Whenever we see security or military forces in Trek, with the exceprion of those wierd-ass looking sec force guys in the TOS movies, they wear no protective armour of any type. Even the MACOs in ENT, or Starfleet Ground troops in DS9, both dedicated military forces, dont wear any armour. Wouldn't there be some form of "bullet resistant vest" for them to wear. There are appearently alloys that are weapons resistant in trek, so why not combine them with certain fibers ( which I'm sure can be done by the 22nd,or 23rd century) to make a vest to at least give those guys some form of protection against stun settings? ( I doubt that you would get any protection against a kill setting, just as a bullet resistant vest can not protect you from getting shot in the head.)
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
I can't really see armor being that effective. it it gets hit, it boils away &...well.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
This is along the lines of what I was thinking. i know it's non cannon, but it seems sound.
From Rigil Kent's "Endeavour": Vigrid
[He�d been shot, that much was clear, and the reflec-mesh he wore under the modified tac-vest had saved his life once more.
Called a 'twinkle suit' by some more vocal detractors for its distinctive appearance, the mesh was made up of thousands of tiny lenses atop a flexible underlay and immediately brought to mind an obnoxiously sequined shirt. The lenses were meant to absorb and disperse the lethal power of most particle beams, while the underlay was designed to reflect the killing heat of such an attack. Against blunt trauma such as a physical blow or slugthrower, however, the twinkle suit was worse than useless as the shattered lens fragments often became embedded in flesh wounds. MACO black ops had been experimenting with the twinkle suits for several years, but the prohibitively high price tag and the difficulty in maintaining them meant mass production was unlikely.]
It makes sense to me, but I'm probably missing a big and obvious piece of the puzzle
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
When I first read the title of this thread, I thought it was going to be a lecture at Starfleet Academy about the importance of wearing condoms when visiting alien planets.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
It's a new course, tought by captain Will Riker, with footnotes from the late Captain James T. Kirk.
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
That's because TOS had to wait like a couple decades before someone made the (insert what movie since Star Tripping Troopers) props that got whored around the world...
of course, by the late 2000-2010's, all the sci-fi shows used H.E.Heinlin Prop helms and P-90's...
We are talking about Armor, right?
Hah, if 'Flesh Gordon' was made today, they'd use the prop armor from Starship Troopers, too... maybe, crotch CGI...
speaking of which, goes modern pr0n use CGI?
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I would not know, as I find that perticular venue rather disturbing.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Ya know, I read the subject and thought this had something to do with Kirk and Riker and a thousand various alien babes...
--Jonah
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I originally titled it Why Are Starfleet Security Forces Complete Retards? but I thought that would offend some people.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
No, I think you were onto something with your original title.
--Jonah
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pensive's Wetness: That's because TOS had to wait like a couple decades before someone made the (insert what movie since Star Tripping Troopers) props that got whored around the world...
of course, by the late 2000-2010's, all the sci-fi shows used H.E.Heinlin Prop helms and P-90's...
Not having seen Starship Troopers, I can't say for sure, but how about the "purple-belly" armor made for Firefly? Surely something that specific must have been new...
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
All complaining about props aside, it just boggles my mind that starfleet would send their troops in harms way without some form of protection from enemy fire. If the U.S were to send troops into battle without body armour, the Gov't would not hear the end of in. I'm pretty sure someone in the federation cares about the welfare of it's servicemen.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Zing!
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
One words says it all.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Keep in mind that a phaser set at maximum can reduce several feet of solid rock to glowing embers, I doubt there's much you can do against that, short of a portable shield generator. As for protection against stun setting; exactly how many engagements have we seen where ANYONE other than Starfleet has gone into combat with phasers on stun?
However, there have been examples of "armour" in use. The Starfleet security guards in the movies are seen wearing large chest pieces and sometimes helmets too. In ST:V the "Federation Soldiers" were equipped with what looked like riot shields and the Starfleet Tactical Soldiers seen on DS9 have what look like a heavy duty uniform, so it could be made of some exotic, layered material that offers more protection than it might appear. The holy grail of armour, after all is something that as strong as a metal plate but light and flexible as cotton. Given that it is science fiction, just because the actor's costumes are made of polyester and cotton, doesn't mean the character's uniforms are.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Huh?
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan:
quote:Originally posted by Pensive's Wetness: That's because TOS had to wait like a couple decades before someone made the (insert what movie since Star Tripping Troopers) props that got whored around the world...
of course, by the late 2000-2010's, all the sci-fi shows used H.E.Heinlin Prop helms and P-90's...
Not having seen Starship Troopers, I can't say for sure, but how about the "purple-belly" armor made for Firefly? Surely something that specific must have been new...
Nooo, those are actually from Assfuck Troopers as well. Joss said so in one of the commentaries. (I think it was "Train Job")
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sean: All complaining about props aside, it just boggles my mind that starfleet would send their troops in harms way without some form of protection from enemy fire. If the U.S were to send troops into battle without body armour, the Gov't would not hear the end of in. I'm pretty sure someone in the federation cares about the welfare of it's servicemen.
You mean like how Dragon Skin armor is much more effective than regular kevlar armor, almost miraculously so, but because of a bit of a high price tag they won't mass-produce them for the soldiers in Iraq, even though the cost of treating a wounded veteran would end up being much much more? Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
"Given that it is science fiction, just because the actor's costumes are made of polyester and cotton, doesn't mean the character's uniforms are."
"Huh?"
He means that if you want, you're free to imagine that they are wearing high-tech body armor woven into their uniforms. (And that, like real body armor, its utility against a direct hit from a high-power gun/raygun is questionable.)
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
But not dragon skin! That crap protects against very powerful weapons indeed, despite the fact that under very specific conditions it provides less protection than kevlar against certain types of weapons (or so I've heard is the justification for not mass-producing the stuff yet). I just really was irked massively when I heard about how effective this stuff was and how it wasn't immediately deployed, but people are still dying for want of a shirt the government doesn't want to pay for. C'mon, gent's, to quote a certain fat guy, let's see what a bloated, runaway military budget can do!
Posted by OverRon (Member # 2036) on :
I remember seeing that Dragon skin on future weapons. That stuff can take a grenade! Although it'd still probably turn your insides to mush through the concussive forces, if you happened to be laying on one.
As for it not protecting as good as kevlar in some situations, why not just stick some kevlar armour under or over the dragon skin and problem solved?
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Yeah, that dragon skin is pretty good stuff. From what Ive seen, it can protect against a .308 calliber bullet, and is also designed to protect against shrapnel. It would be smart of starfleet to even use a future eqiuvalent of kevlar, or even their equivalent of a flak vest.
As for dragon skin, ( from wikipedia)
"Dragon Skin has been worn by some civilian contractors in Iraq, some elite special forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, some SWAT teams, nine generals in Afghanistan, bodyguards tasked with protecting generals, and U.S. Secret Service personnel".
And for why they werent deployed en masse, it is some political bullshit about certification paperwork. Something about the ceo of the company saying that his vests would match a level III certification before he got the actuall paper work concerning it.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:As for it not protecting as good as kevlar in some situations, why not just stick some kevlar armour under or over the dragon skin and problem solved?
I imagine weight and bulk would be the two main issues there. Armour that slows you down or restricts you movements too much is worse than no armour at all.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Actually, dragonskin is lighter and allows more mobility than kevlar or nylon flak vests.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Yes...but Ron was talking about combining it with Kevlar. Read again.
Posted by OverRon (Member # 2036) on :
What is Kevlar armour anyways? Kevlar fibre and a steel plate? *Goes to check wikipedia*
Ok, so it's Kevlar fibre with metal/ceramic/plastic plates. So some kind of composite of Kevlar and Dragon skin armour, with the Dragon skin scales inside/outside of a bunch of Kevlar layers.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
"Not having seen Starship Troopers, I can't say for sure, but how about the "purple-belly" armor made for Firefly? Surely something that specific must have been new..."
If memory serves, the Alliance troopers on the train in "The Great Train Heist" (I know I messed up the episode title) were wearing Starship Troopers gear.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
"Train Job". I think they showed up in "Bushwacked" too.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I dont think that would be very effective. TO use a common example, starship kitbashing. You would not stick design A's nacells on design B's hull. Dragon skin was designed to improve on the areas that kevlar lacked, while keeping most of it's best atributes. Combining the two might not be a good Idea. you'd end up with protection, but neither design could work to it's best abilities. Maybe you could augment kevlar with a little bit of dragon skin-esque technology, but it might only give the vests a little bit of an improvement. But I believe Dragon skin was designed because updating the current tech was either too hard, expensive, or has too many down sides.
Wait, i just thought of another possibility. The kevlar body armor that police officers wear is thinner, and offers less ballistic protection than the body armor issued to soldiers, but it is aldo a lot lighter and allows more movement. I suppose that untill Dragon skin has it's kinks worked out, soldiers could be issued one of those lighter vests along with Dragon skin. Maybe that would help in those certain circumstances. Even if a bullte gets through the dragon skin and the thinner kevlar under certain conditions, the round will have been slowed down substantially, and would probably cause less damage.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
I'm trying to remember what the conditions I heard about were, where it would let certain bullets through...I *think* (heavy emphasis) that it was something to do with rounds hitting at very oblique angles, which shoved the scales apart and penetrated between them with fair ease, if it was a high-caliber bullet.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
You know, I just realized that basically, dragon skin is a kevlar vest turned inside out and with a lot of enhancements. A normal Kevlar vest has material on the outside, and the ceramic ballistic plates on the inside. Dragon Skin has the plates on the outside and the material on the inside. The deflection problem might be solved by linking the scales at odd and random angles with some sort of connector. That way each scale would have a slightly different range of movement, while not hindering movement of the wearer, and possibly stopping bullets from xpenetrating the links. But, if a high caliber bullet shatters the scales, youre screwed anyway.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
The innovation is both in the arrangement of discs into overlapping scales, which spread the force out very effectively, and in the material of the discs, which I believe is a ceramic-titanium composite of some kind.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Speaking of the deceptive title of this thread, what type of "protection" could starfleet use? I'm sure not all materials used to make condoms would be effective in all environments...if you know what I mean.
MAybe it will build off of current expiremental technology..
Make em outta Utility Fog (Go google utility fog if you don't know what it is...it's highly cool. Theoretical but cool.)
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
From Wikipedia "The foglets' bodies would be made of aluminum oxide rather than combustible diamond to avoid creating a fuel air explosive."
How nice. Now Riker's genitals won't explode.
"Each foglet would have substantial computing power, and would be able to communicate with its neighbors"
Oh great. Now I can have little robots chatting while I am making love.
THat would be a waste of material. Unless they are reusable, in that case, how do you clean genetic material off of Foglets? Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Of course they're reusable; that's the whole point. The air would be brimming with them, and they could form shapes and colors on command. They'd have clamps for attaching to each other and all they'd have to do to be 're-used' is to let go. Anyway, I was kidding about making condoms out of them; you'd have to make even smaller nanomachines to clean those nanomachines, but chemical cleaners could actually count as nanomachines when you think about it.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Maybe they could be used for body armor... Posted by shikaru808 (Member # 2080) on :
Just imagining spraying my genitals with fast-hardening plastic gives me shudders now...
But about the body armor issue, regular Kevlar is ineffective as it is already. The fav weapon of insurgent fighters still remains the AK-47 which fires a 7.62 round. The 7.62 is big and heavy and the SAPI plates in our Kevlar now can only take about 1 or 2 shots before shattering and becoming completely ineffective (and if you've seen those plates, they're rediculously small and can barely cover your important organs). They can however stop 9mm pistol rounds and 5.56 NATO's too.
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pensive's Wetness: [QB speaking of which, goes modern pr0n use CGI? [/QB]
Actually yes, there is CGI pr0n available on the internet in both picture and movie format. Although most of it involves poorly designed characters with impossibly large breasts.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
quote:Originally posted by shikaru808: Just imagining spraying my genitals with fast-hardening plastic gives me shudders now...
But about the body armor issue, regular Kevlar is ineffective as it is already. The fav weapon of insurgent fighters still remains the AK-47 which fires a 7.62 round. The 7.62 is big and heavy and the SAPI plates in our Kevlar now can only take about 1 or 2 shots before shattering and becoming completely ineffective (and if you've seen those plates, they're rediculously small and can barely cover your important organs). They can however stop 9mm pistol rounds and 5.56 NATO's too.
Yes, but it is substantially better from the armor we were using 20 years ago. That could protect against grenade fragments. No bullets. I would rather be hit one or two times and have a chance to get out of the way than have my intestines shredded with the first shot. Kevlar is a balance of protection and mobility. THey could easily make it thicker and add larger shock plates, but it would make the soldier less mobile, and more prone to getting shot in the first place.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
quote:Originally posted by Da_bang80: Actually yes, there is CGI pr0n available on the internet in both picture and movie format. Although most of it involves poorly designed characters with impossibly large breasts.
Just like real porn.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
A subject I would know nothing about.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Lies. You're 16 & you have the internet. And if it's not a lie, why, we'll be more than willing to take you under our collectively corruptive little wings.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I just think it is disgusting and exploitive. There are better ways to spend money. Like taking a girl on a date. If you play your cards right, soon that date might turn into a stable and possibly intimate relationship. With out the heavy eyeliner and silicone breasts.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
The truly impossibly large breasts are actually quite real.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
It is a possibility, but what are the chances that every woman out there has a set of double D's. I would personally prefer B's on any woman I date, but personality and integrity come first, then beauty. But there has to be a balance between the two.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Ahh, idealism. I remember that.
Come see me in 15 years when you've become bitter & jaded like the rest of us.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I am already a grumpy old man in a 15 year old's body. I just have preferences. And hopes. However, I think those standards are why people ( especially most of the females who arent my best friends) think I am gay. And the fact that I say " Eewie", and do an incredibly good impression of Clay Aiken.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
I think it's time for the He-Man Woman-Haters Club to induct this young novitiate into our noble ranks. Come, gentlemen! Let us repair to the drawing room for cigars & brandy, whereupon we shall revel in ribald humor & bawdy tales of peccadilloes past!
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
YOu mean I finally get to be in a club other than Drama Club, and French Club? Yippie!
Posted by shikaru808 (Member # 2080) on :
Dear god....
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sean: It is a possibility, but what are the chances that every woman out there has a set of double D's. I would personally prefer B's on any woman I date, but personality and integrity come first, then beauty. But there has to be a balance between the two.
Not every woman, sure. I personally know at least four. And some that are bigger. Shik's had roommates with plenty bigger... scarily bigger... Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Most of the girls I know are more on the lean athletic side, I think the largest is like a 36-C maybe. Bra size is so complicated, I dont bother trying to understand it. Just like a lot of things about girls...
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Son, let me pass on some very good advice that I received from a kindly Kiwi gent when I was a tad bit younger than you. He gathered a group of us together & said, "Lads, there are two types of women in this world: the kind you fuck, & the kind you marry. And sometimes, if you're very lucky, you find one who's both."
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Maybe I'll be lucky. More than likely, I'll find the kind you screw, and not the kind you marry. That would suck.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Not necessarily.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
If I want to have endless sex for the rest of my life, perhaps, but not if I wanted someone to settle down with and grow old together with.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
Wow. You're 15 and you DON'T want to have sex constantly? Something's wrong with this kid...
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
People say that all the time. There might be that need burried deep within my cerebros, but I have supressed it. It helps me to function more efficiently around girls. And it allows me to think with my brain, and not my head.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Man, more than one Cerebro?
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
It helps to have a backup. Or, he transforms into the head of the robot form of the head of Fortress Maximus.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
A four lobed violin tuner that does not dream of endless sex at age 15? And he wonders.....
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Cerebros is Spanish for brain, if anybody's interested... ;P
Btw, I support your silly hopes, Sean, silly though they may be. I *still* have those silly little hopes. I'm just starting to get used to the fact that these silly hopes might make me alone forever Seriously though, that'd be better than just breaking down and marrying the first girl who'll have me, which it *seems* to me is what half the men I've met did...They sure complain enough.
On the pr0n note, I don't know about exploitative or disgusting, but it's fake. Actors hired to make the bumpty with other actors? How...*yawwwn*...exciting. I suppose I might enjoy it more if I weren't so good at reading people's faces...it's just always too obvious how they think of what they're doing: A job.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
The complaining is the Right of Marriage. For some it takes a couple of tries, I am on try two, and this one seems to be working out rather well, so I think she'll keep me around for a few more years.
One friend of mine married his high school sweetheart, and they are still going strong all these years later.
Another friend is one wife three, plus has had to failed attempts, so try five. I think he got this one right finally.
It takes time, just stick with sleeping with the p0rn on till you find the right one.
I thought Cerebros was Cerberus' brother?
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ritten: A four lobed violin tuner that does not dream of endless sex at age 15? And he wonders.....
I do more than tune them. I actually play them too. But your description is accurate, and should answer your question as to why I dont have many girls hanging on my arms. Most Ive met don't go for the quiet musical type. Violinist fine, but normally once they find out you sing in the school choir they start to suspect attraction to male gender. THere are girls in Chorus though. Most are older than me, but pretty much all of them are considerate and intelligent people who are very easy on the eyes...
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Translation: Fat girls with nice personalities. HA! BURN! just kidding...
Ritten: Eh, nope, not to my knowledge.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
I often wonder what people's varying definitions of "fat" are...
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Actually, they are 15,16,and 17 year olds, most of which play sports, but aren't obsessed with their figures, many of which wear form fitting but conservative clothing, and they just happen to be the sweetest, nicest bunch of girls Ive met. THey actually know I exist and I am friends with a great deal of them. Infact, the great majority of people in the music program are mature beyond their years. It makes for some interesting conversations. It surprises me that they can talk about politics, and then switch to sex in the same conversation. All the girls also have that weird agressive streek that is covered by their niceness. THey could kick my ass with one finger, and they know it. THey wouldn't, but they can. Also surprisingly, there are only one or two gay guys in the whole chorus. Hmm...
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