We know that the Earth-Romulan wars occurred over 100 years prior to 2266, and it may be safe to assume that we may see the wars during Enterprise's stint (7 years/seasons), which would be from about 2151-2158 and beyond, but definately before 2161 (the founding year of the Federation).
quote:Mr. Bin Laden, I have made you my Where's Waldo, and unlike those difficult books, I will find you. -Will Ferrell as George Bush on SNL
[ October 14, 2001: Message edited by: Jack_Crusher ]
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
"The strikes might not be today or tomorrow, but maybe tomorrow."--Will Ferrell again, showing the SNL writers correctly predicted the strikes would start Sunday.
Yes, you raise a good point. As I stated months before Enterprise started, though, the Federation crew won't be able to see the Romluans' faces(and live to tell the tale), but we as viewers might, on their ships or something. See "Balance of Terror."
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Theres still a chance that Enterprise will choose to not abide by the one-season equals one-year rule and have the show end with the founding of the Federation. They might have a long gap between seasons (with picking up with a 'six-months' later gap or somesuch, if they had a story arc that would particularly suit it). Or they could choose, like TNG and VGR to have their last episode take place in the future of what we have seen in the series to give us a sense of closure. I just thought to myself that it is wierd to try and see the end of the series before i have seen the fifth episode. On a personal note, i would hate to see the energetic quality of Enterprise swallowed up by a long interstellar war story arc.
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
It's also important to note that there is no pressing reason why the Romulan Wars had to occur before the founding of the Federation. The war was said to be between Earth and Romulus, but there are countless references in the original series to "Earth ships" and "Earth ambassadors" and such that fall under Federation jurisdiction, notably in "A Taste of Armageddon." Not to mention the obvious fact that the Romulans can have a war with Earth even if Earth is a member of the Federation, particularly if the Federation is a more lossely organized alliance in the 2160s.
My point is simply that if the producers of Enterprise choose not to ever mention the Romulans at all, they're not committing any significant violation of canon. If the Earth-Romulus factor is taken literally, and the fact that the war was 100 years before the original series is taken literally, then technically it is The Next Generation that violated well-established canon by having the Federation founded 5 years too early.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Actually it would be Okuda's fault. He is the one that first printed the 'Romulan wars were before the Federaion was founded' based on the 'Earth' reference, and then by perpetrating that assumption as the truth he theorized that the Federation was founded in 2161 based on his assumption about the Romulan wars, and since there is no one allowed to argue with his theories since they are printed in the chronology and encyclopedia and labeled 'canon', it was soon incorporated into an episode. This one isnt such a great affront to continuity,.. but the Australia thing still kills me
[ October 14, 2001: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Jack: Why don't you stick that quote in your signature, so you don't have to keep editing your posts and inserting it (which is what you appear to be doing)?
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Maybe he likes doing it the hard way and is upset about us "young'uns" cheating ...
("Eh, when I first started posting on Bulletin Boards, not only did you have to re-type your .sig for every post -- there was none of this sissy cuttin' and pastin' back then -- but you also had to type in your login name and password everytime too! And walk 10 miles in the snow uphill to the dayam computer!")
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
But of course we were happy in them days.
Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
Oh my god...I think my friend and I came upon something about the Romulan Wars and the entire Temporal Cold war that Entreprise has. What if the Temporal Cold war was trying to alter the historic outcome of the Romulan/Earth war and prevent the formation of the Federation? And what if the man in the temporal chamber is a Romulan? Do we know the lifespan of the Romulan species?
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Probably about the same as Vulcans, given Pardek's 90 years between Khitomer & Spock's visit..& he was already a semi-distinguished dude at Khitomer...
Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
Thanks...now I have a very good theory who is in the chamber and the possible storyline of the Temporal Cold War arc...
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: Actually it would be Okuda's fault. He is the one that first printed the 'Romulan wars were before the Federaion was founded' based on the 'Earth' reference, and then by perpetrating that assumption as the truth he theorized that the Federation was founded in 2161 based on his assumption about the Romulan wars, and since there is no one allowed to argue with his theories since they are printed in the chronology and encyclopedia and labeled 'canon', it was soon incorporated into an episode.
Okuda's assumptions are that relative dates are exact... but he not only assumed that the Romulan War had to be before the founding of the Federation, he assumed that they were ten years early! Had he followed his own basic assumptions, the War would have been circa 2166, and when the writers of "The Outcast" asked him when the Federation was founded, he would ahve said "2171!" What I wonder is why he tacked on an extra ten years in the first place?
Actually, I have a theory. I think that, initially, Okuda planned on using the long-accepted early 2260s placement for the five-year mission. At the time "The Outcast" was written, his early draft of the Chronology had the Federation founded about one hundred years before the beginning of the mission, and the Romulan War a few years before that. 2161 got in the script, so when Okuda decided to use the previously unheard of "three-hundred years after the airdate" system, it was too late. The Romulan War was still in the ballpark, though, so it stayed put.
There are other hints that this might be the case; for instance, even the revised Chronology has the Battle of Donatu V in 2242 while saying it was 23 years before "The Trouble With Tribbles" in 2267... suggesting that the second season initially fell in 2265 and was later shifted upward. It's interesting that the five-year mission seems to get later and later as time goes on... the Spaceflight Chronology and FASA had it ending in 2210, traditional tech fandom had it ending in 2265, the above conjectural early Chronology had it ending in perhaps 2267, the final Chronology had it ending in 2269, and finally the canon "Q2" (VGR) has it ending in 2270. The latter demonstrates the non-canon status of the Chronology for any doubters... and also lets those of us who like the animated series fit it in there.
But now we're way off-topic for Enterprise, so back to the Romulan War talk!
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by Michael_T: Thanks...now I have a very good theory who is in the chamber and the possible storyline of the Temporal Cold War arc...
Ironic, since the producers don't have any idea yet!
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
I HATE the way Okuda spaced out the five year mission...
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
A couple of things...the airdate+300 system wasn't unheard of at the time -- we'd seen it in "Sarek", where the writers gave Sarek an age of 202, setting "Journey to Babel" in 2266 or so.
I just rewatched "Balance of Terror" (teriffic episode, BTW). Spock mentions that the war happened *over* a hundred years ago; then, Kirk says they haven't seen any Romulan ships in "a century", followed by McCoy's restating of the *over* a hundred years ago reference. It's not clear if the war ended or began 100+ years ago, though we might interpret Kirk's reference as an exact end date.
[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: Phelps ]
Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
Ryan, I think for the first time Berman and Bragga are playing dumb...
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by Phelps: A couple of things...the airdate+300 system wasn't unheard of at the time -- we'd seen it in "Sarek", where the writers gave Sarek an age of 202, setting "Journey to Babel" in 2266 or so.
I meant unheard of prior to The Next Generation. Mike Okuda was quite possibly already the timeline-compiler at the time "Sarek" was written. Even if not, my point was simply that Star Trek was never intended to be exactly three-hundred years after the airdates until it was retconned into that position during the late 1980s.
This also continues my thread of pushing the dates back... "Journey to Babel" was 100 years before 2366 ("Sarek"), or 2266. "The Trouble With Tribbles," set prior to "Journey to Babel," was 105 years before 2373 ("Trials and Tribble-ations"), or 2268. Interestingly, "Crossover" says that "Mirror, Mirror" was less than a century before 2371. Go figure!
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
The trend still cannot be regular. TMP pushed the date of TOS back extremely by setting Voyager 6's mission to "over 300 years ago". TWOK pushed it forward into the early 2200s ("on Earth, 200 years ago, I was a prince"/"SUPERIMPOSED: In the 23rd Century..."/"15 years ago"). TVH then pushed us back to presumably 15 years before the "late 23rd century"/Bounty+500 years, or about 2289-15=2274.
As late as the Phase II bible, the producers had still not decided on the exact date. They knew it was 200-300 years into the future (look at the section describing stardates), and varied their references within this general range.
[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: Phelps ]
Posted by Capt_Spencer (Member # 312) on :
Dude, didn't ya hear the guy in the temporal chamber when he spoke? I think it's the "Vulcan" (Soval?) who also played a cop in "Alien Nation."
Except he's a time-traveling Romulan. heehee...
~ Jason
p.s. - Ryan, you raise some valid points in defense of the show - but can't they show us what we'd like/expect to see, at least ONCE...? =P
[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: Capt_Spencer ]
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
Why don't we ask the producers exactly how they dressed the future guy, and what makeup he was wearing when they filmed that scene?
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Because they probably wouldnt tell us...
The Future Guy was played by James Horan, a veteran of several previous Trek productions (Jo'Bril, Barnaby, some Jem Hadar.. whatever) etc.. It was his voice too
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
We'll know before we know who the FG is, count on it. Someone will talk.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
He also played the first really cool badguy on Highlander ... Grayson.
