Just random theorization. Let's not even get into the location of Qo'noS.
Of course, if Andor is not Epsilon Indi, it makes a lot more sense of the TOS line that mentions Epsilon Indi's inhabitants w/o mentioning the Andorians.
But, then, there's also no canonical evidence that Vulcan is at 40-Eridani. The best we've gotten is the 40-Eridani-A shipyard on a dedication plaque.
Ryan makes a good point. Perhaps, then, it's LP 656-38. Anyone got any good info about that particular star?
quote:
Originally posted by Omega:
Epsilon INDI? Um... no. Some maps have marked Epsilon Eridani, but Roddenberry and astronomers agreed that it was too young to have life-supporting planets. The 40-Eridani trinary is far more likely.
I agree. Luckily, the dwarf stars wouldn't be more than bright points in the sky, so it's acceptable to have missed them in all of the Vulcan scenes we've seen.
Epsilon Indi is supposed to be Andoria's star, not Vulcan's. I don't know enough about it to comment on it's appropriateness. The problem with naming aliens after well-known (read: bright) stars is that they are almost invariably unsuitable for life by virtue of being too young. Unless, of course, we're wrong in our age calculations.
quote:
Main-sequence M stars are poor choices for inhabited planets. They're
cooler, dimmer, and smaller than Sol, which means planets have to be
much close to be in the habitable zone... close enough that they'd
probably be tidally locked (like the Moon; one side permenantly facing
the star). That makes for very high winds, since the temperature
difference between always-day and always-night will be extreme.
An additional problem is that visible light isn't the only product of stars; you have to take into account its output across the entire electromagnetic spectrum. Depending on the spectral class, you could be baked by infrared or fried by UV even if the visible light level is tolerable.
As for the relative placement between stars, you might want to check out this site:
It's a data site for space based RPG, but the person has done a map, based on the sun, of the stars going out to about 25 l.y. The view is from above, with the galactic center to the top. Gives you a good idea of the directional relationships between the stars. 40 Eridani and Epsilon Indi, BTW, are nowhere near each other.
BTW, here's a thought. the 40 Eridani system (a trinary) is some 16 light years from Earth. Remember Scotty's line at the end of TMP: "We can have you back on Vulcan in four days, Mr. Spock?"
They would have had to put the pedal to the metal for that; that works out to wf 11.35 old scale, or 8.9 TNG scale. If they could do that do get home, why were they piddling around at warp 7 to get to V'Ger?
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: Woodside Kid ]
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: Malnurtured Snay ]
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: Spike ]
quote:
No, I meant that there could be differences between our and the ST milky way.
Well, I'm sure our *real* galaxy also isn't populated with Klingons, Ferengi, Cardassians, Vulcans, Romulans, and the Borg, so ...
(If a sector is 20 LY/3, then Vulcan could still be in the same sector as Earth, and be 16 LY away or on the egde of a neighboring sector).
[I've just watched 'Amok Time' and it actually says Vulcan is in sector 3. Depending on how the sector system works, that could border sector 1 and be 16 LY away just like the '40 Eridani' theory says]
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
Which brings up an interesting side issue -- if we're to treat "Enterprise" as science fiction, then we must assume that the Eugenics Wars took place later than 1992 in its timeline -- otherwise, "Enterprise" stops being an extrapolation and becomes a fantasy. That's probably why Arthur C. Clarke kept changing his 2001 universe in the subsequent books, to keep it science fiction. Hmm...maybe Braga actually knows what he's doing...
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: Phelps ]
Although i question people who watch a TV show and need their own existence explained to them in the context of the show, rather than people who are more secure and watch the show and try to justify the show in relation to their own existence.
for example, there is a lot of science fiction built around different outcomes of world war II..
I beleive that the Eugenics wars happened in 1992 in the ST universe and i dont live in the ST universe, so they didnt happen here.
its not that difficult a concept to grasp
the thrust of enterprise should be that it could originate in our timeline or the ST timeline.. basically, whether or not the eugenics wars happened and evolved to the ENT universe or our universe evolved into the ENT universe, they would both be the same.
"The Germans won. Don't ask me how, or why. Maybe some alien force influenced it. Maybe some time travellers entered the picture. In any case, this is what happened afterwards..."
If things happen for no reason, not even one implied in the story, then it's fantasy.
TOS would still be science fiction because in its time, it could not know what would happen in 1992 (especially given the huge technological progress of its era). However, a show that still says they happened in 1992 just to maintain consistency is a bit more fantasy.
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: Phelps ]
The Star Trek Universe is not the real one. It is a fictional one where anything is subject to change at the will of the writers of the shows. NOTHING about it has to be the same as ours, but much of it does in order for us to be able to relate to it. Science fiction is merely fiction with some element of science contained within it. It does not necessarily have to be an extrapolation as you say, although that sort of prophetic writing is the most common and popular form of sci-fi. For the most part Trek is this form of sci-fi, though it can and has (as in the case of the Eugenics Wars, et al) diverged from real-life.
-MMoM 
Gene Roddenberry said that Vulcan was 40 Eridani.
(for a more in-depth discussion of this, go here) It is 16.4 light years from the Sun.
Andoria is "a close neighbor" of Vulcan.
There are only two stars within seven light years of 40 Eridani: BD-3�1123 and Epsilon Eridani.
BD-3�1123 is a pathetic Spectral Class M star, with a practically zero chance of habitable planets.
Epsilon Eridani is a K, which while dim, could possibly have a habitable planet.
So Epsilon Eridani could be Andoria, except this doesn't explain where the Vulcan monastary is located.
As another data point, 40 Eridani is 19.44 light years from Epsilon Indi (that is, a little farther than the 40 Eridani-Sun distance)
Point in the Second: Trek diverged from our universe even in the present when (in TrekVerse) a giant nuclear weapons rocket (looking exactly like a Saturn IB) almost wiped out mankind thanks to our friendly neighborhood time traveling Starfleet officers. So has Star Trek been fantasy ever since "Assignment: Earth"?
Point in the Third: If these two major species are within twenty light years of each other, shouldn't we have detected them by now by the waste heat produced by their civilization? We've should've seen episodes of "I Love T'Lucy" and "The Ed Sullivok Show" by now. A civilization that's had warp drive for approximately 1,500 years by 2001 AD should've produced some evidence of their existence to us right off the bat. And don't give me any of that, "maybe they covered it up" bullshit. You try to cover up the waste heat produced by an entire interplanetary society. It ain't easy.
[Edited for grammer and one hell of a run-on sentence]
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: OnToMars ]
Things have happened in the 'history' of trek that haven't and won't happen in ours.
quote:
Originally posted by OnToMars:
Point in the First: Isn't all fiction speculative?Point in the Second: Trek diverged from our universe even in the present when (in TrekVerse) a giant nuclear weapons rocket (looking exactly like a Saturn IB) almost wiped out mankind thanks to our friendly neighborhood time traveling Starfleet officers. So has Star Trek been fantasy ever since "Assignment: Earth"?
Point in the Third: If these two major species are within twenty light years of each other, shouldn't we have detected them by now by the waste heat produced by their civilization? We've should've seen episodes of "I Love T'Lucy" and "The Ed Sullivok Show" by now. A civilization that's had warp drive for approximately 1,500 years by 2001 AD should've produced some evidence of their existence to us right off the bat. And don't give me any of that, "maybe they covered it up" bullshit. You try to cover up the waste heat produced by an entire interplanetary society. It ain't easy.
[2] There is no correlation between divergent history and a re-arrangement of the structure of the galaxy. In any event, it is a rather drastic solution to the problem. Why not merely postulate that Gene was mistaken, and Vulcan wasn't located at 40 Eridani after all?
Since we haven't seen orbiting nuclear platforms nor any hit of the Eugenic wars, Star Trek has entered the genre of "alternate history science fiction". But it does not make it "fantasy".
[3] Oh, my, where shall I start?
I LOVE LUCY is waste radio waves, not waste heat. SETI studies have shown that TV broadcasts are too faint to be detected by neighboring stars. The best one can hope for is the focused radio noise of the DEW line radars set up to detect Soviet nuclear missile attacks. Waste heat cannot be detected over interstellar distances unless one is dealing with a Dyson sphere or something of that magnitude. It has not been shown that Vulcan has had warp drive for 2000 years, the Romulans could have been kicked out of Vulcan on generation slower than light vessels. If the Vulcans had invented warp drive technology 2000 years ago, by now they would have ships that would make V'Ger look like a rubber raft. 
And your points one and three are in contradiction. Either one says it is just all fantasy or one tries a scientific justification. But you cannot have it both ways.
quote:
Originally posted by Nyrath:
Why not merely postulate that Gene was mistaken, and Vulcan wasn't located at 40 Eridani after all?
Unfortunately, I'm thinking that this is increasingly more likely. If Enterprise is just now reaching P'Jem after nine weeks, then either that spy equipment is very powerful or the Vulcan/Andoria region is relatively close to P'Jem and farther from Earth.
Combined with Terra Nova being the only inhabitable planet within 20 light years of Earth, it starts to fit a little better. If that comment was absolutely literal, then none of the "traditional" alien homeworlds can be correct. The bad part is we have no idea where Vulcan is, if it isn't at 40 Eri. The good part is that if we're farther out, we can essentially invent any star we need, wherever we need it, and claim it hasn't been discovered yet.
Most of the time it just depends on when you're reading it, do you feel that there's some scientific element? It's the same with say, 'historical fiction.' How much history has to be in it to be called that? Is any story set during a historical time period 'historical fiction'?
See, it's, as I said, very subjective.
quote:
Originally posted by Sol System:
I find the distinction made here between science fiction and fantasy very unsatisfactory.
In the History of Science Fiction course I took last semester, they repeatedly emphasized that the defintions are so loose that very few people can agree. Some say that there isn't a difference, others say it is a difference in "feel" more than anything else. Some say that science fiction has to be about a scientific idea, others say it has to only be in a scientific context. The one we went with was that science fiction is any story in which the story cannot exist without elements of either speculative science or unrealized applications of real science. By that definition, a show like CSI isn't science fiction, though it relies heavily on science, because it only uses "real" science. A hard scifi story might use only real science, but it is always applied in ways it is not currently applied. A soft scifi story (like Star Trek) might invent thigns which we currently believe to be impossible, but in the pretense that it is merely an elaboration of current science. Fantasy, on the other hand, assumes that science is fundamentally wrong in that the laws of physics may not apply, as with magic. Star Trek already borders closely with fantasy by this standard, with omnipotent noncorporeal beings, the Vulcan katra, and so on.
Personally, I don't really care what you call it. Jurassic Park is considered mainstream, but it's certainly also science fiction. Star Trek is considered science fiction, but most of its stories could be "transplanted" into fantasy or even historical settings. I say, "screw it." If a story is good, I'll read/watch it regardless of what it's classified as.
To put it simply, it was probably the only habitable uninhabited system where the colonists could just plop down and start living at any time.
quote:
[1] Depends on the definition and the context of the word speculative. But science fiction with no science in it is an oxymoron. Without the science to provide structure, it reverts to fantasy.
[2] There is no correlation between divergent history and a re-arrangement of the structure of the galaxy. In any event, it is a rather drastic solution to the problem. Why not merely postulate that Gene was mistaken, and Vulcan wasn't located at 40 Eridani after all?Since we haven't seen orbiting nuclear platforms nor any hit of the Eugenic wars, Star Trek has entered the genre of "alternate history science fiction". But it does not make it "fantasy".
[3] Oh, my, where shall I start?
I LOVE LUCY is waste radio waves, not waste heat. SETI studies have shown that TV broadcasts are too faint to be detected by neighboring stars. The best one can hope for is the focused radio noise of the DEW line radars set up to detect Soviet nuclear missile attacks. Waste heat cannot be detected over interstellar distances unless one is dealing with a Dyson sphere or something of that magnitude. It has not been shown that Vulcan has had warp drive for 2000 years, the Romulans could have been kicked out of Vulcan on generation slower than light vessels. If the Vulcans had invented warp drive technology 2000 years ago, by now they would have ships that would make V'Ger look like a rubber raft.And your points one and three are in contradiction. Either one says it is just all fantasy or one tries a scientific justification. But you cannot have it both ways.
I don't see how my first and third points are contradictory.
With my second point, I was merely pointing out that synching universes is not merely a product of real life catching up to Trek predictions. They did something at the time the episode was produced that was divergent from the 'real' universe. By someone's previously stated definition, that would make it fantasy, which it most definitely is not. Personally, I'm with Ryan (I think it as Ryan, can't be bothered to double check) in saying 'Fuck it' and judging it on its merits as an episode and not its catagory.
My third point is still rather scientifically accurate. By 'waste heat', I was using the term as it applies from the Second Law of Thermodynamics and I will admit it was a rather general use of the term. But I used it specifically for generality as I was referring to any waste energy produced by a civilization. Perhaps I should've used 'waste energy' at the time, but it didn't occur to me until just now. Anyway, my point stands that if they were so close, if anybody were so close, we would've heard 'em by now.
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: OnToMars ]
In contrast, we know that the tech people, who are in the habit of giving us all these cool "no difference" factoids in the form of obscure computer screen readouts or dedication plaques or whatnot, do have an interest in preserving "Trek lore". Okuda tries to work the cubed warp-speed factor into "Enterprise" even though it's a losing battle, since he thinks it's part of the original Trek mythos. I'm sure he's making a similar attempt with the 40 Eri thing, and he's more likely to succeed there since no plot demands are hampering that effort.
As for Andor's identity, I can see pros and cons in the Epsilon Indi idea. The systems *are* rather proximate, even if there are other systems (like Sol!) in between. Contact between them would be trivially easy with starships of NX-01's caliber, and supposedly Vulcans have had ships like that for some time already. And both systems have K-class stars that thus might be of strategic interest to the other party (a home away from home), thereby promoting contact.
Then again, Epsilon Indi was never associated with Andorians in any episode, even though the star was mentioned. In fact, the Triacus folks (Gorgan's ancestors) were said to have operated there.
But the omissions of the earlier shows could easily be rectified in ENT. One could even innocuously have an Andorian refer to the Triacus pirates that so burdened and influenced his society's distant past, or something.
Timo Saloniemi
Humans havent been 'out there' too much. Maybe us being between Vulcan and Andor isnt such a big deal, just because up until 9 weeks previous we were not a serious interstallar civilization thet would notice them or be noticed by them.
Possibly, since we werent exploring the sector aggressively, we were only carrying on trade and relations with he few planets the Vulcans told us to (Go to Draylax they say, and we skip over the ones they say 'oh, you dont need to go to Andor'). Remember we dont even have detailed maps of the species of our own sector at this point, the Vulcans do though.
Terra Nova might have been the only uninhabited Earth like planet. Or maybe it wasnt, but it was the only one the Vulcans chose to inform us about (other inhabitable worlds could have existed, but belonged to other governments the Vulcans didnt want us to offend by taking their future colony, or setting up shop too close for them to be comfortable)
The Vulcan Monastery could have been close to Andor on the other side of Terra Thats why they didnt just monitor it from Vulcan itself.. remember the Vulcans and the Andorians have the ability to quickly cross these distances that we did not until recently. I think that saying Andor and Vulcan are 'close to each other' could refer to a difference of a lot more light years than the non-warp-5 capable humans would consider 'close'
quote:
Originally posted by Timo:
In contrast, we know that the tech people, who are in the habit of giving us all these cool "no difference" factoids in the form of obscure computer screen readouts or dedication plaques or whatnot, do have an interest in preserving "Trek lore". Okuda tries to work the cubed warp-speed factor into "Enterprise" even though it's a losing battle, since he thinks it's part of the original Trek mythos. I'm sure he's making a similar attempt with the 40 Eri thing, and he's more likely to succeed there since no plot demands are hampering that effort.
I'm not sure. I would assume Okuda was responsible for the "40 Eridani Fleet Yards" plaque... I'd have to think that were they at Vulcan they would be called the "Vulcan Fleet Yards." Personally, I'd rather Vulcan not be at 40 Eridani, because that gives us more freedom to custom-build the system.
quote:
Originally posted by OnToMars:
I don't see how my first and third points are contradictory.My third point is still rather scientifically accurate. By 'waste heat', I was using the term as it applies from the Second Law of Thermodynamics <
> Anyway, my point stands that if they were so close, if anybody were so close, we would've heard 'em by now.
Your third point says: All this stellar distance information is pointless because it yields results that are scientifically contradictory.
My point is that you can use one argument or the other, but not both. The two arguments contradict each other. The third point cannot yield scientifically contradictory results because speculative fiction is pointless, that is, it has no science to yield scientific results.
Well, of course you ment "waste heat" in reference to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. How could you not?
However I disagree on it being scientifically accurate. My point still stands: unless the civilization has evolved to a Type Two, it isn't going to be detectable at any range at all. (You do know what a Type two is, don't you?)
Have you read this?
quote:
Originally posted by Nyrath the nearly wise:
Your first point says: All this stellar distance information is pointless because Enterprise is fiction and all fiction is speculative.Your third point says: All this stellar distance information is pointless because it yields results that are scientifically contradictory.
My point is that you can use one argument or the other, but not both. The two arguments contradict each other. The third point cannot yield scientifically contradictory results because speculative fiction is pointless, that is, it has no science to yield scientific results.
Well, of course you ment "waste heat" in reference to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. How could you not?
However I disagree on it being scientifically accurate. My point still stands: unless the civilization has evolved to a Type Two, it isn't going to be detectable at any range at all. (You do know what a Type two is, don't you?)
Have you read this?
My first point was that the term 'speculative fiction' was rather redundant. Nothing more.
And yes I know what a Type Two Civilization is. No technological society could be maintaining a closed loop system, so the Second Law of Thermodynamics states. Whether, waste heat, greenhouse gases, radio or television waves, there would be some evidence of 'bleed-off' which would be detectable. We've been listenting to the sky for thirty some odd years now (not sure about the number, but the point is made). If Vulcan is seven some light years away and has been technological enough to produce an interstellar traveling offshoot race, then there would've been some evidence of their existence.
Frankly, I've forgotten my original point from way back when, as its almost 3 in the morning and my BAC is not zero, but if Vulcans were there, we would know it - for whatever that's worth.
And please don't insult me by implication.
quote:
Originally posted by OnToMars:
My first point was that the term 'speculative fiction' was rather redundant. Nothing more.And yes I know what a Type Two Civilization is. -- snip --
And please don't insult me by implication.
On the second, yes, I know what the Second Law of Thermodynamics is, and I too would like an avoidance of insult by implication.
Just returning the favor...
Example:
Here's a list of all stars that are between 18 and 22 light-years from Sol. These would be candidates for the location of Terra Nova.
http://www.stellar-database.com/Scripts/find_neighbors.exe?ID=100&minLY=18&ly=22
There are three G-type stars in this region - 82 Eridani, Delta Pavonis, and Xi B�otis.
Moving on, there are eight stars that are within 10 light-years of 40 Eridani... but 7 of them are Type M or below. The eight is Epsilon Eridani, which is closer to Earth and therefore unlikely to be the location of Andor.
http://www.stellar-database.com/Scripts/find_neighbors.exe?ID=175600&ly=10
Hope you guys find this helpful.
quote:
On the second, yes, I know what the Second Law of Thermodynamics is, and I too would like an avoidance of insult by implication.
I don't believe I implied that you didn't know what the Second Law of Thermodynamics was. Actually, I thought it was rather obvious from your previous post that you know quite well what it is.
quote:
Well, of course you ment "waste heat" in reference to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. How could you not?
How could I imply that you didn't know what it was with a quote like that?
[ November 03, 2001: Message edited by: OnToMars ]
quote:
Is this a good time to say that T'pol said Andoria (NOT Andor) is the planet of the Andorians?
Actually, it's been referred to as both on DS9. So either is correct. For some reason, the majority of fans seem to prefer "Andor."
quote:
Originally posted by OnToMars:
[QB]How could I imply that you didn't know what it was with a quote like that?/QB]
You said
quote:
By 'waste heat', I was using the term as it applies from the Second Law of Thermodynamics
Epsilon Indi is mention in ST:TOS "And the Childen Shall Lead" as the location of the people who killed the invading warriors of Triacus.
It does seem a bit odd that they are refered to as "The inhabitants of Epsilon Indi" rather than "The Andorians".
I don't know how credible the location is. Or maybe I do!
quote:
Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:
Actually, it's been referred to as both on DS9. So either is correct. For some reason, the majority of fans seem to prefer "Andor."
Probably because it was called Andor in both fan and licensed circles for a good thirty years before anybody ever even thought of the word "Andoria."
Earth, Terra, Sol III, etc...
Quo'nos, Kling, Klingon, the Klingon Homworld, etc...
Vulcan, Vulcanis, etc...
Andor, Andoria, etc...
Kling was never given a specific meaning ... it could be like the "Heroes of Bastogne" or something similar. Kling could be the site of a famous battle in ancient Klingon history ...
[ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: OnToMars ]
Thats how Elmer Fudd would say it
"I think Kling is a good name for the Klingons' home planet."
Indeed. Please Mim, if you have any children, let your wife pick the names.
Lets review what we've learned today, kids:
But the Mim kid thinks that wouldnt make any sense?
the Klingon letter 'tlh' is, at the beginning of a word, most easily pronounced 'KL' by English and Standard speakers (depending on where the accent of the word is, 'tlh' when it occurs at the middle or end of a word can also be pronounced 'th' or 'x'
'-ngan' is a Klingon suffix which is equivalent to adding '-ian' to English words..
terangan is a Human ('tera' meaning Earth)
romuluSngan is a Romulan
etc..
The most correct pronunciation of the word 'Klingon' hasnt occured since their first appearance, 'Errand of Mercy' where it sounded more like 'Klingan'.. later appearances it has very often been pronounced Kling-ON with more of an accent on the later syllable (saying it with a Terran accent)
[ November 06, 2001: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
Even though TNG Klingons are very different from the Klingon culture as we saw it there, I still think there could be some way to reconcile the two histories (perhaps at the same time explaining the forehead issue-- i think FutureGuy had given gene-morph capability to Klingon at some point in his Temporal Cold War, and the traits carried on into the 2260s but were bred out after that.. meaning that Kor, Kang and Koloth just closed their eyes and made their foreheads go away and come back at will.. lol.
Personally, I like Ford's version better than TNG, but then again I like TNG's version better than TOS's version, which pretty much made the Klingons a bunch of honorless, one-dimensional, intergalactic troublemakers.
What I'm saying is that Americans come from America, Canadians come from Canada, Mexicans come from Mexico, etc... Andorians come from Andor/ia, Tellarites come from Tellar, and Klingons come from Kling. I don't see anything 'silly' about it.
-MMoM
I was talking about a very well written novel. I didnt say that anything I said was or was not canon.. so i didnt need you to point it out. And next time don't.
[ November 06, 2001: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
True. In that most people when they say "American" mean "US citizen", and "America" mean "The United States of North America".
And humans don't come from "huma". While we're at it, the Dutch don't come from Dutcha either. And French and France only have the first two letters in common. Although I am happy to remain Englishan. Or Britianan.
"Saying Kling sounds silly is like saying 'Klingons' or 'Klingonese' sound silly."
"Klingons" does sound silly. It really, really does. The only reason you don't think it does it that you've become desensitised to it.
Come on, if there was an alien race introduced in Enterprise called "Grab-ons", you'd laugh and call R&R silly monkeys.
I really want to meet the person who came up with the name Klingon and just say "honestly, was that the best you could do? Or was it a choice between Klingon and Arsemunchers?"
I'd also point out that the Danes are from Denmark, the Welsh are from Wales, and that Letts are from Latvia. Also, the moons of Jupiter are considered "Jovian".
Need any more examples?
Besides, the argument wasn't over the feasability of the Klingon Homeworld being called "Kling", because it could have been quite easily (and almost was).
No, our argument was:
1/ It's called Kronos/Qu'onos.
2/ "Kling" sounds really silly.
Tim: Really? While I suppose we should be glad he didn't have a friend called "Niggerhater", or something charming like that, it still doesn't mean that "Klingon" is not a silly name. Because it is.