Looked at the canon site one of the sites which Okuda used to write the encyclopedia. It finally confirmed a few things
1. USS Yamaguchi finally recognized! 2. The Galaxy Class USS Trinculo NCC-71867 in Sacrafice of the angels. 3. Nebula Class USS Leeds NCC-70352 in Sacrafice of the Angels 4. USS Gander confirmed. It's not Ghanda or Ganda 5. The tug in A time to stand is identified as USS Curry NCC-45617. Nothing about "Shelly" mentioned 6. Ships I personnaly don't know about: USS Galice, USS Hispaniola in DS9 "Whispers" 7. Whorfin Class is Federation used NCC 1024
Any comments on these revelations?
------------------ "Execute" Captain Styles USS Excelsior (ST III) Hey I'm sick of "Engage"
[This message was edited by Brown_supahero on April 20, 1999.]
[This message was edited by Brown_supahero on April 21, 1999.]
Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :
Uh, yeah, your link doesn't work....hehehhe.
------------------ Jeff Raven - Having more fun than any human being should be allowed to have
Posted by Brown_supahero (Member # 83) on :
Try it now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
------------------ "Execute" Captain Styles USS Excelsior (ST III) Hey I'm sick of "Engage"
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Creighton and Bell do fine work, and their ship list is extremely useful, but I don't know if I'd describe it as canon, beyond the fact that it contains ships seen onscreen. They, like us, are just careful viewers with a good eye.
Anyway, I'm curious about the following things:
2.) The Trinculo is a Galaxy model taken by Okuda to a few conventions. Other than that, I have no idea where it appeared onscreen, if it did at all. It seems unlikely that the model was filmed for SofA, which was, as far as I knew, all CGI. Am I way off here? Was the Trinculo in fact in SofA, and my history of the model off?
3.) I've heard this one before too, though not with a registry number. Any confirmation?
5.) The name isn't new, but the registry is.
6.) Those are, as Frank recently informed me, from a computer display in the episode.
------------------ "I'm sick, like Nixon was sick, my defeated heart keeps beating on. I won't die, like Chucky won't die." -- They Might Be Giants
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
I agree with Sol System. I contacted D. J. Creighton some time ago, and asked him about his sources. He replied that he mainly watches the episodes very closely.
*Spock speak* Fascinating. *Tuvok speak* His recent additions are reminiscent. He seems to have the same source as I do (and maybe Frank does have) recently, that is an individual who provides us with lots of information, mostly reliable, from very close examination of episodes and other sources. Thanks, C.! Maybe if he was not contacted personally this time Joe Creighton even copied from our pages, while it's usually the other way round. Anyway, I would like to thank Joe Creighton too, for his good work over a long time.
The USS Strain, apparently, not the USS Strata in DS9 "Field of Fire?!" Like hell that screen said 'Strain!'
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
I agree, that list contains mostly correct info, but not all the time. Remember the Intrepid registry...
1. The Yamaguchi was in "Emissary" (DS9). 2. This might have been the ship we saw that had a registry. 3. This might be the ship at the end. 4. This weekend I will make a sound file making the case that Ezri just has a Boston accent. 5. It's NCC-4xxxx. The Shelley name is non-canon. 6. From a display. 7. The Whorfin doesn't have to be a class ship.
BTW, Lindsly originally submitted 5 and 6 to me, so maybe he sent the same info to Creighton.
Strain. Yeah, right. LOL. Next thing we know, they'll be naming ships after little towns in Montana... (Seriously, it was Strata)
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Quintesson: "You are the Autobot named Kup. You are Cybertron's chief of security." Kup: "Nah, my name's Teaspoon, and I'm Cybertron's chief dishwasher."
Posted by Galen (Member # 72) on :
Chakotay's ship--an Antares class. I don't think so. "Torres, go repair that baffle plate on the atomic energy pile or we will blow up."
------------------ "Victory is Life!"
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
Ack. Apparently Creighton believes the nonsense spouted in Mosaic, one of the Trek novels.
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Quintesson: "You are the Autobot named Kup. You are Cybertron's chief of security." Kup: "Nah, my name's Teaspoon, and I'm Cybertron's chief dishwasher."
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
The name "Shelley" was never anything close to canon. It's just something invented by a fan that everyone started using.
------------------ "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." -George Orwell's Animal Farm
Posted by Captain Stark (Member # 70) on :
I have seen this list before and I used it to inspire myself to create my own ship list (I felt his was lacking but somewhat accurate from observations). My question is where did you hear that this was "cannon" and where did you hear that Okuda used it to write the Encyclopedia?
------------------ -=/\=- Captain Stark http://beam.to/readyroom
"The man on the top walks a lonely path. The chain of command is often a noose." Dr. Leonard McCoy --Obsession, Stardate: 3619.2
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
Cannon = big gun Canon = official, authoritative material
As far as Okuda using DJC's ship lists... that's common knowledge, and check out the Ency-II acknowledgements to see his name in there. It's not that DJC's list is "canon," or even absoutely accurate. it's just that he does keep it up to date and keeps track of the latest ships, so Okuda doesn't have to do quite as much research.
------------------ -=Ryan McReynolds=-
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Ryan, I looked for his name before I posted, and couldn't seem to find it anywhere in the acknowledgement section. Perhaps it's time for a trip to the eye doctor...
Though there is a special thanks to one "Ford Prefect", among others. Fascinating.
Aha, wait! I see it. Now that I think about it, I'm sure someone pointed that out to me long ago.
------------------ "I'm sick, like Nixon was sick, my defeated heart keeps beating on. I won't die, like Chucky won't die." -- They Might Be Giants
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
I don't know what is supposed to be more canon about "Mosaic" and "Pathways" than about other novels. Fortunately, he doesn't include the Shatner stuff.
The argument goes that since Jeri Taylor, former producer and creator of Voyager, wrote the books, they enjoy the same level of canon that, say, the tech. manuals do. Some things from those books (or at least from Mosaic) have shown up onscreen.
However, I don't agree with that. Both of the books contain some pretty odd errors that I don't want to take into account. (The Antares class Maquis raider, certain parts of Tuvok's backstory, etc.) Having said this, I still think I'd recommend Pathways, just because I thought it was a good book.
------------------ "I'm sick, like Nixon was sick, my defeated heart keeps beating on. I won't die, like Chucky won't die." -- They Might Be Giants
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Agreed, Pathways was a very good bock - I actually couldn't put it down - reading Mosaic at the moment - its getting good...
------------------ The house is falling down, 'cause of my loose tounge.
Posted by Montgomery (Member # 23) on :
How annoying that Okuda likes to draw on merely ONE arbitrary website for info. Why doesn't he ask the experts....US?!
I'll define "canon" as suits my whimsy! TV, fair enough. Tech manuals, unless they contradict or make no sense. Novels, no way! Okuda-endorsed websites, In his dreams...
------------------ "I AM THE SPIDER!!!!" - Vic Reeves
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
If I were Okuda I would also choose D. J. Creighton's site as main source. After all, he has the largest number of original on-screen sightings listed, and this is what eventually counts. And so far he mostly had a strict definition of what is included to his list. There are, however, those frequent flaws, where it would have been better to be a bit more flexible and just deny or ignore contradicting or questionable things like the Antares class raider . As I said above, lately he seems to accept more information from third parties as well.
Posted by Jim Phelps (Member # 102) on :
As far as the novels by Jeri Taylor are concerned, there is no reason to give them less consideration than we would to the official tech manuals. After all, there exists an equal (if not higher) likelyhood that these sources will be used by the writers on the show.
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
Actually, I would put Taylor's books on the same level as Sternbach's newsgroup postings etc. It's interesting info, and does come from people who work or worked on the show, but it was never actually on screen and so it's irrelevant.
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Quintesson: "You are the Autobot named Kup. You are Cybertron's chief of security." Kup: "Nah, my name's Teaspoon, and I'm Cybertron's chief dishwasher."
Posted by Trinculo on :
I do not like J. Creighton's web site. Bernd says that J. Creighton is a careful observer of the episodes. I disagree. First, he includes ships that never existed- -the USS Discovery ("Squire of Gothos") -the Copernicus ("The Galileo Seven") How do I know these ships never existed? I have seen the episodes repeatedly and I have read the adaptions of both episodes written in the 1960's. - Karemma ("Starship Down") There is no Karemma. I base my conclusion on the episode and the close captioning. (I know the close captioning can be in error-the USS Gander fiasco. However, if you understand the process behind close captioning, this isn't really an issue.) Second, he ignores the spoken mentions of ships. Two examples- Shuttlepod 1 ("Devil's Due") USS Saratoga ("Wrongs Darker Then Death or Night") For those who didn't catch the reference, you have no excuse. The ship was 'captured' in the dialogue and the closed captioning. Thirdly, even worse since Mr. Okuda uses his site, he fails to include entries from the encyclopedia Two examples- Galileo ("All Good Things...") Hawking (Generations)
His site is not to update. Where are the ships from the DS9 TM in his list of Federation ships?
Last, I believe that he gets lost in the counting of starships. Since so much of Star Trek is reshot footage, for J. Creighton counting the number of starships, is like a gardener counting the same number of plants in a flower bed over and over.
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
The Discovery is the result of a misspoken line, perptuated by stubborn people, like TSN.
The Karemma is the race of the Dominion merchants that were in that episode.
I can't find the new Saratoga. Where is it in the ep?
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Quintesson: "You are the Autobot named Kup. You are Cybertron's chief of security." Kup: "Nah, my name's Teaspoon, and I'm Cybertron's chief dishwasher."
Posted by Trinculo on :
The episode begins. In Quark's Bar, Major Kira Nerys and Jadzia Daz are talking. Major Kira Nerys mentions that a week after her birthday, the USS Saratoga is due to arrive at the station. Does this help Frank?
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
Yes. I'll check the episode later.
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Quintesson: "You are the Autobot named Kup. You are Cybertron's chief of security." Kup: "Nah, my name's Teaspoon, and I'm Cybertron's chief dishwasher."
Posted by Brown_supahero (Member # 83) on :
Got to admit though.... even with it's flaws, it is a pretty good site!
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
I know I have heard the shuttlecraft Copernicus mentioned in at LEAST one TOS episode, so it does exist. I don't quite recall if it was in "Galileo Seven," and am unwilling at 11:15 PM to dig out my tape of the SF Channel uncut edition and find out for sure.
They say "The Karrema" a lot when in that episode, and it's impossible to be certain whether they are always referring to the political body, or sometimes to the ship name. Since many nations have named ships after their own country, (isn't there - or hasn't there been - a USS United States?) this cannot be completely discounted as a possibility.
Still, that's quibbling.
------------------ *I only SEEM Normal*
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
Trinculo: Lately, I have the impression that actually you do watch the episodes most closely. However, taking into account that D. J. Creighton maintains and updates his list for a long time and that obviously all references are checked by himself, there is some degree of reliability. This, however, includes a certain portion of stubbornness.
The Discovery: I'm not sure, I don't have a tape of it.
One other point-when I was younger, i read the sanhedrin (a talmudic text). I learned a very valuable lesson-every word is important. when i watch an episode or film, i listen to every word. another point-a good list maker is flexible. in my list of ships, i consider all possible options. i never close my mind to suggestions. however, i do find that obsessing over technical matters, like soyuz class phasers or kit bash ships, borders on unhealthiness. i do have my limit and i know when to back off, do something else. how many of you can say that?
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
Close watching and close listening is essential, considering the episodes are the primary canon sources. But please read what this forum is about: Trek Tech. Real technology and Treknology, in my opinion, can be an additional criterium, even if a discussion is only about ship names and numbers. This is not to make your observations useless, but to give them some (potential) background. And I think it's not as obsessive as you fear.
Posted by Trinculo on :
I am very concrete-i can understand real technology. the technology of trek shifts like the sands of the sahara-to the whims of the producers and writers, and star trek followers become needlessly concerned about the twisting of the sand. Why does the sand move this way and not this way? The simple answer is the wind. however, there are star trek followers who will not accept this explanation. the wind is discounted and other ideas are thrown forth. in another thread, bernd, you spoke of mike wong. this is a very strong point from mike wong-star trek followers will attempt to explain everything in star trek. you can't for any ideas you have now will be blown away with the next thrust of the wind. the most important lesson i am learning from this forum is to avoid developing hypothesises about any aspect of star trek. when i say an opinion, my opinion is judged by the "experts" of the forum to be naive, misunderstanding of star trek, and not fully comprehending the mysteriesa and wonders of star trek. i may be naive, i may have bad memory, i may not have all the source material; however, i have the wisdom to admit "i don't know" and move on. this is my battle line-cross the battleline and we are at war.
[This message was edited by Trinculo on April 22, 1999.]
Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :
Did anyone actually understand that? I sort of got lost with all that wind stuff...
------------------ -->Identity Crisis<--
Posted by ZeR0 on :
SNIP
Keep insulting people, and I'll ban you. This is your final warning.
Regards
Daryus
[This message was edited by Daryus Aden on April 24, 1999.]
Posted by Trinculo on :
Zero: I accept that I am irrelevant and stupid. I am the farmer in the fields and the members of the forum are the university students in the city. Do I need to be correct? Does it matter? No on both accounts.
Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :
Creighton states that there were 2 Negh'Var type ships in "Apocalypse Rising". Can anyone confirm this?? I can't find them myself.
------------------ "What you leave behind is not as important as how you've lived."
- Jean Luc Picard, 'Star Trek: Generations'
Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :
This is why we need a moderator here. . .
ZeRO: watch it. You're a relative newbie here, so don't go calling others irrelevant or stupid. Only the old hands are allowed to do that.
Trinculo: Lighten up. Or rather, clam up, watch, listen and learn. You'll soon figure it all out. Whenever you think you have something to add, then do so. Just. . . learn to capitalise and punctuate, OK? 8)
As regards the Negh'Vars, I don't recall any, but then there were all sorts of ships around that station or asteroid or whatever it was. I didn't pay much attention because I'm not that interested in Klingon ships.
Posted by CaptSershek on :
I agree with The First One totally. We need a moderator very badly. Personally, I nominate either Bernd, Identity Crisis, Frank or Pedro. I base my nominations on their opinions on this forum and their websites (I also use J. D. Creighton's site as a reference) which have been more than helpful in my ever expanding Starfleet Starship List.
Trinculo: First off, welcome to the forums. Secondly, everyone's opinions here are nessesary to give a different perspective on the same information. You, like Fabrux, appear to have this incredible eagle eyes for which I am envious. Also, do not take this so seriously, I respect your passion for the subjects at hand, but take it easy.
Zero: I thought your remark was uncalled for. Unless I am wrong, All opinions here are welcome, whether they are right or wrong. I believe that is the purpose of a forum.
Thanks or listening.
------------------ Remember when we used to be explorers? - Capt. Jean-Luc Picard - Star Trek Insurrection
Posted by Federation Shipmaster (Member # 15) on :
Oooh! Oooh! Pick me!
------------------ What bloke invented signatures?
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
The mod situation is being taken care of. It's not necessarily under control, but...
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Quintesson: "You are the Autobot named Kup. You are Cybertron's chief of security." Kup: "Nah, my name's Teaspoon, and I'm Cybertron's chief dishwasher."
Posted by Tachy on :
this place is starting to smell like 'Apocalypse rising' to me...
------------------ The SCIFI-ART.COM forums: http://forums.scifi-art.com - 2 months of existence - already 180+ users - 450 000 hits in 1.5 months - 2D ships - 3D ships - Scale & Plastic models - 3D tech support ( MAX, Lightwave,Truespace,...) - Sex, Drugs & Rock'n'roll
Posted by Tachy on :
sorry, but Pedro is mine now
------------------ The SCIFI-ART.COM forums: http://forums.scifi-art.com - 2 months of existence - already 180+ users - 450 000 hits in 1.5 months - 2D ships - 3D ships - Scale & Plastic models - 3D tech support ( MAX, Lightwave,Truespace,...) - Sex, Drugs & Rock'n'roll
Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :
The problem of the offending post has been taken care of. Damn these time lags *L*. There should be a Mod assigned to this forum next week. Until then we'll just have to hope either CC or I see it. If anyone does see this kind of post, mail/icq one of us. (Whoever is online! *L*).
------------------ 'Sir, you've been ordered not to take Polermo'
'Ring General HQ, ask them if they want me to give it back'.
[This message was edited by Daryus Aden on April 24, 1999.]
Posted by Tachy on :
Aye Frog !
------------------ The SCIFI-ART.COM forums: http://forums.scifi-art.com - 2 months of existence - already 180+ users - 450 000 hits in 1.5 months - 2D ships - 3D ships - Scale & Plastic models - 3D tech support ( MAX, Lightwave,Truespace,...) - Sex, Drugs & Rock'n'roll
Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :
Ya? *Slaps Tachy about with a wet kipper*.
------------------ 'Sir, you've been ordered not to take Polermo'
'Ring General HQ, ask them if they want me to give it back'.
Posted by Federation Shipmaster (Member # 15) on :
Actually, the events in Mosaic and Pathways are official, not suff like the dialogue and all.
------------------ What bloke invented signatures?
(Seriously, it was Strata)