Already now, Enterprise strikes me as the series with the least human cultural diversity ever in Star Trek. Every human seen or mentioned so far in the series (corn farmers, admirals, Terra Nova settlers, crewmen) was US-American, except for Reed. I count in Hoshi Sato because of her obviously American accent. And Ethan Novakovich, despite his "exotic" last name, must be American too, for no one else would name their child for an inflammable gas. "Conestoga" is obviously something American too, although I didn't find out its original meaning. American customs and trivia rule the whole series. Instead of mentioning anything non-American, we even get the third reference to Amelia Earhardt in Star Trek, and to another guy who vanished too and of whom I've never heard before. I didn't even bother to check where he's from.
It is much easier to list the very few things that are not US-American: the Amazon University in Brasil, Hoshi's descent, Malcolm Reed, Phlox's mention of Chinese food. Am I missing anything? In any seven episodes of TOS, TNG, DS9 and even Voyager there are dozens of references to foreign countries.
Anyway, even if we take into account that Enterprise is made for the male white American viewer, there is much more cultural diversity in present-day USA than on a 22nd century starship of a united humankind!
*takes cover*
[ November 12, 2001: Message edited by: Bernd ]
[i wrote a whole bunch of stuff about America in general here, but decided against it 1) because its off topic and 2) i dont want to be crucified, have a flag stapled to my face and mailed to Afghanistan]
[ November 12, 2001: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
"And Ethan Novakovich, despite his "exotic" last name, must be American too, for no one else would name their child for an inflammable gas."
"Ethane" is a gas. It's name comes from Greek and Latin.
The characters name was "Ethan". Only the consonants are pronounced the same in both words, and this name is Hebrew. Not even in the same major grouping of languages.
Of course, if I wanted to, I could pretend that I don't know how to pronounce "Bernd", and wonder why someone would complain about "inflammable gas" names, when he himself is named after a word describing something that's already been inflamed.
Despite being a white American male in the 18-35 demographic, I am often disgusted by the lack of diversity on most television, not just Enterprise. Shows that take place in present-day America don't often reflect our nation's multicultural heritage either. Even a show like Will and Grace, considered to be so notable for having prominent gay male characters, is still just four white people and almost exclusively white guest stars.
Anyway, back to Enterprise, I might take exception to Hoshi... she is not only a trained linguist, but one with a supernatural gift for languages. I think she could easily be Japanese even if she sounds American, given these abilities.
As far as rationalizations go, in the case of the Middle East and Asia, bombing is unfortunately a likely possibility, especially if the whole civilizations bombed out of existence from "Space Seed" (TOS) were quite literal (whether the Eugenics Wars were in the 1990s or linked with World War III in the 2050s). That doesn't explain much regarding Europe... nor the fact that at least half of the Americans should be of non-British descent!
[ November 13, 2001: Message edited by: Ryan McReynolds ]
The past couple of Trek shows have gotten around the whitebread factor by including a lot of aliens in the cast (for example: none of Voyager's human regulars were of African descent. But they had a Klingon and a Vulcan that were played by African-American actors (ooh..big deal! Super Friends had Black Vulcan way back in the 70s.)
Star Trek is still waiting for a prominent Indian cast member, and also for many ethnic characters that seem to have not been born in the US. Uhura was supposed to have been from the United States of Africa, and thankfully still had some of her culture intact (and her first language was Swahili). No real idea where Bashir grew up, seems he was of Arabic & British descent. Harry Kim's home was also unclear. Sato seems to share traits with Sulu: even though they are of Japanese heritage, they both seem quite American. Sulu grew up in San Francisco.
I haven't see the episode yet, so who's this other missing person you mention?
Conestoga wagons are named for a city in Pennsylvania.
Should Star Trek be different? Yes. Is it different. Yes. Is it different enough? I dunno. I haven't seen Enterprise. And do we want to get to the Power Rangers level of "One black? Check. One Asian? Check. Roughly even number of boys and girls? Check. Guy with ADD? Check. Guy who eats dogs? Check."
And assuming the education systems of the world improve (and that America continues to scream at anything unfamiliar), it's not unlikely that foreign-types will be taught English with American accents.
Oh, and BTW, Bashir's dad was a Cockney. Through and through. And had a good accent too. So Bashir's probably from around that area too. Someone try and find an episode where he says "grass" (or a word that rhymes with it) and see if he puts in an extra "r" between the "a" and the "s".
quote:
I do have one Asian friend, from a Hindu family, although he's about as Hindu as Bashir was...)
Bashir was quite obuvisouly from a mideast backround. Didn't he once say that Shal El Bashir, the poet was a distant relative?(I'd check my Encylopedia but I'm posting this from work)
quote:
And do we want to get to the Power Rangers level of "One black? Check. One Asian? Check. Roughly even number of boys and girls? Check. Guy with ADD? Check. Guy who eats dogs? Check."
Well no, of course not. However, given the demograhic situation of the Earth by the mid-2000s, certain nationatlites should have more screen time than they have.
Of course there is the question of if the writers could write different nationalites without resorting to boorish sterotypes or conversly make them just cheap Americans with funny names.
quote:
"Ethane" is a gas. It's name comes from Greek and Latin.
The characters name was "Ethan". Only the consonants are pronounced the same in both words, and this name is Hebrew. Not even in the same major grouping of languages.
I'm aware of the difference. But to people who don't have English as their first language it will always sound strange as a name.
quote:
And do we want to get to the Power Rangers level of "One black? Check. One Asian? Check. Roughly even number of boys and girls? Check. Guy with ADD? Check. Guy who eats dogs? Check."
I don't think that it has to do with political correctness, but just with the ability to acknowledge the fact that there is cultural diversity in the present and that there should be in the future too.
quote:
I haven't see the episode yet, so who's this other missing person you mention?
"Ever heard of Judge Crater? Disappeared in the early 20th century."
Judge Joseph F. Crater is one of the most famous missing men in America, perhaps even the world. On August 6th, 1930, he told friends he would be attending the Broadway play, "Dancing Partner" that evening, and was never seen or heard from again. Nobody has been able to explain why Judge Crater disappeared, although there are no shortage of theories. Earlier in the afternoon, Crater went to his office, and removed a large number of papers from his files. He also cashed a check for a very large sum of money. It is also unlikely that he ever showed up at the theater to see the show. Since he purged his personal files, obtained a large amount of money, and seemed to form an alibi with the theater, it seems the most obvious answer is that he disappeared on his own accord. But no one can explain why he would wish to disappear. The corruption investigators failed to turn up anything on him. So there didn't seem to be any danger of a scandal. Some say he was murdered by members of the underworld (whom he knew). Some even say he experienced some sort of religious conversion, and ran off to Mexico. By now, it is doubtful whether we will ever know what happened to Judge Crater.
As for China and India, I'm guessing the entire region got nuked in WW3, which is why in over 500 hours of filmed Trek we've NEVER seen anyone from that massive segment of the population.
Oh, and Kim was likely from Korea, or at least of Korean descent. "Kim" is the Korean equivalent of "Smith".
And you know, frankly, I find it refreshing that they didn't give Sato a stereotypical Japanese accent. In 200 years, there should be LOTS of people of certain descents with accents you wouldn't expect. Take Picard, for instance: French, but with a Brittish accent.
quote:
Originally posted by CaptainMike:
Actually, Gregory Hines was a regular on Will & Grace for quite a while.
Hence the part where I said "almost exclusively" rather than "exclusively."
Regarding Bashir, he's half diverse... he's of Middle Eastern descent, but he's from Knightsbridge, England, according to Robert H. Wolfe. He's got the looks, but not the background.
I brought this up in another thread a few months ago: the novels have always done a fantastic job of showing good cultural diversity, and melting-pot qualities. The best example i can think of is Romeo "Hash" Takahashi, on of New Frontier's semi-regulars: part Italian, part Japanese he had olive skin, blond hair and a southern accent. The novels have covered all of the nationaliities/etnicities weve discussed in this thread recently with supporting casts that help flesh out the Starfleet universe.
At my job, I supervise a crew of primarily Vietnamese workers. Their culture, language, etc. although quite interesting, sometimes strikes me as being more alien than anything I've ever seen on Star Trek. I would love to see a Vietnamese crew member on the show, just for the same reasons Bernd described.
quote:
and the Americans can't stand it, so we all left.
Rest assured, you non-Americans, when Omega says 'Americans' he really means whacko- right-leaning, uneducated militia members.
I want to see more Keiko O'Briens.
Lisa Nguyen (from JM Dillards books) was Vietnamese too.. good character mix there on the security staff. Mohamed al Baslama and the 'ice princess' Ingrit Tomson.
quote:
Originally posted by Omega:
As for China and India, I'm guessing the entire region got nuked in WW3, which is why in over 500 hours of filmed Trek we've NEVER seen anyone from that massive segment of the population.
Actually, I thought North America was the hardest hit area during WWIII. Besides, it's a lot easier to wipe out 200-300 million people concentrated in major cities than something like 3-4 billion in South East Asian and the subcontient (India), most of whom still live in rural villages. We should be seeing a lot less Americans.
[ November 13, 2001: Message edited by: David Templar ]
But overall, yes, I totally agree with Bernd.
And what the heck is all this talk about Will & Grace??? Can someone enlighten me, and others that don't know, what precisely this is??
quote:
And what the heck is all this talk about Will & Grace??? Can someone enlighten me, and others that don't know, what precisely this is??
It's a TV show about a gay man (Will) and a woman (Grace) living together in an NY flat.
[ November 13, 2001: Message edited by: Spike ]
Bernd: Well, like I pointed out before, someone who isn't familiar w/ German would wonder why somebody would call their kid "burned". And, besides, as I also said, "Ethan" isn't an "American" name. You should be complaining to the Hebrews if you don't like their names.
That's what I was getting at. Apart from skin colour (which I never even noticed), Bashir is English. He drinks pints. Plays WWI games in the holosuite. The only thing wrong with him is that he hangs out with an Irishman (joke). I do wonder if it's a coincidence that he's a doctor, considering that of all the university courses in the UK, medicine is the most popular one by far for mid-Eastern students. I'd pegged Bashir as one of them. Rich mid-eastern family who sends their son to an English university to study medicine. I was wrong. Very wrong. But his dad had a brilliant cockney accent and was in Austin Powers, so I don't mind.
I wonder if Alexander Siddig is from Knightsbridge. Where on Earth is Knightsbridge?
"Well no, of course not. However, given the demograhic situation of the Earth by the mid-2000s, certain nationatlites should have more screen time than they have. "
As has been pointed out, giving the demographic of people watching Star Trek, then there probably aren't enough white Americans in the cast.
"I even want to see the girls in Sex and the City date Black and Latin boyz. But one could only dream..."
Actually, that's one area that needs impovement. Even Sisko hooked up with another black person. And can I drag up again the fact that in the US Red Dwarf, Lister was going to be white, partly because he fancied a white girl and that's wrong, but also because I don't think that American executives could grasp the idea of a black slob.
"I want to see more Keiko O'Briens."
At that point all arguements cease, and everyone just points and laughs.
quote:
Originally posted by CaptainMike:
I brought this up in another thread a few months ago: the novels have always done a fantastic job of showing good cultural diversity, and melting-pot qualities. The best example i can think of is Romeo "Hash" Takahashi, on of New Frontier's semi-regulars: part Italian, part Japanese he had olive skin, blond hair and a southern accent. The novels have covered all of the nationaliities/etnicities weve discussed in this thread recently with supporting casts that help flesh out the Starfleet universe.
Hash is pretty cool.
NF Spoilers
He's the ops officer on the Trident now. Actually, the whole nightside command crew is on the Trident. Mueller, Hash... Also, Arex and M'Ress from TAS are on the Trident, temporally displaced, of course. Also, there's this new guy named Gleau. He's a Selelvian, or elf for short.
Its nice to see a bigger part for Kat Mueller too. Sparks flying and the such.
And she's German.. yay!
Yes Psyliam, that is one thing that's always bothered me about US TV, is the fact that it seems so race-conscious, black men will often only ever be seen with black women and so forth. Why is this? Is it because they believe a black man dating a white woman would offend the general demographic? This is the 21st century for f**k's sake, is that how far television has come since Kirk and Uhura's kiss 30 some years ago!
If this is actually the case then this is a shame, and indeed it expands the points initially put forward in this very thread.
Anyone watch "Crossing Jordan?" There's a character played by Ravi Kapoor--an Indian--named Dr. Mahesh Vijayaraghavensatyanaryanamurthy. That's a bitch to say, though, so they call him "Bug" due to his entymological proclivities. (the scenes with him chasing thought the offices & labs after his hatched, escaped rare butterfly larvae--now butterflies--were hilarious)
Do you know where all this "diversity" shit has led us? I'll tell you. Y'know that remake of "Time Machine" that's coming up? They cast Samantha Mumba as the girl. Her name is no longer Weena, it's Mara. Why? She "looked" like a Mara more than a Weena. Why her? "Because after 800,000 years of interbreeding, humans will all look pretty much the same in skin tone. She had the look we wanted."
Pandering to self-absorbed bullshit, I tell you.
quote:
Originally posted by CaptainMike:
I'm just wondering how Ceti Alpha VI reformed itself in order to destroy itself again after Star Trek II. Seeing as there was a time portal involved, it seems that P.D. might have something in store for an explanation as to how M'Ress and Arex ended up in 2377 from different points of being lost in two different anomalies.
Well, I think PD might have confused some dates a bit here. I think what he intended was that Ceti Alpha VI exploded because of the gateway M'Ress travelled through, but didn't realise that when M'Ress went through it, it had already been destroyed. I don't possibly think there's a way to fit it in anywheres, seeing as where CA VI exploded, what, six months after Khan got there or something? Not enough time for M'Ress to be on the Enterprise, get transferred to the Einstein (?), visit CA VI, blow it up, then Khan and his cohorts be stranded on a desert world for a decade-ish.
[ November 13, 2001: Message edited by: Mr. Christopher ]
M'Ress disappeared 90 years before the new book, 2377.. that corresponds to around 2287. And she was serving on the Einstein. Id say he definitely intends her to be a continuation of the M'Ress he wrote in the comics
The question is why P.D. chose to say Ceti Alpha was still there and exploded (again). A) he messed up his dates or B) he has a bigger storyline planned.
I say this only because, when someone asked him why there was a 16 month gap between two of his novels that he didnt explain, he went back and wrote a comic the explained Excalibur had time traveled and used a slingshot to return to its own time, but missed by 16 months. Braxton was in it, sternly lecturing Mac about time travel. Oh it was grand.
If we continue this, we should start a NF thread because i want to see more replies on Cultural Diversity from Bernd in the gang
How did the Trident change from a Galaxy in "Gateways: Cold Wars" to an Ambassador in "Gateways: What Lay Beyond"? (The registry given in "Cold Wars" would fit an Ambassador infinitely better, of course!)
What happened to the Talos IV -related death penalty between "Once Burned" (where it's abolished) and "Being Human" (where it's back in force)?
And of course, what's the story with the help of which PAD will finally climb out of that deep, dark hole he dug for himself with that XO=!First Officer business?
Full points to PAD for cultural (or at least biological) diversity, though. Shelby better start checking if she has even one *verifiably* human shipmate among the thousands aboard those two ships...
Timo Saloniemi
Yes, the Trident makes a lot more sense as an Ambassador.. I'd be glad to accept that one.
PAD's best gaffe explanation though, was when he had Captain Ariel Taggert in command of the Repulse in 'Vendetta,' without realizing that Captain Taggert had been shown as a man in 'Unnatural Selection' He wrote a scene in 'Worf's First Adventure' where Captain Taggert explained that his daughter was a young officer who he hoped would take over his command someday. Bizarre but true!
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Bernd: Well, like I pointed out before, someone who isn't familiar w/ German would wonder why somebody would call their kid "burned". And, besides, as I also said, "Ethan" isn't an "American" name. You should be complaining to the Hebrews if you don't like their names.
It may not be the most typical American/English name, but the fact that you don't think about the gas when you hear it proves that it is an Anglicism/Americanism. Anyone not speaking English (or Hebrew) would think, "What a silly name". It is obvious that there will never be a character named Bernd, but they could at least choose more universal names. Well, there are even much worse names than Ethan.
You're a very silly German, Bernd.
So Snay, you're not from Germany, and 'Bernd' isn't a common name for you. The name 'Bernd' (one would guess) is simply a Germanic variation of 'Bernard', nothing strange there.
But Bernd is still a silly German (good fin' I 'aven't wotched a WWII movie recently or I'd be callin' 'im a silly Kraut ...)
WE ONLY MAKE UP ABOUT HALF OF THE WORLD'S POPULATION!!!
And we ain't exactly "backward" compare to U.S. in both culture and technologies!
I thought Bernd was pronounced not as much like 'burned' but more like if you put a 'd' at the end of 'bairn'
In my German class we all have German names and that was one of the kids 'assigned' names. Someone found it real amusing to taunt him by saying the name very quickly like a guitar noise and make a song out of it 'bernd bernd BERND'!!!
The usual complaint is that Trek basically made all humans act like Americans, then shows what they believed to be cultural diversity by having human-looking alien races that acted in the way that Americans believe other human nationalities and cultures act. For example, Vulcans (TOS style, not Enterprise style) are basically Asian Buddhists with bowl haircuts. Ferengi have been accused of being inadvertantly racist portrayals of Jews. I'm sure everyone can match up other aliens to other human races.
On the other hand, the major alien races reflect US racial makeup, including 85% whites and 15% blacks. Why don't they have a race of aliens played all by Asian-American actors? People would probably complain the aliens looked like they came out of a bad Japanese monster movie. Of course, there was that racist jungle episode, but the problem was that the culture behaved according to a US-centric stereotype. They should have an alien race played by nonwhite actors behaving contrary to US stereotypes of racial behavior.
And that thing about Ferengi being a portrayal of Jews? Whoever came up w/ that would have to be the one acting racist. The Ferengi are simply greedy and capitalistic. Basically, if anyone said they're like Jews, that person would be the one claiming that Jews are greedy and capitalistic, not the creators of the Ferengi.
Amidst the 50+ "Yeah, the producers suck" posts was not one post pointing out that Berman and Ira Stephen Behr are Jewish.
It made me laugh. Kind of.
Why's that thing change 'Mike' to 'Ichabod' .. WTF?
*sigh* try saying 'sour Kraut' out loud. I swear it was funny.
I'm not even sure if that's offensive.. but I'm a German American, and as a caucasian its hard to find anything to make me feel slurred against. I suppose I'll get over it.
The closest i came (besides being called a Kraut when i speak German) was when i lived in FL and they put up a 'Cracker Barrel' in my neighborhood, and a friend of mine said i should go, but he'd stay home because he didnt like ethnic food. Had to think about that one for a minute.
He was one for the diversity books, too. A Canadian by birth, 1/4 Scottish, 1/4 French, 1/4 black Jamaican and 1/4 Chinese.
Well, what I'm trying to say is that the Ferengi have been accused of fitting the STEREOTYPE of Jews, the MISTAKEN RACIAL GENERALIZATION about Jews, not how Jews actually are. For example, if I were to point out that Harry Kim is a virginal, insecure Momma's boy who can't drive and then say he fits a stereotype about Asian-American males, I would not be saying that Asian-American males are actually like that.
(No offense to Harry Kim or Korean-Americans is intended.)
I think. Mind you, it's been awhile since I've seen it.
It would be like if some character acted like a stereotypical black person, and people started complaining that the producers were racists and Klansmen and should die for perpetuating myths about blacks. But the character is white.
Also, I don't want to accuse the producers of racism in the creation of the Ferengi. I don't know if the Ferengi's resemblance to a Jewish stereotype was noticed during their creation, but it has been remarked on subsequently, even by actors or others working on the show. However, I find it hard to believe that no one raised objections to that jungle tribe show.
If there are black Klingons, why not Asian Klingons? Their early make-up and portrayal sort of reminded me of Ming the Merciless! Asians have played Romulans (for example, the Peace planet representative in STV) and Vulcans (at least in the background).
Mike, certainly didn't mean to offend you ... I'm half German as well (they came over after the first war, before the second), but after watching so many World War II movies this week for vetran's day (not to mention the 10-part "Band of Brothers"), I'm liking how 'kraut' sounds ... anyhoo ... pardon!
This suggests a) that my memory (as usual, I'm old) is faulty, b) American English is the only language spoken by humans in the Federation, c) everyone learns American English at an early age, as well as their native tongues, so that they have no discernible "foreign" accent to their American English.
Bashir's dad definetly had a cockney accent, although it was quite mild. His mum had an Indian-type accent (sorry, I can't be more specific) as well I think.
As an aside, the main reason we had so many black Klingons in TNG (and the reason why a black man was chosen in the first place) was to make make-up easier. White people have to have their faces coloured, whereas black people don't, no doubt saving a million hours a year in make-up salarys.
If you're being serious, I don't think what you're suggesting is true. I'm sure all the face skin of any actor is covered with make-up regardless of whether they have facial appliances.
Does anyone remember any comments at the time when the Klingon "color line" was broken? Or did everyone seem to accept it pretty well. There seemed more resistance to the idea of a black Vulcan (Tuvok).
With Tuvok, though, the differences between black and white weren't hidden. Most noticeably, all Vulcans before and after had straight or moderately curly hair, even Tuvok's black wife, but he had tightly curled hair.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be black Vulcans, merely that there was a more unexpected change of appearance there than with black Klingons. In fact, I can't think of any good reason for there not to be analogues of every human racial group on other planets. While we're now pretty genetically mixed and there are no "true" races, the differences of appearance were initially selected for environmental and reproductive reasons... and if an alien planet is as environmentally diverse as Earth, there can be just as much physical diversity.
'If you're being serious, I don't think what you're suggesting is true. I'm sure all the face skin of any actor is covered with make-up regardless of whether they have facial appliances.'
Why wouldn't I be serious? And it is true. I think it says in the Next Generation Compendium. Besides, the white/olive Klingons have to have every visible part of their body coloured, whereas Dorn doesn't. Besides, there's a world of difference between applying the base make-up that every actor would have, and putting on skin colour changing make-up. Brent Spiner's hour (at least) in make-up wasn't just them putting in his contact lenses.
And it's possible it was accepted more because it wasn't made a big deal. Or rather, the thing that was made a big deal was the fact that there was a friendly Klingon, not that there was a black Klingon.
quote:
Originally posted by Grokca:
As to the black Vulcans, I would think that if there is one black vulcan they all should have been black or close to black. They come from a planet where ultra violet radiation is a lot higher than on earth, therefore if one group of them used darkened pigment to counteract this then because of the increased uv then most of them should have been dark.
The flaw in your reasoning is the idea that black Vulcans are dark to counteract the normal UV radiation on the planet. Perhaps, as it true on Earth, there are regions with varying levels of radiation.
Right, that's what we've been saying. It's pretty fishy that most aliens either are all played by caucasians or mirror exactly the racial make-up of the United States (without Hispanics or Asians). I find it unlikely that on every single planet a light-skinned race became the dominant racial type. Maybe it's Hodgkin's Law of Parallel Planetary Development, which would seem to be a godsend for white supremicists throughout the Galaxy.
Dark skin is the adaptation to UV radiation on Earth, but other adaptations may have evolved on other planets, such as hair, mineral deposits in the skin, tougher DNA, etc.
PsyLiam: I'm not going to say anything more about black Klingons, as I don't know that much about make-up. But is is true that they specifically sought to cast a black as Worf because of make-up concerns? With Starfleet Uniforms you only have to cover the head and hands.
Are you implying that it's racist in any way? I see it as common sense. Klingons were never "white" anyway, and casting a black person to play a dark-skinned Klingon to save money on make-up just seems practical.
Not at all. I'm just saying that casting somehow just because make up would be easier to apply sounds sort of strange. You'd think that other factors would be more important. Does this mean that the producers were considering only black actors for the role of Worf?
::shrugs::
quote:
PsyLiam:
I'm sure that they tried really hard to get a black man for Sisko, and a woman for Janeway
It's really too bad they weren't able to get a woman...