this alone. I require your help. I need to compile as much data on the structure of the Alpha/Beta Quadrants as is humanly possible, as stated onscreen. Any piece of data would be appreciated. For each, I need:
Required:
- Starting point.
- Destination.
Any (or all) of the following:
- Travel time.
- Warp factor.
- Heading (not bearing, bearings are useless).
Or, if a place is mentioned to be near another place, you could mention that.
Be sure to include the series and episode from which your nugget(s) of information originates.
Information on the location of real stars mentioned in Star Trek would also be of immense help.
Of course, there are some contradictions I will most likely have to gloss over (like the Earth-Bajor travel time problem), but I'll do my best.
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"Not so fast, Space Clown! My time-space manipulator has assembled an army of invisible cavemen to block your reverse polarity ray!"
- Future Man, Curses, Space Ghost: Coast to Coast.
Boris
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The above post was mulled-over, composed, and posted during time Tom would have better spent on his plethora of homework and homework-related exercises. Now don't you feel special?
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"Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?"
--
M. Doughty
The Tal Shiar project... I'd forgotten about that... How far did you guys get on that, anyway?
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"Not so fast, Space Clown! My time-space manipulator has assembled an army of invisible cavemen to block your reverse polarity ray!"
- Future Man, Curses, Space Ghost: Coast to Coast.
Here are a few:
Romulan Space must be close to the Federation - in particular Earth.
1. For a 'war' to be conducted in low-warp ships
2. For the sector numbering Terran System sector 001 the Romulan neutral zone sector numbers 30 I think.
3. In Past Tense - when the timeline had been changed - the Romulans were the closest spacefaring civilisations - they had settlements on the usually densly populated Rigel system planets.
The Borg ship from BOBW - had to approach Earth from the area of Wolf 359 (The Best of Both Worlds)
Klingon Sector numbers are in the low hundreds... and the Cardassian Sector numbers are in the 10 000's (The Wounded)
The Klingon Empire DEFINATELY boarders with the UFP and the RSE. but not necessarily with the CU - since the Klingon ships in "The Way of the Warrior" had had a long journey... and that it was going to be hard for the Klingons to keep the Territory they had captured from the Cardassians. (The Way of the Warrior) (Broken Link) re Arcanis (The Trouble With Tribbles) re deep space station K7 - the K maybe a reference to the Klingon Neutral Zone. The Battle of Klack'Dkel Bracht - (The Sword of Kahless) Khitomer (The Undiscovered Country), (Heart of Glory) et al
The Federation boarders with the Gorn
Cestus III is still a Federation colony and is on the other side of the Federation from Space Station Deep Space Nine. (Family Business) (Arena)
The Ferengi have to be closer to the Cardassians and Far away enough from the Federation to not have contact until the beginning of the year 41000 (Encounter at Farpoint) Quark's presence on Terok Nor (Emissary et al.)
The Ferengi are 'far away from home' if they are in the Romulan Neutral Zone as well as Talarians... (Heart Of Glory)
The Ferengi must lie close to the Breen - since the Breen traded warp technology secrets for their poles and several icy moons.
The Klaestron - both members of the UFP and allies with The Cardassian Union - must lie close to the Cardassian Union. (The have a long friend ship) (Dax) It must also be close to DS9 for the quick arrival of the people in question in "Dax". Also convenient for Dr. Bashir's replacement by a shapeshifter when he was supposed to be going to a conference there.
Praxis and thus Q'Onos must lie close to the Alpha/Beta Quadrant boarder or actually be in the Beta Quadrant... For Sulu and the Excelsior to be close enough to be picking up the distress signals from Brigadier Kurla. (The Undiscovered Country)
Cardassia and Talaria lie on the "Western Side" of the UFP - according to the Encylopaedia.
The Tholian Assembly must lie close to the Klingon Empire to be pulled into conflict in the advent of a Klingon civil war. They must also lie close to the Romulans and the Federation to need to be included in Discussions between the two powers. (Homefront)
The inner worlds of the Federation probably include Vulcan, Andor, Tellar, Earth, the Rigel system and Berengaria. (In the Cards)
I'm sure there are others on my list - since this was all off by heart...
Andrew
Oh the Hypurian System must lie close to or now be part of the Ferengi Alliance - since the war between the two worlds and the now apparent 'slave' situation of the Hypurian people. (The Nagus) (The Rules of Aquisition) et al.
The Xendi Sabu system probably lies outside the boundaries of the Federation and possibly with in the boundaries of the Ferengi Alliance. (The Battle)
The Neberrite Alliance is VERY far away from DS9. (The Way of the Warrior)
Galornden Core is in or close to the Romulan Neutral Zone. (The Enemy) (Unification)
Romulus/Remus and Vulcan must not lie too far away from one another for the Ships in "Unification" To get very far.
Andrew
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"Who wouldn't be the one you love
Who wouldn't stand inside your love." - Stand Inside Your Love, The Smashing Pumpkins
quote:
The inner worlds of the Federation probably include Vulcan, Andor, Tellar, Earth, the Rigel system and Berengaria. (In the Cards
Who live on Berengaria?
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If you want to get your soul to heaven,
trust in me.
Don't judge or question.
You are broken now,
but faith can heal you.
Just do everything I tell you to do.
Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow.
Let me lay my holy hand upon you.
-Tool, "Opiate"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prakesh's Star Trek Site
But wait, wasn't that an Animated Series reference? Wasn't Berengaria the planet with those dragons?
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"Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?"
--
M. Doughty
As for the Tal Shiar Cartographic Survey, its been long dead. We got as far as any three people get when they try to take on a task that is just too ridiculously large. Get the picture. Sol, what stuff do you still have left from that?
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"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"
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"The search and the arrest provided several hours of entertainment in the neighborhood."
-"Worm Suspect Arrested", Wired News
So far.
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"Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?"
--
M. Doughty
First contact with the Klingons happened at least 150 years after first ontact with the Romulans. (Encyc & TOS, The Balace of Terror)
Tzenkethi must be close to Federation and also be close to DS9 since the Defiant was sent there to 'fly the flag' why not anyone else... (The Adversary)
I reckon that Talos V - is close to Earth - for the SS Columbia?? to get there. (The Cage/The Menagerie)
I reckon Qualor II and Vulcan and the Romulan Neutral Zone are close by to each other (Unification)
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"Who wouldn't be the one you love
Who wouldn't stand inside your love." - Stand Inside Your Love, The Smashing Pumpkins
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"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia
------------------
"Who wouldn't be the one you love
Who wouldn't stand inside your love." - Stand Inside Your Love, The Smashing Pumpkins
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"The search and the arrest provided several hours of entertainment in the neighborhood."
-"Worm Suspect Arrested", Wired News
Jake and Ben Sisko got from Earth to DS9 in "Defiant" within 13 days, as inferred from dialogue. Any more time than that would make jaunts to Earth from DS9 (Past Tense, Homefront, Tears of the Prophets) unfeasible.
"The border" was mentioned during Soldiers of the Empire, which implies the Cardies and Klingons do touch. And the CU and KE had a historical incident involving some nebula that was mentione in WotW--A Border dispute?
The Breen attacked the Klingon homeworld a long time ago, implying fairly close distances. Breen space is within three days travel time of the Badlands. (Strange Bedfellows or thereabouts)
It's probably possible to go between Cardassia and Romulus without going through the Federation, as these two had a clandestine relationship in the past.
The Miradorn have stopped by DS9 once. No idea how far away they are, but obviously not years and years away.
Doesn't some okudagram from Insurrection show the Son'a near the Crab Nebula or some other real galactic phenomena?
The Talarians border the Federation, and based on the chronology of s5 TNG, are probably fairly close to the Klingons/Rommies.
Mintaka (real star) was in Who Watches the Watchers. Based on ethnicity of inhabitants, might it be close to Vulcans/Romulans. Likewise, some real star whose name escapes me was in "The Last Outpost," implying close proximity to the Ferengi.
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The above post was mulled-over, composed, and posted during time Tom would have better spent on his plethora of homework and homework-related exercises. Now don't you feel special?
As for Mintaka, it's even worse than Rigel. It's closer to 1500ly away...
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"The search and the arrest provided several hours of entertainment in the neighborhood."
-"Worm Suspect Arrested", Wired News
About the Talarians - OK this is getting confusing -- according to The Encyc - they place it on the 'WEST' of the Federation closer to the 'Western part' of Cardassia and the Federation (Cause I think the 'eastern' part of Cardassia is where DS9 is).
Were the Talarians mentioned in Season 5 TNG? I thought that Suddenly Human was Season 4 - filmed before Family but shown after it.
I need Clarification of Talarians Tarellians, Tamarians, Terallians, Tallrians etc etc.
I know at Least "Tamarians" or The Children of Tama from "Darmok".
Who have the four arms... as per Amarie in "Unification" and "Liasons" and - the cut scene with Martha Hackett in "All Good Things..."
The Batris from "Heart of Glory" was "Talerian - acording to Picard I think - "Far from home"
Andrew
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"Who wouldn't be the one you love
Who wouldn't stand inside your love." - Stand Inside Your Love, The Smashing Pumpkins
Talarians: the guys from "Suddenly Human"; border Feds and Cardassians; used to have border wars w/ Feds but not since '57
Tarellians: the plague people from "Haven"
Tellarites: our pig-nosed hairball friends from "Journey to Babel"
Tellurians: mentioned in "The Most Toys"
Terellians/Terrelians: the four-armers
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"The search and the arrest provided several hours of entertainment in the neighborhood."
-"Worm Suspect Arrested", Wired News
The "border" mentioned in "Soldiers of the Empire could refer to the fact that the Klingons conquered Cardassian planets in "Way of the Warrior" and dug in. There would be a border between these holdings, and the Cardassian Union. Admittedly, the Dominion forces supposedly drove the Klingons out of former Cardassian space a few episodes earlier, but it would stand to reason that there would be worlds taken by the Klingons just outside the former Cardassian Union as well. These would not be connected to the rest of the Klingon Empire directly.
The earlier clash between the Cardassians and the Klingons took place in Betreka nebula and lasted for 18 years. But it's not told if the said nebula actually touched the territories of either side. Both could have been fighting for expanding their holdings into previously unclaimed space, by sending long-range expeditions - so there wouldn't necessarily be a common border.
The Breen/Klingon clashes could have taken place across extremely long ranges. Worf relates to the disappearance of an entire expeditionary armada during "the Second Empire" - complete "disappearance" would probably not be possible if the distances were short, and the loss would instead be known as "destruction".
The Romulans can access just about anybody through just about anybody's space, by using their cloaked ships. It is implausible for any empire to erect a sensor network that could spot cloaked ships across their entire border surface of thousands of ly^2.
And in more general terms, even if somebody claims an area of space doesn't mean others cannot travel through it with ease. It takes active effort to keep others away from your turf - dense sensor nets of millions of sensor drones, hundreds of starships to challenge intruders, constant patrols. Most races might not consider it worthwhile to go for hermetically sealed borders, but would instead strive to repel attacks when they reach their destination and the enemy is in a single, predictable location, clustered around the target star system.
Further, some races might prefer to expand their holdings by moving gradually from system to system. Others would simply skip uninteresting systems as long as nobody was challenging their advances. The former approach would lead to compact, powerful and well defended empires, while the latter would produce huge but "porous" ones, empires that would not have "borders" in the traditional sense at all.
Mintaka is indeed beyond Rigel, which suggests it is not near Vulcan or any other "UFP core world". If the vulcanoids on Mintaka were transplanted, this was probably done by an advanced race - and probably those can travel across greater distances than the "mundane" races.
The Ferengi could have been spotted first near Gamma Tauri because they preferred to practice their piracy far away from their home turf, so as not to alarm their local clientele.
Timo Saloniemi
Andrew
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"Who wouldn't be the one you love
Who wouldn't stand inside your love." - Stand Inside Your Love, The Smashing Pumpkins
Romulans shouldn't actually be ANYWHERE except inside their Neutral Zone - their every excursion out of that Zone is supposedly illegal. I have no problem with them using their cloaks to freely travel everywhere in the neighborhood, though. When we see a Romulan ship, it's actually a good bet that we are far away from Romulan space!
Perhaps there's a nice little loophole in the Neutral Zone treaty: if a Romulan ship is observed entering the Zone, this is an act of war - but if it isn't observed, then war need not be declared even if the ship later is witnessed outside the Zone!
Timo Saloniemi
Andrew
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"Who wouldn't be the one you love
Who wouldn't stand inside your love." - Stand Inside Your Love, The Smashing Pumpkins
------------------
"Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?"
--
M. Doughty
------------------
"The search and the arrest provided several hours of entertainment in the neighborhood."
-"Worm Suspect Arrested", Wired News
It would only stand to reason that the RNZ was originally agreed to be of roughly the size of the Earthspace of that era, but not significantly larger than that (the loser of the war wouldn't get *that* much in concession). Later expansion would then have allowed Earth/UFP to completely surround the Romulans, who clearly didn't put up a resistance since we know no contact was made during the century of 2161-2265.
In contrast, it is unlikely that Romulan territory grew at all between 2161 and TOS - Starfleet ran wargames at Canopus, which in all likelihood is on the "backside" of Romulus if the rough maps we have seen in the episodes are any indication (Romulus supposedly lies "east" of Earth, and Canopus is "far east" - 200 ly or so, when the nearside Romulan border must be closer than that to allow for "First Contact" travel times). So Starfleet should have been able to note if the Romulans expanded in a direction away from Earth, and should have taken action. And as said, we already know Starfleet did no such thing.
We don't know if the Romulans have expanded out of the RNZ or renegotiated its size and shape *after* TOS. In any case, their ships seem to move freely outside the RNZ nowadays, and actually did so in DS9 and Voyager references ("Paradise", "Eye of a Needle") even before they formed the current military alliance.
The Klingon NZ probably never enclosed either the KE or the UFP, but was just a surface erected between the empires where they touched. But the Romulan NZ could logically be a bubble that fully enclosed the RSE ("Balance of Terror" even explicitly states that it separates the planets Romulus and Remus from the rest of the galaxy, as of 2265, which would seem to support the assumption of a full bubblelike enclosure).
Even if the RNZ completely surrounds the RSE, the UFP need not touch that RNZ from every side. Parts of the RNZ could border "empty" space, and movement across those parts would still be theoretically forbidden even if Starfleet wasn't there to enforce the treaty. Other parts of the RNZ could border on former (vintage 2161) "empty" space that actually is part of the Klingon Empire now, and again Starfleet would be unable to prevent movement across that stretch of the Zone (or to prevent the constant border wars that apparently rage between those two empires).
Timo Saloniemi
Also, Even though Fed systems might be 'behind' the RSE - the RSE space might be above or below - and so the Fed space would be unbroken - not going "around"
Or that might be a thin part of the RSE with the rest of the Empire faning back out into the Beta Quadrant...
Andrew
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"Who wouldn't be the one you love
Who wouldn't stand inside your love." - Stand Inside Your Love, The Smashing Pumpkins
- I finally got around to fixing the errors that have cropped up in my parametric equations for the Alpha Quadrant powers, since they will be my starting point.
- I'm now currently creating a huge grid (15000 ly X 15000 ly @ 10 ly/pixel), with a circle signifying basically where the Federation will be, and vectors pointing from Earth to basically where the Romulans, Klingons, and Cardassians should be. I'll post it as soon as I'm done with it, so that everyone can argue *exactly* where minor powers (such as the Tholians, Gorn, Miradorn, etc.) go.
- Once I finish the grid, I'll try to superimpose real stars on it. I'd really like to get permission from Christian (from the ST Dimension) to use his listing, but I'm reluctant to ask. Bernd and Boris seem to know him, is there anyway either of you two could ask for me?
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"Not so fast, Space Clown! My time-space manipulator has assembled an army of invisible cavemen to block your reverse polarity ray!"
- Future Man, Curses, Space Ghost: Coast to Coast.
BTW, if anyone's interested, I think Romulus might be located around the star 107 Piscium. It's of the same stellar type as 40-Eridani-A, and fairly close to it. Might be worth considering...
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"Numerous painful experiences can be caused by having (and especially using) a large penis."
-J. Ralf Lenz, president, Large Penis Support Group
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"While it is true that 15% of home accidents are caused by large penis related incidents, only a small number have ever been known to be fatal."
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"Numerous painful experiences can be caused by having (and especially using) a large penis."
-J. Ralf Lenz, president, Large Penis Support Group
In other words, from our supposedly objective perspective, we know that the Romulans have been actively working to encourage hostilities between the Federation and the Klingons for a long time. It seems clear that we're meant to connect the dots here and see the ambassador as part of a larger Romulan plan.
Even if this isn't true, it would certainly be an assumption that the parties involved would make.
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"While it is true that 15% of home accidents are caused by large penis related incidents, only a small number have ever been known to be fatal."
They'd try to form alliances, first with the Klingons and then with the UFP. When that didn't help enough, they'd go aggressive (perhaps in the Tomed incident) and expand in directions not yet physically blocked by the Feds or the Klingons. The Feds would choose not to go to war over these volumes of space if they didn't have to, since the Romulans would indicate willingness to settle for a simple renegotiation of the RNZ boundaries.
In any case, the original strictly enforced RNZ siege was gone by ST6, since there WAS such a thing as a Romulan ambassador. It was probably not truly enforced in the first place, though, if the Klingons could go in and enter an alliance. But none of this would seem to directly preclude the existence of an all-englobing RNZ prior to TNG, or a possibly enlarged all-encompassing RNZ in TNG and later shows.
Timo Saloniemi
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The above post was mulled-over, composed, and posted during time Tom would have better spent on his plethora of homework and homework-related exercises. Now don't you feel special?
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"Numerous painful experiences can be caused by having (and especially using) a large penis."
-J. Ralf Lenz, president, Large Penis Support Group
FWIW, I imagine the NZ would be closer to Romulus than to Earth, considering Earth was the victorious power. It still means that the EE had to run like hell for several days to intercept the Borg at Earth in First Contact, but I can live w/that.
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"Truth about Santa Claus debunks Santa God. God evolves from Santa."
-Gene Ray, http://www.timecube.com
Triangulum Australe is even in the galactic plane, near Alpha Centauri. And didn't the Romulans reside in Alpha Centauri in the "Past Tense" alternate timeline? This could suggest they came from that general direction and hadn't reached Earth yet in that timeline.
There are plenty of suitable stars in the Tri Australe constellation - it's one of those constellations that displays "asterism", that is, most of the stars are actually located near each other instead of just happening to be in the same direction when viewed from Earth. The closest stars would be somewhere in the dozen-ly range, and then it's a steady progression to hundreds of lightyears.
I think Tri Australe is wonderful as the location of Romulan space in every respect. And just because there isn't a 128 Tri there yet doesn't mean we couldn't name one of the dimmer stars thusly...
Timo Saloniemi
1 pixel = 10 ly.
1 square = 1000 ly.
Now... What goes where?
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"Not so fast, Space Clown! My time-space manipulator has assembled an army of invisible cavemen to block your reverse polarity ray!"
- Future Man, Curses, Space Ghost: Coast to Coast.
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"Truth about Santa Claus debunks Santa God. God evolves from Santa."
-Gene Ray, http://www.timecube.com
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"This is Major Tom to ground control. I'm stepping through the door, and I'm floating in a most peculiar way. And the stars look very different today..."
-David Bowie, "Space Oddity"
------------------
"Not so fast, Space Clown! My time-space manipulator has assembled an army of invisible cavemen to block your reverse polarity ray!"
- Future Man, Curses, Space Ghost: Coast to Coast.
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"Truth about Santa Claus debunks Santa God. God evolves from Santa."
-Gene Ray, http://www.timecube.com
[This message has been edited by The_Tom (edited June 05, 2000).]
