My mom, a non-fan with a passing familiarity with Star Trek (thanks to me), watched "Unexpected" with me. About two-thirds through the episode she said, "What's with "chip-on-her-shoulder?" I had to laugh, because, for the most part, I agree. Even given her non-fan status, she knows that Vulcans are supposed to be a logical, unemotional people. She though that T'Pol is just "PO'd." Indeed, could she be the most emotional Vulcan yet? Spock and Tuvok normally related a calm, collected, cool, demeanor that was sometimes bemused or ever-so-slightly annoyed. T'Pol strikes me as seething with anger and contempt. Well, maybe seethings is too strong a word; she does not really strike me at all (for those who say she is just another Seven Of Nine: at least Jeri Ryan can act).
Posted by Grokca (Member # 722) on :
perhaps they have a seven year period to go with the mating cycle. Paul
Posted by Raw Cadet (Member # 725) on :
One wonders how they will deal with T'Pol's sexuality, when it is "her time." It could range from a classy commentary on sexual ethics and mores to a tasteless skin-flick.
Posted by Kalax (Member # 723) on :
I'm very glad someone has brought this point up. Not only does T'Pol's attitude border on some emotion, but if memory serves me right, the Ammbasadore, I'm guessing he was, in the Pilot Episode did seem to get rather upset with SF and there handling of the Klingon.
[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: Kalax ]
Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :
Doesn't the pon farr only happen to vulcan males?
Posted by Raw Cadet (Member # 725) on :
If I recall correctly, we have only seen Vulcan males going through pon farr. However, I believe that it has been expressly stated that pon farr is a process Vulcan adults go through, and adults probably includes females.
Posted by Mr. Christopher (Member # 71) on :
I seem to remember reading somewhere that Vulcan females either have a shorter pon farr cycle or a longer pon farr cycle...
Posted by Raw Cadet (Member # 725) on :
To bring this somewhat back on topic, I am not sure if "Enterprise" can convey T'Pol going through pon farr. Our previous experience with the condition shows agitated, angry Vulcans; T'Pol already is.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Well, when it was mentioned in ST3, Saavik said that Vulcan males must go through pon farr "every seventh year of their adult lives". However, if it's the result of their pent-up emotions, it wouldn't make sense for the females not to have the same deal. In fact, Peter David makes great plot use of this in the "New Frontier" series. So the logical (HA!) conclusion is that one of the qualifiers that Saavik used doesn't apply to females as it does to males. So it could be a different time cycle: every nine years, or every three, or whatever. Or perhaps it doesn't have anything to do with adult years with the females, though the idea of a six year old having to deal with pon farr is a bit much for me. My guess is that the females don't have to deal with it every seven years of their adult life like the males do because they eventually (around, say, 160) hit menopause. Just a guess.
Posted by Raw Cadet (Member # 725) on :
My point is not to dismiss a character after four episodes; that would be unfair. After all, if one judged a "The Next Generation" character in episode four, say, Wesley Crusher . . . oh. I just do not hold out much hope for Jolene Blalock (spelling?) to pull off anything more than a stereotypical "I am inspired by that Vulcan engineer from 'Voyager' and that Vulcan Captain from 'Deep Space Nine'" Vulcan.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I would think only one gender could have a set mating cycle. Otherwise, there would be no marriage in their society. In "Amok Time", what if Spock had headed back to Vulcan, only to have his fiancée say "Oh, sorry, I don't hit my next pon farr for six months. Could you just hold that thought...?"?
Also, I doubt it has anything to do w/ pent-up emotions, really? Has that ever been explicitly stated? Because, if that were true, I can't imagine that it would come out to seven years for everyone. If someone was better or worse at suppressing their emotions, or if someone was more or less emotional by nature, their cycle would be different. It also wouldn't explain why they die if they don't get "satisfaction". I'm thinking it's just a biological thing for all Vulcans, regardless of whether or not they follow Surak-ism...
Posted by Raw Cadet (Member # 725) on :
Are these many suggestions that only males go through pon farr (besides being unrelated to the original topic) a prelude to a massive "they violated continuity" rant when T'Pol goes through it?
Posted by Alshrim (Member # 258) on :
I thought Pon Farr was for males only. I went to my trusty Okudapedia - and it is not specified there either - only that Vulcan's in GENERAL go thru the imbalance of the brain.
Interesting....
On topic this time.:
I have said this before... In one hundred years, we, as humans, have gone from sword-wielding, war shouting barbarians bent on taking over everyone's territory, to a civilized people that TRY (That's the operative word) to avoid war. My point is .. we've changed a lot in 100 years.. things and our environment have changed us.
To me, it makes sense that the vulcans are not as refined and as enlightened as their post-masters like Spock, Sarek, Saavik, Tuvok .. etc.. etc..
They have to leave room for evolution. And at this stage of Vulcan history - they are not as enlightened as they think they should be; they know it .. and that's the chip on their shoulder.
I think too, that T'Pol is beginning to realize, that being a little reckless sometimes, with a little retraint at others, is going to advance the humies far more than the vulcans because of their willingness to go outside the rules a little. This would piss them off; I have no doubt. And because the vulcan are not as evolved/enlightened as the vulcans we are used to, it is obvious to us that they have a few CHIPS on their proverbial shoulders.
*In my best Forrest Gump Voice* And that's all I have to say about that!
[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Alshrim ]
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
But Vulcans live longer than humans, and 100 years is not a very long time for a Vulcan.
Now that I think of it, T'Pol *is* the first major Vulcan female we've seen, right? Maybe Vulcan females tend to be less logical, like on Earth...
Posted by Grokca (Member # 722) on :
Harry I thought I open a can of worms but you have a lot more guts than I do. Paul
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
[i]In "Amok Time", what if Spock had headed back to Vulcan, only to have his fianc�e say "Oh, sorry, I don't hit my next pon farr for six months. Could you just hold that thought...?"?]/i]
That's where the telepathic bonding came into play.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Damn it, Omega beat me to it.
I was going to suggest that at marriage, the pon farr cycles of the men and women could be synched together since they are telepathically linked. Since we hear over and over again that males go through pon farr every seven years, I'd say that it's possible for the women to adjust their cycle times (not to mention that it'd make them a bit more alien to us).
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I'd have no problem with discovering that Vulcan females also have a pon farr-esque mating cycle. After all, Belanna went through pon farr after Vorik got her all crazy in "Blood Fever". What would bother me, though, is if a bunch of information was revealed about it. Doctors in the TOS era and even in the TNG era know virtually nothing about pon farr. To have it be an issue this early on wouldn't be good.
If it's something that is kept strictly between T'Pol, Archer and Phlox...maybe.
$$$$$
I was impressed with how they used the neck pinch in "Strange New World". They snuck it in there, but no one realized what happened. That was good.
[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Aban Rune ]
Posted by Alshrim (Member # 258) on :
Eeesh .. i don't wanna get into a battle of sexes here... heheheh.
I think the one thing that we should learn from the differences between Spock and T'Pol is that:
Spock had a greater Tolerance for Human 'Weaknesses'. T'Pol has yet to find that tolerance.
And yes... Vulcans live longer... but they evolve at the same rate, I think.
Even Tuvok was a passionate Vulcan ...
Let's look at it this way.
Take Two Rooms. In one room, you have 20 Vulcans. In the other, you have 10 Vulcans and 10 Humans. Leave them all in that room for 1 week.
After that week, which vulcans do you think are going to be more tolerant. Which vulcans do you think will have the formula to adjust their logic to deal with the emotions of a human?
Up until now, in the Enterprise Time-Line, Vulcan have, shall we say, less experience with dealing with Human Behavior then their Post-Masters. So in a sense, Spock WOULD seem more logical and less frustrated or 'displeased' with living among them.
T'Pol does not have the benefit of that experience .. and she's learning as she goes..
I'm not sure if I've explained my point very clearly - someone help me out here..
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Spoilers for "Unexpected" and "Broken Bow" $$$
I'd be willing to bet that T'Pol's "condition" would be kept confidential. After all, they did keep Tucker's "condition" a secret until the Klingons forced their hand. When Spock entered pon farr in "Amok Time," I don't think the rest of the crew was ever told the truth about the sidetrip to Vulcan.
On the other hand, The Original Series seemed to imply that Spock was one of the few Vulcans in Starfleet. It's possible that McCoy had little treating or dealing with Vulcans at that point in his career. It's also possible that McCoy may have exhibited the same bitterness towards Vulcans that the navigator in "Corbomite Manuever" and the doctor in "Galileo Seven" did. It was only after working with Spock and warming up to him that he decided to brush up on Vulcan physiology. This could be why McCoy didn't know enough to help Spock in "Amok Time" but did to save Sarek in "Journey to Babel."
I see now that Alshrim slipped in a post as I was posting. Shame on you! Actually, what you say makes sense. Vulcans, and T'Pol in particular, seems to have little experience in dealing with humans. On Earth, she admitted to never leaving the Vulcan Compound. She also admitted that wanted nothing more than to leave Enterprise at the end of "Broken Bow"s mission. Now, she's having to deal with a species she already sees as human but has to work and live alongside the irrational, illogic, and emotional humans. Her tolerance level is going to be fairly low at this point.
[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Siegfried ]
Posted by Alshrim (Member # 258) on :
Agreed !!!
Sorry for raining on the parade, Siegfried.
Posted by Grokca (Member # 722) on :
It would also seem logical that the Vulcans are a very private race and would not readily discuss their conditions unless there was a logical need to do so. And even then once in Pon Far their logic seems to fail them and they become irrational, then they also would not readily discuss their condition. At this early stage it seem that neither race fully trusts the other so it would make discussion of the condition even more unlikely.
Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
If T'Pol does have pon farr during this first season of Enterprise, I have a feeling it will be during sweeps...
And I do agree on the fact that since the TNG-era still had no real info on pon farr that Enterprise should know even less.
Posted by Raw Cadet (Member # 725) on :
I think I understand what you are saying, Alshrim, but do you hold out any hope for the actress playing T'Pol to convey a quiet, gradual, subtle evolution? As I said before, I just cannot help feel that she is trying to play the type of Vulcan we all know and love, but her acting ability only allows her to mimic that Vulcan engineer on "Voyager," and that Vulcan Captain on "Deep Space Nine."
Posted by Alshrim (Member # 258) on :
Believe it or not, I believe she will. I've been, personally, impressed with the way she's been doing things. I think she's doing exactly what she's being told to do.
Taking what I've said above for granted .. if that is what is happening, then she's playing the part exactly the way she should.
Again - It's just my opinion ... I respectfully reserve the right to be wrong.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I too feel almost positive that she'll lighten up a bit after a while. You can't keep writing someone as a raving bitch and expect fans to continue to care about the character. Even Tuvok occastional had hi beakthroughs in humanity.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
quote:On the other hand, The Original Series seemed to imply that Spock was one of the few Vulcans in Starfleet. It's possible that McCoy had little treating or dealing with Vulcans at that point in his career.
Hadn't doctor M'Benga worked in a Vulcan infirmary?
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
There is reference to Doctor M'Benga working in a Vulcan infirmary, but I've always taken that to mean that he was stationed planetside on Vulcan or a Vulcan colony. I'm going to have to rewatch the episodes to make certain.
As far as Jolene Blalock is concerned, I've been rather impressed with her and her characterization of T'Pol. I was hesitant at first because I felt that having a model act on a science-fiction show would be a disaster. But really, she's been doing a fairly good job. I think the writers and the directors play up the character's "bitchiness" a bit much, but I think it's being kept within reasonable limits (most of the time at least).
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
There are definetely problems in the writing and acting. Where the percentages go, however, I cannot say.
The Vulcans have held the Surak philosophy for thousands of years by ENT/TOS/TNG. In two thousand years (not sure about the number), an entire race following a philosophy of uberlogic would find a pretty stable identity as a race.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
I think the Vulcan's racial identity is fairly stable. They've always seem to think of themselves as superior to humans; when can point to Spock and his continual commentary on the weakness of human emotions. A couple prime examples are his speech on the Genesis Project from The Wrath of Khan and remarks about V'Ger inheriting human emotions and having to now deal with them. The Original Series episodes frequently ended with a jab at humanity. Of course, I look at these particular examples as light-hearted bantering among friends.
The variation we've seen in attitude of the Vulcans towards humans I chock up to personality differences and exposure. Tuvok, Sarek, and Spock had extensive histories dealing with humans and that reflected quite well. We don't see a constant begrudging of humans from these three like we do with T'Pol. Ambassador Soval in "Broken Bow" seemed more at-ease and cordial with the Starfleet brass than his two aides. He supposedly had been on Earth for a fairly long time.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
...I'm casually wondering if anyone has mentioned that Pon Farr cannot be an open issue on Enterprise. Just like the identity of Romulans or the Vulcan Neck Pinch [as well as the Death Grip ]. The way they handled the VNP was alright, easy enough to not be known about by the rest of the crew. What bothers me is that the Pon Farr situation would not be as easily to handle unless there were other Vulcans around at the time, of if they were even near Vulcan.
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by J: ...I'm casually wondering if anyone has mentioned that Pon Farr cannot be an open issue on Enterprise.
I don't think that anyone's mentioned it, but you're right. In "Amok Time" (TOS), pon farr was a big Vulcan secret that not even medical officers were informed of.
quote:Originally posted by J: Just like the identity of Romulans or the Vulcan Neck Pinch [as well as the Death Grip ]. The way they handled the VNP was alright, easy enough to not be known about by the rest of the crew.
Nothing in the original series suggested that the neck pinch was unknown at the time, so that wasn't a problem to begin with.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Although the loophole is that, if it happens, T'Pol will trust the secret of pon farr to Archer and PHlox and they wont tell anyone out of respect for her, and no one will know about it 112 years later. Eeeeeeaaaaaassy fix.
And i think the neck pinch wasnt a secret.. if anyone asked about it the first time Spock did it, its because they were just unfamiliar with Vulcan capabilities as a person, not as a race (just because one human wasnt aware of a Vulcan capability doesnt mean they all arent, just that one)
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
No, nobody's mentioned it...well, except for me. No one's mentioned the neck pinch thing either...except for me...
Posted by Alshrim (Member # 258) on :
$$ Terra Nova $poiler$
HEY... Was it just me .. or did T'Pol lightened up in the the last ep!?
Posted by Raw Cadet (Member # 725) on :
No, Alshrim, it was not just you; she was very good last night. Which makes me wonder: are they showing the episodes in the order they were filmed? Last week she was the very early, "chip-on-her-shoulder" T'Pol; this week it looks like she has been gradually improving. Not only that, but it was said that they had only been out a month in "Unexpected," correct? Now, that is not neccessarily a violation of anything, but if the episodes are being shown out of filmed order, perhaps "Unexpected" was filmed earlier.
Eeesh .. i don't wanna get into a battle of sexes here... heheheh.