Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Raven reconstruction

This is topic Raven reconstruction in forum Starships & Technology at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.

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Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

I have tried to draw the Raven, based on the front and rear views and the Okudagram:

http://www.uni-siegen.de/~ihe/bs/startrek/temp/raven.jpg

I know it's not as detailed as usual, just a basis for discussions. Maybe someone with better 3D imagination can correct it if necessary. Length estimation: 85m.

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Hm... Looks like a big shuttle...

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"You're a looney."
-Graham Chapman, Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Ever since that matt painting in "The Raven" Voyager season 4 - I have assumed that "The Raven" is just an ambassador era for the Sydney class ship seen in "Relics" "Emissary" "Trials and Tribblations" etc.

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With the first link, a chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all
irrevocably." Capt. Jean-Luc Picard - The Drumhead

Posted by Tachy on :

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Posted by Tachy on :

a few more pix could help, don't thank me, i am just a bad guy from another cool forum.

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Well, whaddaya know... It still looks like a big shuttle! *L*

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"You're a looney."
-Graham Chapman, Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Posted by Tachy on :

big and....................ugly

((((

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Posted by Lindsly on :

Could the USS Raven be a runabout? Runabouts are identified by a square body and square nacelles. Some speculation here-

Sydney Class
(first runabouts)
2290's
l
USS Raven
2350's
l
Danube Class
(current runabouts)
2360's and 2370's

The design of the USS Raven may be ugly. However, the design is not improbable like that of the Niagara or the Rigel or especially the Yeager.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

The Sydney and Raven are way too big to be runabouts, though...

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Posted by grb on :

Well, not for their day. The Danube class runabout is equipped with newer technologies, such as interchangable modules, that allows it to be smaller. Actually, I think the the Maquis raider was origninally a runabout. B'Lanna said it was sixt years old, so it might have been the runabout for the 2310's.

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"How many people does it
take before it becomes
wrong? 6,000? 60,000?
How many people does it
take admiral!?!" -Ambassador
Picard during his command
of the Enterprise-E in the
Ba'ku incident.

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

The Danube Class 'Runabouts' are way too small to be the later Sydney Class ships, - the sydney class has several decks - and a constitution sized bridge on top of it, with constiution nacelles.

also, sometimes the DS9 people turn the Sydney class upside down, to make it look like Danubes, but maybe that is just a different internal configuration - or that there is no right way up in space

Andrew

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

The rightside up Sydney model is a completely different ship then the upside down and backwards one. The Sydney is a starship in its own right, while the second one is much smaller, and aside from a resembalance to the the Sydney class, isn't meant to have anything in common with it. Or so I gather.

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They Might Be Giants

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

Tachy: Thanks for the additional images. I had no close side view so far. This will help me to refine the schematic. Looks as if the ship were a bit more stretched than I thought.

Lindsly: Welcome to the forum. The Sydney is more than 200m long and is anything but a runabout. The Raven has 4 decks and would be too big as well.

Sol System: It was the obvious intention of the DS9 VFX crew to make the Sydney look like a different design by turning it upside down. Is the DS9 version necessarily a smaller ship? That would bless us with a new scaling discussion.

*takes defensive position*

Posted by Lindsly on :

Bernd:
Your estimation of the size for the Sydney Class I believe is in error.
In the movie Generations, the producers had the Whorfin Class transport and shots of the USS Enterprise-B were done CGI. A scene of the shuttlecraft on the USS Enterrpise-D was done in matte. All other shots of starships and shuttlecraft were done with studio models. What studio models were available at the time?

*Ambassador Class
*Antares Class
*B'Rel Class/K'Vort Class (D-12 Class)
*Class 6 (Hawking)
*Class 7
*Class 15
*Constellation Class
*Constitution Class
*D'Deridex Class
*D'Kora Class
*Daedalus Class
*Danube Class
*Defiant Class
*Encyc Class
*Excelsior Class (Refitted Enterprise-B)
*Galaxy Class (Enterprise-D)
*K'T'Inga Class
*Merchantman
*Miranda Class (Unnamed)
*Nebula Class (Farrugut)
*Oberth Class (Unnamed)
*Peregrine Class
*Soyuz Class
*Sydney Class (Farrugut shuttle)
*Vor'Cha Class
and other small models

According to the Encyclopedias, the shuttle in The Undiscovered Country (NAR-25820), the starship Jenolen, and the USS Nash (DS9) are Sydney Class. This class is said to be an early runabout. I associate the Farrugut shuttle with the Sydney Class based on structural and other similarities. One of the similarities is the placement of the registry on the left-most stern section of the shuttle's hull. Another similarity is the black "grating" seen on the stern of these ships.
One last point-a ship map on the USS Jenolen's bridge shows that a Sydney Class ship has three decks.
In the movie Generations, the Farrugut shuttle (number 4)is seen approaching and landing on the Enterprise-D primary hull. Number 4 lands parallel to a Class 6 starship shuttlecraft. Number 4 shuttle is twice the length of the class 6 starship shuttlecraft. This would make the length of the Sydney Class transport and shuttlecraft no more than 60 meters.
Why doesn't the Sydney Class land at one of the runabout pads at Deep Space Nine? The warp nacelles add width to the Sydney Class ship. With new dimensions, a Sydney Class ship would not be able to land due to space limitations.
From available evidence, the Sydney Class is a very limited ship. If not provided with warp engines, the Sydney Class ship is an upgraded shuttle with very limited range. This class can be launched from a planetary base (The Undiscovered Country) or from a starship (Generations). When a Sydney Class ship is outfitted with warp engines, the range of the ship is increased. A runabout's speed is less than that of a starship translating to longer periods spent in a ship. This could explain the multiple decks found on the USS Jenolen and the USS Nash. There are sections of the ship which are devoted to the care of the passengers.
Time Line-
2280's USS Sydney is commissioned
2293 Shuttle (NAR-25820)
2294 USS Jenolen (NCC-2010)
2370 USS Nash (NCC-2010-B)
2371 Shuttle (NCC-60597/04)
2375 Last known sighting of a Sydney Class ship ("Chrysalis")

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Er...the only problem being that what the Sydney uses for impulse engines, the shuttle uses for windows. I'd say that throws a bit of a monkey wrench into the idea of them being the same thing...unless I misunderstand what you're driving at.

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"I'll turn everything around and confuse you. I'll fix it so you can't remember what was true."
--
They Might Be Giants

Posted by Lindsly on :

Sol System: Observation noted. If the two ships are that different, could there be two Sidney Class ships-one is a shuttle and the other is a transport? Or could the shuttles that were identified by the encyclopedia as being Sidney Class be actually of an another class? A bridge readout on the Enterprise-D in "Relics" conclusively identified the USS Jenolen as Sydney Class Transport. The shuttles are not conclusively identified as being Sidney Class in the episodes or movies. Only source for this is the Encyclopedias. Based on your observation and this musing, I hereby retract any statements I have made about the Sidney Class transports. Also, I hereby retract any statements I made previous to today about the USS Raven.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I must say, I've never noticed that reference in the Encyclopedia. However, I'd chalk that description up to a mistake.

*looks*

Yeah...it says they were the same, but simple visual evidence suggests they aren't. I wonder if there are any pictures floating around...

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"I'll turn everything around and confuse you. I'll fix it so you can't remember what was true."
--
They Might Be Giants

Posted by Lindsly on :

Sol System: Reference the entry Jenolen, USS in Encyclopedia II. I beiieve you will find the reference that states the shuttle in The Undiscovered Country is of the Sydney Class transport.

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

I don't believe in what is written in the Ency, since the studio models definitely indicate the orbital shuttle from the movie ST6 is a one-deck shuttle of the size of a runabout, but without warp drive:

http://www.users.csbsju.edu/~rsorense/modelcitizen/trekships/shuttlecraft/st5shuttle%20aftq.jpg

http://www.users.csbsju.edu/~rsorense/modelcitizen/trekships/shuttlecraft/st5shuttle%20keel.jpg

The Sydney/Jenolen/Nash is a big ship with many decks, exactly the same warp nacelles as the Constitution, a Constitution-like bridge and Miranda-like sensor panel. It's a very consistent design, despite the fact it is a kitbash:

http://www.users.csbsju.edu/~rsorense/modelcitizen/trekships/misc/jenolin.jpg

http://www.users.csbsju.edu/~rsorense/modelcitizen/trekships/misc/jenolan.jpg

http://members.aol.com/IDICPage/GemKirk60.html

There's not the slightest doubt the ships have considerably different sizes (30m - 230m). You see that the model was heavily modified to portray a much larger ship. I'm not sure about the blue shuttle in Generations, maybe they had another studio model of the orbital shuttle, maybe they did actually use the Sydney, but modified it to be a small ship again.

The error in the Encyclopedia might be attributed to the fact that the model was a small shuttle at first, and the author (Okuda) did not have a close look at the modified version.

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

Which ep was the supposed 'Nash' supposed to be in? And what do we do about the registry? NCC-2010-B doesn't work...

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Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

I read that the Jenol(e,i,a)n? was first labeled as "Nash". It could have been renamed after "Relics" to portray the DS9 ship as well, if there weren't the obvious registry conflict. The registry of the Nash is arranged in a completely different way and not just a modification. They could have taken *any* other number than 2010-B and it would have been o.k. I don't think anyone can be so stupid. To me the Nash labeling looks preliminary and doesn't match the Starfleet font and size.

Posted by Lindsly on :

In an issue of Cinefantesque (where the second year of DS9 is reviewed), the photo of the USS Nash, the same one as taken from the Model Citizens Web site, is identified as the model in the episode "Playing God". The modelmakers rename the USS Jenolin to USS Nash because "...there was no name in the script...". The name is said to be taken from the name of an individual in production. The USS Nash would later feature in other DS9 episodes including "Trials and Tribble-ations". Aft section is shown close-up. The close-up shows four letters-N A S H. The registry I believe was never to be shown and that may account for the error. Is this error canonical? You decide.

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

Maybe the NCC-2010-B is some kind of in-joke.

Posted by Federation Shipmaster (Member # 15) on :

Let's not get into a ship length debate here.

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

If the Nash actually appeared at DS9, I should include the ship to my list. However, I can't accept the registry. There must be some point where evident nonsense is filtered out.