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Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
 
WTF was up with Archer in that last scene!?!? Shouting at Trip at being irresponsible and impulsive. When did he suddenly become a slightly more competent commander?

Overall this was a pretty good episode for ENT. It felt a bit more substantial than most recent episodes, and Archer's first speech about not interfering with other cultures was a nice Star Trek moment.

On a more nitpicky side, it's too bad that we have yet another throwaway alien of the week, and I really don't like that in a series that's supposed to be in 'known' space. And apart from cruising around in a star, they didn't really seem to do any substantial science at all?

Anyway.. I don't know what the point is I was trying to make, but I'll post it anyhow.
 
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
I'm really fond of the idea of that last bit, but the execution felt slightly off to me, for some reason. At any rate, Trip did do something kind of similar to previous things Archer had done, and thus, tension and stuff. Neato.

Re: science: While I'd like to see more of the scienctific complement of this expedition, it seems to me that, unfortunately, the kinds of observations one can make of a star that don't involve flying around way too close to it probably don't make for good TV.
 
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
 
Unless humanity is willing to cast aside its cherished 22nd century principles in favor of good relations with the... Vissians? (whatever), I don't see how not interfering in their culture while remaining on ever-so-friendly terms can sit well with many officials.

That scene felt awfully one-sided, 1) for not letting Trip get a word in edgeways, and 2) for explicitly NOT having Archer express his resentment at the way cogenitors were/are treated, alien customs or not.

[ May 08, 2003, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: Cartmaniac ]
 
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
I did enjoy how the alien captain didn't want to make a big deal over it, though.
 
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
 
He might still, in the off chance that we'll meet him and his species again. Would be an interesting follow-up.
 
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
It does seem odd, however, that Archer didnt see Trips side, considering how rightous Archer usually has been, thus far...thou, I could see that maybe Archer was more concerned with losing his new butt-buddy and actually having a friend for once, considering the number of enemies encountered the last few weeks, versus the ethics of their culture...
 
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
 
Oh right, the G'Kar episode.
Just out of curiosity, how many "bad" results of Prime Directive violations have there been in Star Trek vs. "good" violations? Does anyone have numbers on this?
 
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
Oh right, the G'Kar episode.
Just out of curiosity, how many "bad" results of Prime Directive violations have there been in Star Trek vs. "good" violations? Does anyone have numbers on this?
I think those numbers (and incidents) have been kind of sketchy. Hows 22ish TOS - TNG?? (see below)

Also: according to the ep. "First Contact"-TNG, the Prime Directive was instituted after the disasterous initial contact with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war. Go figure we see when that actually happened, or that it actually happens that way.

Known pre-Prime Directive violations:Known violations of the Prime Directive (TOS, TNG, DS9):
I'm not sure about those mentioned in "Drumhead", obviously they are according to the inquiry, but they were interferring with humans...so how does that work??

I'm not up on all of the Voyager violations...but in TNG, "Homeward" and "Pen Pals" saved a race, almost completely unbeknownced to the species in question, so I guess those might be 'good'; the rest have either been 'bad' (the 'Nazi experiment'), or to save the life of someone standed there (Wesley or crashed freighters) or any of the numerous times Kirk blatantly interfered to create a balance of power, or to free some race who is brainwashed by some computer...

This too, is not adding violations of the 'temporal prime directive' either...

Anyone up on what has Archer done, thus far, that would qualify?
 
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
"Captive Pursuit" is more of a legal snafu and first contact fuckup than a PD violation.
It was a case of two cultures clashing more than Federation interference.
 
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
"Captive Pursuit" is more of a legal snafu and first contact fuckup than a PD violation.
It was a case of two cultures clashing more than Federation interference.
Its really no different than "Cogenitor" as far as the whole thing being about 'equal rights'. The Tosk was subjugated by the Hunters and O'Brien didn't think this was right, because it was an intelligent creature, just like the Cogenitor. I believe it is even mentioned in the episode that O'Brien violated the Prime Directive when he disobeyed Siskos orders by allowing the the Tosk to escape rather than being taken home in disgrace. By not allowing the Tosk to be turned over to the Hunters as it was demanded, O'Brien intentionally interferred with an internal affair (like Trip did teaching the Cogenitor to read) and indeed broke the Prime Directive. The Omnipedia even mentions this reference in a couple different entries as well.
 
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
 
the Captive Pursuit violation worked because Tosk was happy to escape and the Hunters were actually happy to be chasing him again, rather than taking him home in disgrace. So basically, there were no complaints so the violation was minor.. if not for the thrill of the Hunt, you'd have a very pissed off alien power that would hold the Federation responsible for a lost fugitive.. but the Hunters really couldn't give a crap.. Tosk's escape helped them grab a little more glory.
 
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
The ends may have justified the means, but it was the means in the first place that were breaking the Prime Directive. You could say the same thing about the Cogenitor, if it was successful in attaining its independance, if the Prime Directive was involved, instead it just so happened to commit suicide. Whether the outcome of the interference was 'good' or 'bad', it was still interference... [Eek!]
 
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
I think the point is, though, that the "interference" in "Captive Pursuit" didn't change the status quo at all, even to the point of causing a single death, or averting one. As far as the Hunters were concerned, there were two acceptable outcomes. Either Tosk (the Tosk?) would be returned, or he would manage to escape and start the hunt back up again. Assisting Tosk counts as interfering in the sense that O'Brien was simply interacting with their culture by doing so, but it doesn't count as interfering in the sense that it altered any aspect of it. Had he spirited Tosk away to some other Federation world where the Hunters could not get at him, that would be a different story, in a seemingly minor but important way.
 
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
 
even with judgments about 'right'and 'wrong' or whether it was necessary or not, it still boils down to one thing.. who's willing to prosecute at the end? if no one presses charges, then the infraction is probably going to be OK
 


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