Given that the TNG/TOS era is pretty much over, and that we'll see few new data on that time period, I thought it appropriate to finally nail down the key dates of the period, using the show as the ultimate reference as opposed to any official chronologies.
Unlike the official timeline, this one is based on just one assumption: that the accepted order of the episodes is correct and that overlapping seasons of DS9/TNG and DS9/VOY actually overlap in real time. Should serious problems arise, I will naturally discard this assumption likewise. The Timeline Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
This looks interesting. You might want to think of submitting it to The Science Fiction Timeline Site, http://www.chronology.org/. . ?
Posted by darkwing_duck1 (Member # 790) on :
Interesting...
There's another possibility for the "2283" date on the Romulan Ale in TWoK...it was a joke. Note how the lines concering the date and the "ferment" reference were delivered. The date may not even have been on the bottle, and Kirk was kidding around w/McCoy.
Romulan ale almost seems like "rotgut" whisky. No one bothers with dating that sort of thing.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I'd say Romulan Ale = absinthe more than it does that.
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
Thanks. The important thing is that the Romulan Ale bottle date could be *something* else, while the 15-year statements are difficult to disprove (let's see...Khan got the date wrong, and Chekov mentioned it to Kirk offscreen without bothering to check (pun intended), who then mentioned it to Carol without checking either.)
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Incidently, Boris, I'm still slowly playing around with my own attempt along similar lines.
Er...I had something specific to say about the intersection between the efforts, but now I forget. Because I am stupid.
And by saying that, I cleverly co-opt all criticism!
*sigh*
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
That Simon, what a hoot. It's like there's a party in his brain, and everyone's invited. 8)
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
In so far as dating First Contact ... remember that the Defiant's crew also wore the new-style uniforms, which wouldn't make sense unless DS9 also had recieved them.
Also, not that this tells anything, remember Worf's line when he learned Keiko was expecting a second child ... ? Not to mention LaForge's line that the Enterprise had just finished a year-long space-trial.
I would suggest that "the recent Borg attack" has to be directly prior to "In Purgatory's Shadow", since (if I recall correctly) this was the first DS9 episode to feature the FC uniforms.
[ March 27, 2002, 07:38: Message edited by: Malnurtured Snay ]
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
I remember something about visiting his parents back on Earth, while the pregnancy and all doesn't exactly influence the time of First Contact in any way.
As for the uniforms:
1) Some of the Ent-D officers were still using the jumpsuits while the rest of the crew had switched to two-part uniforms.
2) Some of the TNG crew were using DS9 uniforms in "Generations" while nobody else in the fleet was, with the exception of Voyager's crew.
3) Voyager's crew never bothered to change to the new style, despite having known about the uniforms since "Message in the Bottle."
This shows that uniform changes are by no means instantaneous or even universal.
La Forge's line is more problematic, but it's probably unrealistic to think that Starfleet would have had the Ent-E ready for Picard the minute his other ship was destroyed. Maybe Starfleet wasn't sure which ship to name the Enterprise for quite some time, and even considered an entirely new class, before they settled on a ship of the Sovereign-class, a somewhat controversial vessel with a more militaristic nature that could've been undergoing testing and shakedown for a year.
Or maybe they did know that it would be a Sovereign, and Worf and O'Brien were simply out of the loop. The former certainly, given his time on Borath, while the latter has enough troubles keeping DS9 and Defiant in top shape without worrying about the Enterprise situation.
Boris
[ March 27, 2002, 08:28: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:This shows that uniform changes are by no means instantaneous or even universal.
But, Boris, if DS9 hadn't recieved the new uniform, why were Worf & the crew of the Defiant wearing them? I agree with you about uniform changes not being "instantaneous", especially since we saw the Admiral's staff in the first DS9 ep with the new uniforms wearing the OLD uniforms! And I never thought of the DS9 uniforms as a "new" uniform, but an alternitive uniform, which is why crew on the E-D wore one, or both.
But, since Worf and the Defiant helmsman wearing the new uniform, it's logical to assume that DS9 had, at least, just prior to Worf's departure, recieved the new uniforms.
Given that the Enterprise-E had just completed a year-long space-trial, this seems to fit in rather nicely with about the time of the Enterprise-D's destruction a year earlier, and time to spare for an investigation into the E-D's crash, and commissioning of the E-E.
quote:I remember something about visiting his parents back on Earth, while the pregnancy and all doesn't exactly influence the time of First Contact in any way.
The line was something along the lines of:
O'Brien: Did you hear? Keiko's having a baby!
Worf: Uh ... when?
O'Brien: About seven months.
Worf: Oh. Er, I'll be on Earth. Visiting my parents.
And, while you're right, the Borg certainly didn't time the attack to coincide with Worf's trip home, the fact that Worf WAS at Earth for the battle in about the time-period mentioned (seven months later), can be seen as a coincidence.
I'm not attacking your time line. I'm just bringing up some points you didn't mention. Specificly, Worf and the Defiant dressed in FC uniforms, and Geordi's line about the year-long space trial. The Keiko bit is just a coincidence.
quote:Or maybe they did know that it would be a Sovereign, and Worf and O'Brien were simply out of the loop.
Not neccessarily. First Contact took place in DS9's fifth season, while Worf came onto DS9 at the beginning of the fourth season, where this line was mentioned. Shortly after WoTW, the Enterprise could've been comissioned and sent on her space-trials.
[ March 27, 2002, 08:31: Message edited by: Malnurtured Snay ]
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
If Data and Geordi are able to switch uniforms on a fly in "Generations", I'm sure everyone else can, likewise. Troi changed her uniform many times, and so did Picard (sometimes wearing his jacket) and Kirk. We know that the uniform code is something suggested by the Captain (Jellico told her to wear a standard uniform), and that Picard was more relaxed in this regard.
Sisko might've been more strict, but he wasn't commanding the Defiant at this point. This was a specific mission to defend Earth, and it could've made sense to blend in with the rest of the fleet, as a sign of unity against the Borg. I'm sure that Worf, who's rather tradition-bound, would've welcomed such an idea.
[ March 27, 2002, 08:49: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
I think you're really stretching it, Boris.
Given that the Enterprise-E required a year-long shakedown cruise, given that Sisko referenced First Contact as being recent, and given that Worf & Co. were wearing First Contact uniforms, I think it makes sense to say that First Contact took place betwen "For The Uniform" and "In Purgatory's Shadow."
Worf isn't going to give fuck one about what uniform everyone is wearing. He's going to be busy running drills, and making sure the ship is combat ready. He's certainly not going to care about "fleet unity", which, IMHO, is a ridiculous idea. What, they've all gotta wear the same uniform to be "unified"?
quote:If Data and Geordi are able to switch uniforms on a fly in "Generations", I'm sure everyone else can, likewise. Troi changed her uniform many times, and so did Picard (sometimes wearing his jacket) and Kirk. We know that the uniform code is something suggested by the Captain (Jellico told her to wear a standard uniform), and that Picard was more relaxed in this regard.
You keep refering back to "Generations" as evidence of your claims. I think this is bollucks. The DS9/Next Gen uniforms were used in concert for at least four or five years. It strikes me that the DS9 variant is an alternative uniform, not an entirely NEW uniform.
Troi's dresses, apparently, are Captain's discretion, and not part of the Starfleet Uniform Code, or Jellico couldn't order her not to wear them. Picard's jacket, OTOH, is an alternate duty uniform under that same Code. In my opinion (and this is backed up by the Generations uniform swaps), the DS9 uniform is listed under the Uniform Code as an alternative uniform, with the option of the CO to make it the standard. You're reaching with your comparissions, Boris.
The First Contact uniform is obviously a whole new Code -- you don't see the dress uniforms continued for long before they TOO are replaced. It's pretty clear that Starfleet has upgraded the code, and that the TNG/DS9 uniforms are on the way out. If DS9 had access to the new uniforms (as evidenced by Worf and the crew of the Defiant), then they would start wearing them right THERE and THEN, and not leave them in the closests for a month.
Listen, Boris, it's your timeline. You're just making things harder for yourself by explaining that Worf ran around the Defiant ordering everyone to strip naked and dress in the new uniform.
[ March 27, 2002, 09:19: Message edited by: Malnurtured Snay ]
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
Well, you must consider all the possibilities, and pick the theory that is most difficult to disprove. If you're right then the following must be true:
1) Picard made a mistake in his official log entry, saying "nearly six years" instead of "nearly seven years". That means he made the mistake of adding up six and seven to twelve, instead of thirteen while calculating 2366+7. He reused the same "six years" when speaking to Lily.
2) Data had sex a year after "The Naked Now"
Ok, I grant you, these two are more likely. But I still had to consider all the possibilities.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Yeah, I think those can be chalked up to the writers not calculating when the movie would be shown.
Picard's mistake is easily attibuted to "human error" -- an honest mistake, under stress easily seen from learning of a new Borg invasion. Data is harder to explain, but ... who knows? Maybe he was experimenting with lies.
But, IMO, the uniforms, the year-long shakedown, and Sisko's "recently" all seem to peg First Contact as mid-DS9 fifth season or so.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"I think it makes sense to say that First Contact took place betwen 'For The Uniform' and 'In Purgatory's Shadow.'"
If I'm remembering correctly, there was a reference to FC in IPS? So it has to come before that. But why after FtU? It could be any time after "The Ascent" (the episode before "Rapture", which was the first appearance of the uniforms on DS9).
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Oh, sorry, for some reason I was thinking IPS was the first ep with the new uniforms. So, switch that
quote:So it has to come before that
Well, yes, Tim, that's why I said it took place BETWEEN. In other words, after the one, but before the other. Or, in between. Thanks for nixpixing my episode mix-up, but I think you might want to nixpix your own ... ! Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Erm... I was confirming what you'd already said that was right. Then I was correcting the part that was wrong. Where's the flaw in it?
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