This is topic The Retarded shit Glenn Beck excrets out topic! in forum Other Television Shows at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.

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Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :

Posted by Captain39 (Member # 1001) on :
I was surprised to remember that Beck has only been with Faux news since late 08. I also find it interesting that he says this is the reason he didn't have many childhood friends.

Yes Glen, I'm sure THAT was the reason...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Crazy as a bedbug.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
That's an awesome clip. Probably his best show intro. Or, well, at least, the best of the like three of his show intros I've seen.
Posted by Zipacna (Member # 1881) on :
One thing I don't can a conservative be a fan of a series that shows a future where humanity has evolved past the need to acquire wealth through the exploitation of others? Surely the utopian socialist future of Star Trek should be heresy to him.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Speaking for myself, I don't view Star Trek as espousing socialism at all.

I've had the whole argument in mind for years and have posted it here and there but have never gotten around to posting a proper webpage on the topic, which is a damn shame in situations like this.

But, in brief:

1. Star Trek rarely delves into anything economic, so we argue in a vacuum to some extent.

2. Capitalism and communism are merely the latest examples of scarcity-based economics, which in the current world involves scarcities of material, labor, and high-tech manufacturing, among other things.

3. Star Trek suggests a time when manufacturing technology is such that an iPhone and a rock can't really be valued any differently (for those who would say they could be anyway).

4. While the concept of Star Trek's economics suggesting something along the lines of a post-scarcity model might be debatable, it remains true that the sort of upheaval that would result if a replicator were invented today would completely up-end any modern economic systems.

Or, to put it more to the point, I view Star Trek-era economics as being well beyond capitalism and communism. To claim that Star Trek shows a communist utopia (or socialist, as you said) is, to my mind, equivalent to someone from hundreds of years ago trying to decide if Trek showed a mercantilist utopia.

So no, I don't see any reason for Glenn Beck to have the slightest philosophical issue with Star Trek economics. And further, I certainly don't have the sense of overbearing government intrusion into the lives of the average Federation citizen, either . . . I think he'd appreciate that, as well.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I dont thnk it's communist, but rather that people have grown up- no longer thinking of their value as something bound to material posessions.

The whole "keeping up with the joneses" thing is either a thing of the past or they compete on a skills/experience basis.
For example, one might look at their neighbor's garden or guitiar playing as a source of accomplishment instead of the car or bigscreen TV.

Which explains both the way Ferengi are looked at by the Federation and why the holodeck and replicators are not abused severely.
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
Wouldnt Bernd be the best to discuss this? This is his subject matter, ST background, right?
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Actually, have it ever been discussed the exact type of government the Federation has? I think there's been allusion to maybe a democracy/ representative government, but no explicit mention. I mean we do know there's a president and a legislature, what are their powers exactly and how do they get elected? And though we've seen civilians, what are their rights in the Federation? And how do the governments of individual member states factor in? I mean Enterprise seemed to show that founding members of the UFP, like Vulcan and Andoria, weren't democracies.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
^I don't think it was ever directly addressed but the general impression I was always left with was that the Federation government consisted mainly of just the President and the Federation Council. I think there's some mention in DS9's 'Rapture' about Bajor having to choose their council representative(s) so that leads me to think that while the Federation itself is democratic, the members need not be. So each member world has the right to determine their own system of government and selects their representative by whatever means they wish, be it an executive appointment, popular vote or drawing straws.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
I do believe there is a requirement for there to be a unified world government (which is why Kespritt was denied entry) and I do believe there is also a requirement of the government being of a benevolent type (there was something about a world with a caste system in an episode of something...).
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Ardana, from TOS "The Cloud Miners" I'm guessing.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
There's at least basoc commerce- Kirk describes having sold his cabin in Generations.
Definitely not socialism.
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
WOW oh fuckingtacular WOW he got fired?

what will we do? Celebrate?

[ April 06, 2011, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: Pensive's Wetness ]
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
Glenn Beck's daily spot on the nation's leading cable news station is coming to a close little more than two years after his start on Fox News.
This scares me.
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
What's a Glenn Beck?

And Fox has something other than The Simpsons now?

I should watch more TV, or not.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
It's a conspiracy...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
The Beck episode was very well-made, good sendoff.

How will Fox News fare on hilarious self-unawareness now that Glenn Beck will soon be out of the picture?

Hm, oh yes. OOOH YES!
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
There's at least basoc commerce- Kirk describes having sold his cabin in Generations.
Definitely not socialism.

I like to think it'd actually be something more akin to freecycle, where ownership of property can be offered up to any who wants it. In a society that's apparantly eliminated greed, want and overpopulation this may not be as ludicrous as it would be in a capitalist economy.

So (in my mind at least) when Kirk says he "sold" his house or when Scotty says he "bought" a boat they're actually talking about a voluntary transfer of ownership. After all, it's not uncommon for archaic terminology to stick around in common usage despite their original meaning no longer being applicable.

Getting back to the Federation government, yeah I think there's a mention in DS9 that a discriminatory caste based system disqualifies a government from membership (the episode with that ancient Bajoran poet who thought he was the emissary IIRC.)

Mind you, while that sounds nice and reasonable, it's not the most well thought out policy. What about super-organism type races like the Formics from Ender's Game or the Gaim from Babylon 5? Both are sentient and sapient races that has no concept of the individual? Where they would view the death of their own the same way we might consider trimming off unwanted hair or toenails. It's not because they're callous or vicious, it's just a fact of their biology and evolution.

Look at it from the other side, imagine how a race that reproduces exclusively via parthenogenesis might view sexual reproduction. They'd probably find it abhorrent that a another being would implant a genetically hybridised offspring in another and be forced to carry it like a parasite. A race's biology would naturally shape and influence any form of government they might adopt. We come from communal apes so we're psychologically included towards consensus balanced by the strong leadership of an alpha. A race where males are rare, naturally nomadic and only the females build communities and raise young for example might create a perfectly harmonious society where the genders are not and cannot be considered equal. But by the human centric standards of the Federation, they'd be denied membership.

I often thought that Trek too often stuck with the idea that aliens would either be humans with funny looking faces, unrelated monsters or green wibbly lights. Concepts like self determination, democracy and free will are very particular to only certain types of life-forms.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well, consider the Bynars- they wre probabaly not the popular Federation members once the Borg started attacking- and from their POV, the Borg may represent an Omega Point in evolution- or it may scare the crap out of them, as they'd be particularly vulnerable to assmilation.

They may view their own super-organism consiousness as unique in the same way everyone else views their indivuality as unique.

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