Firstly, I just wanna say I'm from South Africa, so we've only gotten the first two seasons of Enterprise, so please bear with me if what I'm about to say is bullcrap.
The 'Stealth technology' on ENT looks just like 'modern' cloaking technology. I was thinking that since this stealth tech is less sophisticated than cloaking as we know it, wouldn't it be more believable if the ships in question didn't completely vanish, but, rather like today's stealth bombers, just confuse other vessels' sensors. after all, at the distances dealt with in Star Trek, they wouldn't rely much on visual tags, but rather on sensors. If the ships just camoflaged themselves, and scrambled sensors, it would be a cool precursor to cloaking as we know it.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Well, the Xyrillian ship in "Unexpected" definitely had a cloaking device, and the Suliban have them as well, although theirs may come from the future. Oh yeah, and the Romulans too...
By the way, this sounds like a thread that should be in the Starships & Technology forum.
-MMoM Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well in season three the Gorn are in almost every episode, but their stealth technology prevents them from being seen.
...only my tinfoil beanie allows me to see them: they are everywhere! Beware! Posted by Bones McCoy (Member # 1480) on :
Right, I know that 'stealth technology' is cloaking, just like a 'phase pistol' is a phaser, but my point is that it looks just like cloaking, when it's meant to be more primitive. I just think the producers should have put more thought into it, rather than have 'modern' Trek technology in the wrong time frame.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Are you suggesting that every intelligent species has to develop at the same rate or it breaks your suspension of disbelief? Because it seems to me that the rational point of view is just the opposite.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Tacking on what Simon has said, are you also suggesting that every intelligent species also has to be at the same level of technology?
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
Yes, by all means, gang up on the newb. Along the way, completely overlook the fact that 50% of his two examples involved EARTH technology. I'm sure he'll feel very encouraged to share his thoughts some more.
Marian
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
So, uh, expressing confusion with where someone is coming from with an argument is "ganging up on" him or her? Well, good to know, I suppose. I guess I am opposed to the way the NX-01 was given a cloaking device after all.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
OK, so this sounds a bit more snippy than I might like, but I stand by my sentiment.
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: OK, so this sounds a bit more snippy than I might like, but I stand by my sentiment.
My point. I know if I were Bones' shoes I'd be feeling quite...snipped. Had you instead said "I disagree, because _______" I would not have found fault.
But then, maybe I'm just an oversensitive girly-girl who's still traumatized by the first day of kindergarten.
Marian
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
But ya know, he said, "The 'Stealth technology' on ENT looks just like 'modern' cloaking technology." Re-read if you need to. He said ENT, not Enterprise, so he's talking about the show, not the ship, nor Starfleet.
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
He used phase pistols as his other example, and I said "50% of his two examples."
Besides, whether he's right or wrong isn't the point. It was the manner in which he was disagreed with that I objected to, not the substance.
Marian
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Okay, but he's still assuming that phase pistols = phasers, when they are not.
Posted by Marauth (Member # 1320) on :
Phase pistols are of course completely different in the same way that G. W. Bush is a completely different kind of leader to Saparmurat Niyazov.
It's the same trick they've been pulling through the whole show - give it a slightly different name and suddenly it's not the same tech from hundreds of years hence it's completely different. Or with races like the Borg and Ferengi - just don't fracking mention their names and everything's cool! Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
1.) Only my second response is "angry," in my opinion.
2.) I'm only concerned with the cloaking device comments.
Posted by Bones McCoy (Member # 1480) on :
No offense taken. And as regards the claking devices, I'll concede that Suliban cloaking may come from the future, so it should look like 'modern' cloaking. But with Romulans and Klingons, for example, where we've got a futuristic point of refernce, yes, the technology should look more dated. After all, we've practically watched the technology evolve from TOS all the way to the end of VOY, so we can more or less determine the progression of certain technologies.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
How have the effects evolved, though? I mean, it fades in, it fades out. The effect from Star Trek III is more or less what a cloaking device looks like from then on. The difference between it and TOS is fairly minor, even.
Moreover, I think my original point stands. There shouldn't be a "modern" cloaking effect at all. There's no reason why my ten year old cloaking technology should look similar to your three hundred year old one, nor why they have to develop in parallel. (They certainly can if we're spying on each other or are trading partners.)
Besides all of that, why should a more advanced cloak look particularly different than a less advanced one, and what do we even mean by the term? The Suliban cloak, for instance, apparently operates on an entirely different principle than the others we've seen. But does that mean it should look "older" or "younger?"
Basically, this just seems, to me, to be a very minor issue. Of course, that being the case, my lengthy rant is probably unnecessary.
(On a side note, when do the Klingons use a cloaking device in Enterprise? I can't recall them doing so, but it's very possible I missed it, and if it were from season four then it's certain that I missed it.)
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
The Klingons have yet to use a cloaking device.
One difference between cloaking devices I've noticed is the slight tinge of colour over the vessel as it cloaks/decloaks. Its mostly a greenish colour with the Romulans/Klingons, but in Pegasus, the E-D gets washed in white. This could just be an effect of the ship's hull colour, though.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well, the Pegasus' cloak was phasing the ship as well.
Really though, there would probably not show any visible diffrences- aside from a more advanced cloak (like the Scimitar's) not showing that "distortion effect" on the viewscreen and (obviously) keeping ahead of contemporary sensor/detection technology.
Posted by Bones McCoy (Member # 1480) on :
I'm a little soft on the science, but what I was trying to get at was that surely it would be easier to simply decrease one's visual signature by turning the hull black and confusing one's sensors, instead of developing a device capable of manipulating light as well as sensors. I just think it would have been a cool way of demonstrating the development process of cloaking as we know it. I don't think any culture would skip over other methods of camouflage and jump staright to turning invisible... But I guess that's just my opinion. I can't speculate on the technological development of alien cultures, I can only give my opinion. And in my opinion, what works is what works. Eg. the Roman short sword was called the Gladius, after the Latin word for leaf. Zulu warriors used Assegais, shaped as leaves. Same with boats: cultures from all over the world designed sailing vessels along similar lines, even though they were totally different. These cultures developed along similar lines, even though they were isolated from one another. At the very least it's plausable to assume that the aliens in Star Trek would at some point have less developed technology, and this would look different from what we know.
So that's my rant for the day. By the way, I don't think Klingons use cloaking at this point. My bad.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
As The Story goes, the Klingons didn't get cloaking tech until after that technological exchange they had with the Romulans in the 23rd century.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Which would also account for the Klingons use of a "Bird Of Prey".
Because everyone knows that Romulans use a bird motief...er...for some damn reason.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"I don't think any culture would skip over other methods of camouflage and jump staright to turning invisible..."
But there's nothing to indiacte that they "jumped straight" to invisibility. For all we know, five hundred years before ENT, maybe they were painting their ships black.
Of course, there's also no reason why they couldn't go straight from nothing to full-fledged cloaking. All they'd have to do is learn/buy/steal the technology from someone. Like, oh, say, the Klingons?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Topher: As The Story goes, the Klingons didn't get cloaking tech until after that technological exchange they had with the Romulans in the 23rd century.
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Which would also account for the Klingons use of a "Bird Of Prey".
Because everyone knows that Romulans use a bird motief...er...for some damn reason.
Well, given the fact that we've already seen Klingons using "Raptors," "Birds-of-Prey," and perhaps even "Warbirds" in the 22nd century, I'd say that their technological exchange with the Romulans goes back at least this far, and probably farther. I'd say the same is true of the Orions as well, since their ships from "Borderland" were green and bird-shaped. All of which makes sense, seeing as how they all share borders with each other.
(NOTE: We also know that the bird motif is originally Romulan because as far back as the Time of Awakening [i.e., before they left Vulcan] they "marched under the raptor's wings.")
I wonder how upcoming episodes will deal with the Romulans already having the cloak in "Minefield." (So sad, as it was completely unnecessary. ) It was ignored in favor of holographic camoflauge in "Babel One," but this may have been only because the plot specifically required it.
-MMoM Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Wasn't the basic gimmick in "Minefield" a minefield full of cloaked mines? I mean, sure, you could do a different episode with a different gimmick, but as it stands the whole episode depends on that one.
(So I guess what I'm getting at is that I'm not sure what you mean by "unnecessary" in this context. For the episode that exists, having a cloaking device is a necessity for the story, since were the mines visible they would have approached the planet, if they did at all, in a different way. Now that could be changed, and you'd have a different episode, maybe better, maybe worse. But the cloak wasn't just a background detail in the story, is the thing.)
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Are you suggesting that every intelligent species has to develop at the same rate or it breaks your suspension of disbelief? Because it seems to me that the rational point of view is just the opposite.
At the risk of A)Putting my foot in my mouth B)Getting involved in a conversation not involving me and C)taking this conversation on a tangent...
I personally wouldn't expect 'every intelligent species has to develop at the same rate or it breaks my suspension of disbelief.' What gets me, however, is the appearance that other species development stagnates for 200 years while Earth/Federation catches up.
Vulcans and Romulans have warp drive for centuries before humanity, yet by TOS/TNG era that gap is closed.
I'm sure energy weapons will all look the same but "phase pistols" sure do work like phasers and the FX shots are identical. Why not have phase pistols work like the weapons from Babylon 5? Or Star Wars or Battlestar Galactica (TOS)? Is that a limitation of the FX dept.?
Holodeck tech: I think Ex Astrist Scientia's review sums it up nicely: "Continuity & nitpicking: Although the episode is overall pleasant, seemingly unimportant details give it a bad taste. First of all, we see a fully functional holodeck on the Xyrillian ship. Only the creation of interactive characters is not possible, but I see this as a rather small step until the functions will be the same we know from TNG. This holotechnology may be okay if it remains a secret of the Xyrillians, a race we won't see again (which in this case may be explained by the fact that their ships are cloaked). There is, however, absolutely no way that Klingons should get their hands on holotechnology as early as in the 22nd century, while the Federation will need no less than 213 years until the first lifelike holodeck will be installed aboard the Enterprise-D. Remember how excited Riker was about it in "Encounter at Farpoint"? Or Picard in "The Big Good-bye"? Or Lwaxana in "Manhunt"? It is even more implausible considering that we have never seen a holodeck on a Klingon ship even in the 24th century. We may make up excuses in that it was just a personal enjoyment of the Klingon captain that was never commonly accepted by the Klingons, or that his ship was destroyed and the holotechnology with it. But why should we try to excuse the carelessness that the producers couldn't wait longer than four episodes into the series to show us the most typical of all 24th century devices, woefully inappropriate within their self-imposed series premise? What bothered me too is that the Xyrillians had no problem to adapt the device to the Klingon power grid, something that was always made a big problem in Voyager. So the impression is created their technology is even more advanced than the Federation holodeck of the 24th century."
The list goes on. Either it's technology that is presented as new in TNG episodes or it's the FX that look identical to their 24th century counterparts.
True, Romulans may have had cloaking tech 500 years ago, but it would have been nice to see it developed a little more slowly. Why should Enterprise/Humanity be the only ones that are less advanced than Kirk and Picard's time? Why have other species stagnated?
Especially since TOS "Enterprise Incident" made it seem that the cloaking device was a relatively new invention."
Herb
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Perhaps the Federation had, by that point, thought they had beaten Romulan cloaking tech (which previously was likely rather poor in compairison to the more 'modern' versions) and then suddenly, the Romulans had again out done them
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Perhaps the Federation had, by that point, thought they had beaten Romulan cloaking tech (which previously was likely rather poor in compairison to the more 'modern' versions) and then suddenly, the Romulans had again out done them
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Stop double posting!
Stop double posting!
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Sorry
I'm not used to posting at school, something must have glitched
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Wasn't the basic gimmick in "Minefield" a minefield full of cloaked mines? I mean, sure, you could do a different episode with a different gimmick, but as it stands the whole episode depends on that one.
(So I guess what I'm getting at is that I'm not sure what you mean by "unnecessary" in this context. For the episode that exists, having a cloaking device is a necessity for the story, since were the mines visible they would have approached the planet, if they did at all, in a different way. Now that could be changed, and you'd have a different episode, maybe better, maybe worse. But the cloak wasn't just a background detail in the story, is the thing.)
You know, you are absolutely correct. I'm not sure what I was thinking when I posted that.
RE: Holotechnology I think it's become clear that it's really not that complicated. It's all over the place even in the 22nd century. If you believe the animated episode "The Practical Joker," (which I do) they had it on the E-nil. Sure, Janeway said in "Flashback" that they didn't have them aboard starships in the 2290s, but that could just be because that was a period of increased military rigidity in Starfleet. (Less creature comforts, in accordance with Nick Meyer's production design ethos during the films.) I actually just reviewed "Encounter at Farpoint," and nothing really seemed to imply that it was new technology; just that the E-D's holodeck was more advanced than previous models.
-MMoM Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, I mean, it's possible to find larger parts of the plot unnecessary. Sometimes I get weirdly insistant about these things for no apparent (or justifiable) reason.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Aren't there several TNG episode which imply that holotechnology isn't as new as "Farpoint" made it out to be? I seem to remember that there were, and the newness of holotech was something that should be put in the same catagory as the newness of the Ferengi (first season: wow super never seen these before, second season onwards: Pft old hat everyone knows about it/them).
Possibly Quark's holosuites...any implication that they had them during some of those flashback DS9 episodes?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I don't know. . . within the show, the holodeck quickly becomes just another entertainment, something everybody uses and is comfortable with (despite its unsettling failure rate), but I can't recall any concrete facts given about the length of time it had been around.
What I mean is, from the way the characters come to treat it, the holodeck does not appear to be a novel invention, yet no one ever says, if I recall correctly, "Oh, yeah, we've had these for ages."
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I can't either. I just have a feeling that we see it being used in some sort of flashback episode, but I can't for the life of me think which one.
Posted by Bones McCoy (Member # 1480) on :
I just heard ENT is being cancelled. I was gonna post something longer, but I'm a little bummed.
Anyway, I still think it would look cooler if everyone on ENT was less developed, not just Earth. Otherwise it just seems like a re-hash of VOY or DS9 or late TNG, just 200 years earlier, with everything being exactly the same. (Apparantly, only the devices' names have developed.)
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) It was ignored in favor of holographic camoflauge in "Babel One," but this may have been only because the plot specifically required it.![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
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