I don't get the whole "Tholianischaner" bit. May I please get some enlightenment?
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
*shrug* I wanted to write something nonspecific to link with and had a mild attack of Teutonicism. Anyway, this is, like, the best news in some time. Even Moore never got around to getting the Tholians back.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
it is German for Tholianianian!
and i am happy!
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
At least this should FINALLY dispell that awful misconception that "The Tholian Web" was the first contact with this race.
-MMoM Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
well any readers of Star Trek: The Early Voyages know that conflict with the Tholians was a longstanding issue.. especially when the Tholians started using the Chakuun as shocktroops
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Well, I'm both eagerly awaiting and totally dreading this encounter. First off, I think that the portrayal of the Andorians in "Enterprise" is one of the few things that I unconditionally like about the show. I'm hoping that they might succeed with the Tholians as well.
But I'm dreading this because the Tholians are literally the most mysterious menace in the Trek universe, because they've only been seen once yet hinted at so many times. I'm afraid that anything we see will simply not live up to our hopes and expectations.
Still, this story sounds intriguing...
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
They seem to avoid saying whether or not the Tholians are actually visible in the episode. I sure hope they don't do that "big floating diamond" portrayal I've seen...
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
The Shane Johnson thing? Yeah, that was pretty meh.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
the big floating diamond thing wasnt as bad as the squat stocky diamond-men with stubby arms and legs that DC comics featured..
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Since there's neither a mention of any extensive CG work involving actors, nor a credit for "Commander Loskene Sr.," my bet would be that none appear in person. Which sort of makes sense, considering their environment, though we did hear about the Tholian ambassador to the UFP visiting DS9 a few times, as I recall. Special encounter suits! Tholians! Wedge ships! Trans-temp
*explodes*
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
oh dear. he's gone and done it again.. I..
*dies*
Posted by Warbadden Hawkins (Member # 905) on :
Well is this a step up for ENT, it might be...unless the tholians are a peacefull friendly race...
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Warbadden Hawkins: Well is this a step up for ENT, it might be...unless the tholians are a peacefull friendly race...
Oh, of course we wouldn't want that! We wouldn't want "Star Trek" to turn into a show about peaceful coexistence and mutual understanding, would we?
It's occurred to me that perhaps the reason there are no Tholian actors credited is because they'll be CGI characters? Probably on the viewscreen, but still CGI. I just hope that we're not given a lame jag-off excuse like what we're being given for the Romulans, as in "Minefield."
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Even if the characters are CGI, there would still be a voice credit, at least.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The episode all revolves around Hoshi recieving a ChiaGrow your own Tholian for christmas.....
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"the big floating diamond thing wasnt as bad as the squat stocky diamond-men with stubby arms and legs that DC comics featured.."
Well, I just meant that I don't like the "crystal-people" theory. I prefer the "Loskene was wearing a helmet or something" theory.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The hell? "Minefield" was lame because the Romulans avoided visual contact? OH NO!!! WHAT HAVE THOSE EVIL TV MEN ALLOWED TO OCCUR?!?!
Seriously, this board is way out of tune.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Not to mention that had the Romulans made themselves seen, it would have been a continuity error.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Sorry, that came out wrong. I'm glad that they're avoiding the continuity error with the Romulans.
What I was trying to say is that in that particular episode, the Romulans seriously lacked any menace because we didn't see them personally. IMO, anyway. And that having ANOTHER faceless alien menace would be kind of boring.
The whole point of conflict is supposed to be personal conflict, personal drama. About the only faceless menace I really like is B5's Shadows, and that's because their ships are so damn creepy.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Isn't the whole point with the Romulans that everyone knows who they are, and what will happen, and what that means? I mean, it seems everyone complains about continuity, but here's the perfect example of using past stories/future events to create dramatic tension.
Speaking for myself, anyway, I rather enjoyed the contrast between how the crew reacted to these to-them-new aliens and what I knew of them. Not to mention T'Pol calmly freaking out.
I guess what I'm saying is that the Romulans are enough of an icon to not really need anything in the way of introduction other than their name.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Yes, as far as drama goes, I thought that the handling of the Romulans in "Minefield" was quite decent. I liked the way they were kept mysterious, with T'Pol keeping her mouth shut about the whole thing and them lurking about in the darkness through the whole episode.
My only complaint is that I think they should have been introduced way back in "Silent Enemy." It would have been perfect! Instead, it was just some species-of-the-week which we'll probably never see again.
But I agree that going the same route with the Tholians would be a mistake. As Sol pointed out, the Romulans are already well known to us, but the Tholians are still an enigma, even after three decades of hintings and bits of background. I think it's time to finally unveil the secret.
-MMoM Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
quote:Originally posted by Siegfried: Even if the characters are CGI, there would still be a voice credit, at least.
Actually, not necessarily. Voiceovers are quite often uncredited, so frequently, in fact, that I suspect there're no union rules that require credit.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
After all, if James Earl Jones can end up not being credited on the original version of Star Wars, then anything's possible.
Voice actors are generally treated like shit in Hollywood anyway.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: After all, if James Earl Jones can end up not being credited on the original version of Star Wars, then anything's possible.
Actually, I think that George Lucas made a special arrangement with James Earl Jones to keep the voice secret... for whatever reason. I would suspect that there was some kind of voluntary agreement that the actor made, before it was made final.
I remember for certain that Roxann Dawson was credited for her role as the computer voice in "Dead Stop."
I also remember that in "Babylon 5," Ed Wasser (Morden) had his credits left until the end of the hour in some of the second and third season episodes -- because JMS wanted to keep Morden's appearance in the episode a surprise whenever he popped up. Ed Wasser agreed to it... otherwise it wouldn't have been done.
As for voice actors in general -- well, I can't say for certain. But from the examples I cited above, I'm sure there are some rules, at least.
Hell, it could be as simple as the fact that the voice actors for the Tholians haven't been cast yet, because that part would be done in post-production!
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
The credit could be voluntary in some cases. After all, in cartoons where actors are actually credited for playing parts, they're often not credited for every single one line person they might be.
Keeping actors names off the opening credits is tricky. They managed to do it with whatzername in "Heart of Stone", but she was only in it for 5 minutes.
And on the flip side, Whatzername was credited as "anna" in the post-opening credits on Shadow Dancing, even though that was suppossed to be a surprise.
And did the guy who played Launchpad on Ducktales ever get credited for saying "These aren't the droids we're looking for"? DID HE?!
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: I remember for certain that Roxann Dawson was credited for her role as the computer voice in "Dead Stop."
(Bracketed stuff not actually being in the credits.)
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I don't know which version of the show you watched, but I specifically recall seeing her name listed in the closing credits of that episode. I looked.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Quite possibly because she directed it.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
No, the directing credits go in the BEGINNING, at the opening of the first act. I also saw her name listed in the closing credits, and not for the director's role.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
meanwhile, Majel Barrett got credit for a great deal of the TNG episodes, in the closing credits, for voicing the computer. but then again, Judson Scott asked that his name be removed from all credits for The Wrath of Khan because he was disappointed with the final result of his role as Joachim. Its situational.
Posted by Cadet Sorak (Member # 874) on :
quote: unless the tholians are a peacefull friendly race...
Maybe they originally were, then Archer pissed 'em off, like he does with so many other races, and that's how the war started...
quote: ...Not to mention T'Pol calmly freaking out.
Vulcans are good at that, aren't they? Personally, I loved that scene.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
It seems the Tholians are involved in the Time War. Does anyone have the slightest clue what the heck this "Cold War" is supposed to be about? It would be nice to know what we're watching Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Ooh... I like the looks of this. Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Be nice if it turned out to be an Aeon-type fighter. Or would it. . ?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
My hope is for it to be an amazingly advanced shuttlecraft from the distant 2260s.
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
Does anyone have the exact dialogue from "The Tholian Web"? I remember that Commander Loskene appeared on screen in a very mysterious fashion (oh well, the score may have made it appear mysterious), and that the crew were watching in awe. There was something about entering Tholian territory, and the Enterprise didn't know about that. Is there anything that would have to be interpreted as a first contact?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I'm not sure which side of the argument you're taking there, Bernd. I'm 50 miles away from my copy of the episode, but the usual reason given for that not being the first contact between the Tholian Assembly and the UFP is Spock's "the renowned Tholian punctuality" line. And the general feeling in the episode, as I took it was "Oh no, Tholians!" and "They're spinning that damn web thing." more than "Who the heck are these guys?"
That the area of space was claimed by the Tholians was not apparently known, but then they didn't seem like the kind of people who felt overly obligated to keep their neighbors informed about such activities, and it was a fairly out of the way region of space.
Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poet: Be nice if it turned out to be an Aeon-type fighter. Or would it. . ?
Yeah, this "temporal spy plane" does sound a lot like an Aeon. Maybe we'll find out what role Braxton's contemporaries are playing in the Temporal Cold War.
Canonically. Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: My hope is for it to be an amazingly advanced shuttlecraft from the distant 2260s.
I wonder if they'll ever bring TOS-era tech into the show and make it believably more advanced.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
The impression I got from "The Tholian Web" was that the Tholians were making a unilateral claim to the area of space that the Enterprise was in, and the Enterprise was either uninformed, or the Federation rejected that claim.
I'm kind of intrigued, especially about potentially getting other races involved in this Temporal Cold War. (Whatever the heck it is, anyway.)
(BTW, did anyone notice the article about them considering the Gorn now, too? Dunno if that's a good thing or a bad thing...)
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
quote:And the general feeling in the episode, as I took it was "Oh no, Tholians!" and "They're spinning that damn web thing." more than "Who the heck are these guys?"
So they may have been troubled because they knew the Tholians, and not because they didn't. Makes sense to me.
In "Arena", on the other hand, Kirk had no idea who the Gorn were.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
But you have to admit, seeing the Gorn done with modern makeup and/or CGI would be interesting at the very least.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:BTW, did anyone notice the article about them considering the Gorn now, too? Dunno if that's a good thing or a bad thing...)
I think that's a good idea. It would be cool, if the Gorn boarded the Enterprise and stunned everyone. One crewmember wakes up and rescues the ship but the crew will never find out who the aliens were, so that Kirk can make official first contact a century later.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
You're kidding, right?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Nope, he's dead serious.
Although, I must say, I didn't really have a problem with "Acquisition." I can completely believe that after two centuries that the NX-01's single encounter would be forgotten about. After all, what could Archer report? Not much except for "Yeah...um...these aliens with big ears who like gold a lot raided us...and...um...yeah..."
-MMoM Posted by E. Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"...and...um...I forgot to ask what species they belong to...yeah..."
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
I'm surprised Captain Kirk's monologue didn't run ". . . to seek out new life and new civilisations - and actually ask their names this time. . ." 8)
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by E. Cartman: "...and...um...I forgot to ask what species they belong to...yeah..."
What makes you think they would have told him? Besides, when someone raids your ship and anesthetizes your crew, it wouldn't exactly be the first thing that comes to mind to ask "So what planet are you guys from?" It wasn't a friendly sort of contact, y'know? And since the Ferengi have no empire or anything, and just act as individual pirates/entrepreneurs, there's no reason for them to proclaim who they are---unlike the Klingons or Romulans who try to intimidate their opponent by shaouting "We are the Klingons!" or "This system is under the rule of the Romulan Star Empire!"
-MMoM Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Um... the whole point of their mission is to see what's out there. They can't be doing that very well if they can't provide a name to go along with the description... and a name to match the reports that they hear from other races along the way.
Y'know, like how Picard's crew had received reports and information regarding the Ferengi from other races, and therefore knew something of what to expect when they talked face-to-face. (Sorta.)
Hell, for all Archer knows, those big-eared pirates could have been Romulans! Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The whole TNG set up for the Ferengi didn't make huge amounts of sense.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Why not? Starfleet certainly doesn't have a monopoly on exploration of the galaxy. Even inside the Federation, it's perfectly reasonable to believe that some individuals or small private groups set out and met the Ferengi at some point. Or alternatively, the Ferengi could have visited some planets and then left, and then later on the Federation visits them and hears stories about the Ferengi.
The official First Contact is not necessarily the real First Contact.
The only thing that doesn't make sense about it is ENT's handling of the matter... that the Ferengi have been operating in what will become Federation space for close to 200 years before they're finally encountered by any official Federation representatives. That's what doesn't make sense.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, I personally have some small complaints about a scenerio in which the Federation's greatest nemesis has never actually come into contact with them. I mean, conflict is implicit in the definition, but how exactly do you struggle with a group you've never even encountered?
"If you don't buy Farpoint we'll sell it to the Ferengi."
"Oh no! We don't even know what Ferengi ships look like, or what their capabilities are, because no one has ever had any contact with them ever. But we're certainly very afraid of them indeed."
Of course, the writers felt the same way almost before the Ferengi were introduced, and thankfully abandoned the whole premise, leaving future episodes of Star Trek free to show the Ferengi with their hands in pies far and wide without having to claim that they somehow only got there within the last few years. I mean, central to the whole idea of being successful in business is having connections, which are hard to come by if you're a hermit. I have a hard time believing that a Starfleet Intelligence agent could get within five light years of Bajor during the later years of the Occupation and not hear about Quark, for instance.
So, to sum up: I think that the Ferengi character was changed so much that any information given in the early days is suspect. (Similar to Spock being a member of the conquered Vulcanians.) I also think that the initial setup for the Ferengi as given in "Encounter at Farpoint," "The Last Outpost," and "The Battle," isn't workable.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
And a bit silly.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bernd: Does anyone have the exact dialogue from "The Tholian Web"? I remember that Commander Loskene appeared on screen in a very mysterious fashion (oh well, the score may have made it appear mysterious), and that the crew were watching in awe. There was something about entering Tholian territory, and the Enterprise didn't know about that. Is there anything that would have to be interpreted as a first contact?
Spock and the Tholians agreed to a certain amount of time to rescue Kirk for the next interphase, after the attempt to get Kirk the first time and time was up the Tholians began to attack the Enterprise; at which point Spock noted something to the effect of "the Tholians renouned punctuality". 'Renouned' generally means "well-known", as I believe, Kasidy mentioned Tholian punctuality in "For the Cause" and her supposed rendezvous with a Tholian Freighter. I also recall when I last watched this ep that Spock didnt seem all too suprised to learn that that ship was the Tholians, a reaction I've noted T'pol to have when she knows something but hasnt shared it much with the crew of the Enterprise (ex. "Minefield"). I would say that if anything the Tholians, by the time of TOS were not a first contact species.
As for the Gorn, I rewatched "Arena" and although they noted that whatever they were, were "not warm blooded" that does not necessarily mean that they would be able to instantly associate "cold blooded" with Gorn. As for not knowing their ship could be as easy as a new design for the Gorn that they were not familiar with. I think there is a possibility to pull a good Gorn story out of Enterprise if it is well written.
Finally I thought I would offer a few suggestions of races they could use in Enterprise that would make for a better story than the "Alien of the week": 1) Any species mentioned in TOS or TNG not actually seen that fit the bill. (Ex. Barolians from "Unification") 2) Any species we saw in the Federation Counsil during Kirks trial or the Khitomer Conference. Such as an inspiring episode involving the species that was the Federation President duing ST6 or the helm officer of the Saratoga in ST4. 3) Benzites, Betazoids, Bolians, Katarian, Miradorn, Sheliak, Talarians, Yridian, Tellarites(obiously an advanced race if they had ships in the 20th Century), Tarellian ("Haven" TNG) or Orions (the first species Trek ever introduced in "the Cage")!!
Just a though, by the way, HI, Im relatively new, old to the forum, new to the member list, let me know what you think! Thanks
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Minor Nemesis spoilers below:
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And the Romulan Senator Tal'aura didn't want to be late for the meeting with the Tholian Ambassador.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by The_Tom: *shrug* I wanted to write something nonspecific to link with and had a mild attack of Teutonicism. Anyway, this is, like, the best news in some time. Even Moore never got around to getting the Tholians back.
Ahhh - but they didn't do it on DS9 cause they needed a story that required them - not like Enterprise which I presume has several 'sweeps' items up it's sleeves for the years ahead.
Tholians - I'm gonna guess are a sweeps - desperation item.
The Gorn will be next.
The maybe the Tellarites.
Then T'Pol doing some lesbian pon-farr thing.
Then the piece de resistance (scuse the pun) they'll bring along a Borg episode.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Yes. 100% different than pulling a flashy war story out of nowhere when the show is in danger of tanking.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Yes. 100% different than pulling a flashy war story out of nowhere when the show is in danger of tanking.
Bah, they planned the DS9 thing for a whole season. Read the DS9 Companion -- they were considering the possibility of some kind of adversary from the other side of the Wormhole from the beginning of the second season!
The reason they didn't do it sooner was because they decided to get the series established and the setting built up before they started messing around.
Also, we didn't hear from the Dominion for most of the third season aside from a couple of throwaway episodes not directly related to interstellar politicking; the rest was just fear of an invasion that didn't materialize just yet.
Hell, if they were desperate for the ratings on DS9, then why did they wait for half a season after the Dominion annexed the Cardassians before they started the actual fighting? It's because they were building a story with logical progression and a buildup of suspense. (The handling of the war after the end of the "occupation arc," OTOH, wasn't as good. But that's not the point, really.)
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: Bah, they planned the DS9 thing for a whole season. Read the DS9 Companion -- they were considering the possibility of some kind of adversary from the other side of the Wormhole from the beginning of the second season!
Adversary != war. The Cardassians in TNG were adversaries. The Romulans were adversaries. Neither turned it TNG into a war show.
You're right about season 3 though. That certainly never contained any show changing gimicks designed to stop falling figures. At all.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Uh...I don't know about you guys, but I'm one of those many fans who think the War was the best thing they ever did with DS9.
I'm looking forward to seeing Tholians as recurring characters on ENT, unless of course it turns out they screw them up somehow. (Not that I'm assumnig this will happen. I'm just considering the possibility.) Gorn are a definite no. Clear first contact in "Arena."
-MMoM Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Please note that at no point in this thread so far has quality been discussed.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
OK The addition of the Defiant and a new threatening species might have been ratings pushers for DS9 - but they didn't just arrive for a few episodes (or one) for sweeps and LEAVE - they became integral parts of the show - and YES by the end of Season 1 the producers/writers were planning the idea of having a major new threat on the other side of that wormhole. I'm saying - and this is in response to the response of my last post - is can you see something like a T'Pol lesbian pon-farr turn out to be a thread that runs through the whole show? I will say this though - Enterprise has been nicely referencing previous episodes - that is not blatant listing off previous events out of no where - happened quite a bit in Voyager - as if to appease complaining Fans. They should build on what they discovered in Season 1 and now 2 in further seasons instead of leaving every show just another individual show.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
I would just like to say that I would have no objections to a T'Pol lesbian pon farr episode. Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
It should be pointed out that the novel idea of not having a Defiant existed for two episodes in sweeps and then left.
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