As we all know, there's a lot of stuff we don't agree about (gee, what a revelation ). Now, a lot of these things probably won't be resolved any time soon, due to differing viewpoints. My SFSD page represents, well, my own views, because I think they're the right ones. However, I've decided to do some sort of sub-page which would include everything we don't agree on, hopefully making everyone happy and lessening the number of complaints/emails I get saying "No, that's not right, it's really supposed to be..." This page would be self-contained, but linked to where appropriate from the other various pages.
Both Bernd and IdCrisis have something like what I'm proposing, although I'd like mine to be more comprehensive and represent everyone's opinion on the matter. In fact, I think it would be great if, once we have everything sorted out, people would write up something about each topic/problem themselves. TSN could ramble on about the Yamato's registry and City of New Orleans, Tom can provide all his evidence that the little attack-fighters are 35m, etc., and it would all be included and credited accordingly.
However, before this happens, we need a list of all this stuff. I'm talking about everything from long-standing debates like the Melbourne registry and Apollo-class design to recent things like the Ganda/er.
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Ultra Magnus: "I know you're bored, Rodimus, but with the mantle of leadership comes obligations." Rodimus Prime: "I don't suppose I could interest you in a used mantle?"
Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :
Oh, goody. Can I do "Why there isn't an Excelsior-class USS Lexington?"
Others. . . and one I've been wondering about recently: Can the name of a class ship be used again? Evidence:
- The USS Constitution not having the lowest registry of all Constitution class ships. . . - A mention of a USS Excelsior in DS9. . . - The Yeager class and the Sabre-class USS Yeager. . .
Why is it important with so few examples? Because it's (to me) one of the most valid reasons why they haven't had an Enterprise-class.
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
Well, of course a class ship's name can be used again...I'd be surprised if anyone were to disagree, actually.
I was thinking of the Lexington, in fact...it's pretty straightforward, and if you were to write something up, it would be appreciated.
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Ultra Magnus: "I know you're bored, Rodimus, but with the mantle of leadership comes obligations." Rodimus Prime: "I don't suppose I could interest you in a used mantle?"
[This message was edited by The Shadow on April 24, 1999.]
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
Hey Frank, would I be able to put my U.S.S. Trial theory on there too? I have some other stuff which I could probably contribute, once I think of it.
"The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am." -Darth Vader, Return of the Jedi "Everything is proceeding as I have forseen." -Emperor Palpatine, Return of the Jedi
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
Certainly! Er, what exactly is your USS Trial theory?
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Ultra Magnus: "I know you're bored, Rodimus, but with the mantle of leadership comes obligations." Rodimus Prime: "I don't suppose I could interest you in a used mantle?"
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
Ok. My USS Trial theory is that there is an Excelsior-class refit ship named USS Trial NX-2022. Seeing as where there were a lot of changes made to the basic Excelsior spaceframe, I cojectured that they built a testbed first, hence the NX- registry.
"The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am." -Darth Vader, Return of the Jedi "Everything is proceeding as I have forseen." -Emperor Palpatine, Return of the Jedi
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
Er...what's the evidence for this, though?
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Ultra Magnus: "I know you're bored, Rodimus, but with the mantle of leadership comes obligations." Rodimus Prime: "I don't suppose I could interest you in a used mantle?"
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
Of course. I should have known. You always need proof or evidence, Frank. I don't have any evidence. It's simply a theory that has yet to be proven or disproven.
"The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am." -Darth Vader, Return of the Jedi "Everything is proceeding as I have forseen." -Emperor Palpatine, Return of the Jedi
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
Well, the whole point of this was to explain topics that have contradicting or ambiguous evidence, not no evidence. I thought the Trial's registry was given somewhere or something.
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Ultra Magnus: "I know you're bored, Rodimus, but with the mantle of leadership comes obligations." Rodimus Prime: "I don't suppose I could interest you in a used mantle?"
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
Okay, here are a few topics (certainly not all of them, though). We know the issues surrounding many of these, but they deserve explanations for those not familiar with them:
- Apollo design - Yamato registry (TSN) - New Orleans-class/City of New Orleans-class (TSN) - 1700 Constitution: class ship? (TSN) - Melbourne registry - Curry/Shelley registry - Shenandoah registry - Raman registry - Ganda/er spelling - Br*ttain spelling - Jenol*n spelling - Bozeman: still in use? - Constellation: still in use? - Excelsior: still in use? - Carolina: class? - Mayflower: exists? - Discovery: exists? - Trial: exists? - Studio models (Leeds/Trinculo/Valkyrie)
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Ultra Magnus: "I know you're bored, Rodimus, but with the mantle of leadership comes obligations." Rodimus Prime: "I don't suppose I could interest you in a used mantle?"
Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :
A! Fill all the astericks with an A! Just keep it as Gander.
------------------ "Audaces fortuna juvat." "Fortune favours the bold."
[This message was edited by Elim Garak on April 24, 1999.]
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
But, Elim, not everyone agrees with you, which is the whole point of the exercise.
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Ultra Magnus: "I know you're bored, Rodimus, but with the mantle of leadership comes obligations." Rodimus Prime: "I don't suppose I could interest you in a used mantle?"
Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :
*knows*
*likes to be difficult every once in a while*
But there is no way to prove any of this short of asking someone involved with the show or by getting an answer from... *shudders* Stipes.
*at the thought, goes into convulsions*
------------------ "Audaces fortuna juvat." "Fortune favours the bold."
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
Well, erm, Stipes etc. tend to be wrong, a lot.
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Ultra Magnus: "I know you're bored, Rodimus, but with the mantle of leadership comes obligations." Rodimus Prime: "I don't suppose I could interest you in a used mantle?"
Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :
Exactly. But they could easily get some of the stuff right... like a registry. Someone reliable, that is. Not Stipes!
------------------ "Audaces fortuna juvat." "Fortune favours the bold."
Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :
Constellation! There's another one! You see? Everyone finds it easier to think it's the class ship still in use rather than a new ship of a different class. . . THAT is what I mean.
Posted by Trinculo on :
Questions- What is the defining line between class and variant?
What is the line between a severly damaged and a destroyed ship?
What the definition of "starship configuration" in the episode "The Doomsday Machine"?
Posted by Trinculo on :
A point of argument- What is canonical and what is not canonical? And how much reliablity and accuracy can be given to the given material?
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
If a ship is similar, but not the same, as the class ship, it's a variant.
Uh, if it's in many pieces, and there's no longer a piece significantly larger than the others, it's destroyed.
No idea; haven't seen that ep in a while.
The shows, movies, etc. are canon. The tech books etc. are canon unless contradicted. Everything else isn't.
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Ultra Magnus: "I know you're bored, Rodimus, but with the mantle of leadership comes obligations." Rodimus Prime: "I don't suppose I could interest you in a used mantle?"
Posted by Warped1701 (Member # 40) on :
I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned the infamous Defiant length argument yet.
------------------ "Angels and Ministers of Grace, defend us" -Hamlet, Act I, Scene IV
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I feel that with the Sydney Class Jenol*n - that it is the spelling of the Jenol*n caves - after which the person who did the model named it - (I can't remember the spelling correctly - Daryus??)
anyway - maybe a naming system for sydney class ships could be Names from in and Around Sydney...
------------------ The house is falling down, 'cause of my loose tounge.
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
Well, the caves are spelled Jenolan, but the model was labelled Jenolin.
Warped: That one is too obvious to mention.
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Ultra Magnus: "I know you're bored, Rodimus, but with the mantle of leadership comes obligations." Rodimus Prime: "I don't suppose I could interest you in a used mantle?"
Posted by deadcujo (Member # 13) on :
I have evidence proving the Defiant is really a 90m Ferengi shuttle.
------------------ The Unknown Vulcan
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
S'more...
-Name/Registry of Hanson's Excelsior (TBoBW) -Age of Miranda -Age of Oberth -The issue of whether models can represent ships of differing size (the K'Vort/B'rel thing) -Previous lives of Enterprise-A -USS Intrepid in 'Force of Nature' -Peregrine length/identification as Attack Fighters
------------------ "......" �������������-The Breen at Internment Camp 371
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
Excellent, Tom! Keep them coming...
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Ultra Magnus: "I know you're bored, Rodimus, but with the mantle of leadership comes obligations." Rodimus Prime: "I don't suppose I could interest you in a used mantle?"
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Hmm.
There isn't, or shouldn't be, any argument about some of these things.
The Peregrines for instance. All the evidence supports Tom, and as far as I know we all agreed with him long ago.
------------------ "It was sweet, like lead paint's sweet, but the aftereffects left me paralyzed." -- They Might Be Giants
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
Which aspects of the Peregrine/fighters are you talking about? And even if we all agree, we still need to explain things...
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Ultra Magnus: "I know you're bored, Rodimus, but with the mantle of leadership comes obligations." Rodimus Prime: "I don't suppose I could interest you in a used mantle?"
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Actually the Peregrines are very nearly in unanimous agreement amongst the old UP folks. The issue is merely length, and whether or not they really are Peregrines...
------------------ "......" �������������-The Breen at Internment Camp 371
Posted by Federation Shipmaster (Member # 15) on :
1701: Don't go there.
-Different class names: i.e. Miranda, Avenger, Reliant, etc.
-Use of non-canon to support canon evidence
-Why my ship list is, and always will be the best
------------------ What bloke invented signatures?
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
FSM:
1) Everybody (except you?) seems to agree on what's a Miranda.
2) The non-canon backup is a good point. I think we all know Frank, Tim's and my views on this matter. But definitely worth a mention.
3) No comment.
------------------ "......" �������������-The Breen at Internment Camp 371
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
how about whether the Mirandas and the Oberths seen in TSFS were refits of earlier ships - ie TOS versions a la the Constitution class
also when the Romulans got warp
------------------ The house is falling down, 'cause of my loose tounge.
[This message was edited by AndrewR on April 26, 1999.]
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
I was actually planning to put up a page similar to what Frank suggested, presenting all imfamous problems like the Defiant size. I think Frank will be faster, though. The page setup could look like this: - Problem: The starship **** [image link] is supposed to be ****, however, this is in contradiction to ****. - Evidence: [heavy quoting, images] - Solution #1: [description]. This is supported by the individuals a [external link], b, and c. - Solution #2: ... supported by d and e. - Personal solution: ...
There could be several links to my own pages as well as to other websites with different arguments, after all we're not working against each other.
Frank and The_Tom have already given a number of good suggestions. Maybe we should open some threads each of which discusses exactly one of the problems or all of them in a questionnaire. We should try not to throw in anything else this time, so it can serve as a basis for Frank's (or another individual's) web page.
Well, in many cases, we don't necessarily want a solution, just an explanation of the problem. It really depends on the issue, though.
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Ultra Magnus: "I know you're bored, Rodimus, but with the mantle of leadership comes obligations." Rodimus Prime: "I don't suppose I could interest you in a used mantle?"
Posted by Jim Phelps (Member # 102) on :
Well the Defiant thing really depends on whether we put the show or the intentions of the producers on the first place of ranking.
Boris
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
Exactly - that's what needs to be explained.
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Ultra Magnus: "I know you're bored, Rodimus, but with the mantle of leadership comes obligations." Rodimus Prime: "I don't suppose I could interest you in a used mantle?"
Posted by bear (Member # 124) on :
Theory...
Reason for the lack of an Enterprise Class is because we have already had one...
Excelsior variant II . . . . . . . Runs for cover with his brain bucket on.... . . . Remember theory
Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :
I'm looking forward to this page, and the opportunity to hack it apart *L*.
Seriously though, while we may disagree with Frank his work tends to be very thorough and well thought out.
------------------ 'Sir, you've been ordered not to take Polermo'
'Ring General HQ, ask them if they want me to give it back'.
Posted by Captain Stark (Member # 70) on :
How about is the USS Nash registry a valid registry? I seem to recall that debate just not to long ago.
(I may be repeating some)
Do all class ships still have NX registries?
Conflicting on screen references? (I know there is a reference from Second Chances but I don't have my notes here).
Does use of FASA material or Franz Joseph material or Shane Johnson material validate the information that was used onscreen, or listed elsewhere in the book?
Do refrences to Animated Series validate information from that source?
I'll post more when I bring my ship list tommorrow to look over while posting.
------------------ -=/\=- Captain Stark http://beam.to/readyroom
"The man on the top walks a lonely path. The chain of command is often a noose." Dr. Leonard McCoy --Obsession, Stardate: 3619.2
Posted by Galen (Member # 72) on :
Just off the top of my head: Theories behind how Starfleet assigns registries, in particular why the Prometheus has such a low one. Another would be to compile a list of ships that have more than one registry like the Ahwahnee.
------------------ "Victory is Life!"
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
Speaking of registries, we should also talk about the low-registry ships like the Akira that still appear to be new. (After all, the Phoenix, NCC-65420, was definitively commissioned right before the Enterprise...
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Rodimus Prime: "No more jokes, Springer. Cybertron's in deadly danger. We're heading back there. Now." Springer: "Yes sir, Mister Leader, sir."
Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :
. . . and don't forget the meanings of USS, NCC, NAR etc. . .
Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :
This will be one doozie!
------------------ Quark: "Lesson number one: No one involved in extra-legal activity considers himself nefarious." (DS9: "The Sound of Her Voice")
Posted by Brown_supahero (Member # 83) on :
My theory on Assigned registry numbers
0-29999 These were assigned linearly ( when they were commissioned they were given one)
30000-79999 They were assigned by Construction Contract and place of construction.
ie USS Yamato NCC 71807 7 Denotes it was constructed at Utopia Planita rest of the numbers indicate the construction contract at the place
------------------ "Execute" Captain Styles USS Excelsior (ST III) Hey I'm sick of "Engage"
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
Rather impossible, actually. Examples to contradict: USS Defiant NX-74205, built at Antares USS Voyager NCC-74656, built at Earth Station McKinley USS Enterprise NCC-1701-E, built at San Francisco
The same would probably go for all the other ships from 3xxxx and up, for all ships for that matter
------------------ "The one, the only, THE 359!"
[This message was edited by The359 on April 27, 1999.]
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I think most of you know what I think by now... :-)
------------------ "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." -George Orwell's Animal Farm
Posted by Trinculo on :
There is no question in my opinion on the exact number of the Shenandoah-73024. The Rio Grande and the Gander both had the registry 73024. Registry numbers on hull of Danube Class Runabout- 72452 1993 to 1998 (this includes the ship in "Timescape") 72936 1998 73024 1998 to present
[This message was edited by Trinculo on April 27, 1999.]
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I reckon the registries are LINEAR. as for annoying things like Akira and Prometheus low registries - but looking as new in design as the Sovereign class, basically it was given this registry when it began construction - and its has just taken a bloody long time for it to be commissioned - maybe cause of a tech problem along the way, making them abandon its production - or it just took longer to build. With the Akira's etc - they were just recently finished so - even though they were started being built a while ago - they have been given the latest design - i.e. escape pods etc.
------------------ The house is falling down, 'cause of my loose tounge.
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
There seem to be two different types of problems, when I try to analyse them:
1) General What books are canon? What about mis-spelling or mispronouncing? Are registries strictly chronological? Designer's intention vs. VFX size. Are all labeled models canon, although they could not be identified on screen?
2) Specific Apollo design, Defiant size, BoP size(s), and many more...
This would make two pages, and the general page could anticipate many aspects of the specific page, so there would be no redundancy.
Another possible arrangement could be one page for ship specs and lengths and one for ship names and numbers.
Yet another possibility is to list the ship by names, irrespective of the obvious redunancies. This would be some kind of "Inconsistency Encyclopedia".
Posted by Jim Phelps (Member # 102) on :
1) To address the question of which books are canon: this really is a question for the writers of the show, and from what we can read in Ron Moore's AOL postings, the answer is something to the effect of "read the line in the books about not straitjacketing the writers".
Still, the books are influential in the sense that they are a) fairly accessible and b) written by the folks who answer their questions. Thus the answer that seems to work best is, use them to flesh out the onscreen info but don't treat the stuff as gospel.
Boris
Posted by Federation Shipmaster (Member # 15) on :
Bear: I call the refit Excelior Enterprise (II) becauseI refer to the refit Constittuion as Enterprise. It works out.
------------------ What bloke invented signatures?
Posted by Trinculo on :
1. USS Lexington NCC-14427 Though I believe that there is no Excelsior Class Starship in operation in 2370, I do believe that there may have been an Excelsior Class starship with this registry in the early 24th century. And that is why I include this ship in my list. 2. USS Constitution NCC-1700 The Constitution Class starship could be similar to the Ohio (Trident) Class submarine in operation in the US Navy. Both the Ohio and the Trident are variants of a basic design. I know from watching the episodes that there are at least two variants of the Constitution Class-USS Enterprise type and USS Constellation type. The USS Constellation's impulse drive is of a different configuration-the "black" areas that are visible on the USS Enterprise's impulse drive are missing. 3. USS Excelsior NCC-2000 The only mention of the USS Excelsior in the DS9 series has been by "Excelsior Class starship" in the episode "Paradise Lost". Since the VFX people don't always rename ships, the scenes of the Excelsior Class starship in the TNG series to the middle of the sixth year (use of the USS Melbourne)has been a reuse of the USS Excelsior NX-2000 (NCC-2000) without a registry change. A few episodes show the underside briefly-the registry is that of the USS Excelsior (Encounter at Farpoint; The Offspring; The Drumhead). In the last two episodes mentioned, could this be a canonical sighting of the USS Excelsior or something else? 4. USS Yeager (Yeager Class) The Yeager Class appeared in 2374, some two months after the Battle of the Earth in 2373. It is possible that a "mashed" (my description for kitbashed ships) ship was named USS Yeager. 5. Apollo Class Facts-T'Pau is used by Vulcan civilians in the equivalent of the Vulcan Merchant Marines, is retired on SD 41344.20, and its registry is NSP-17938. All information comes from the okudagram in "Unification, Part 1". There is no mention of class. 6. USS Yamato How could Commander Riker read the registry of the USS Yamato in "Where Silence Has Lease"? The dorsal of the saucer is not visible. By the way, I do not accept the registry NCC-1305-E. 7. New Orleans Class/City of New Orleans Class I have seen an Okudagram from the fourth year. The class of the USS Thomas Paine is identified as New Orleans Class. 8. USS Melbourne NCC-62043 I find no argument with the registry of this ship. There is a lack of information regarding registries. Further, the former USS Melbourne in the BOBW 2 I accept as an unidentified Nebula Class starship. 9. USS Curry/USS Shelly I do believe this ship is an established class of starship. In my opinion, she and her sister ships were first employed in the late twenty-third century. I like the design. 10. USS Shenandoah NCC-73024 See my earlier comments. 11. USS Raman NCC-29487 This is the registry I accept. It is on an okudagram in the episode. Episode evidence rules out official evidence. 12. USS Gander I accept this spelling. 13, USS Brattain NCC-21166 I accept this spelling. Brattain is named after an American scientist-Walter Houser Brattain, b. 1902, Amer. physicist (Nobel, 1956). This follows the spelling of other known Federation starships. 14. USS Jenolan NCC-2010 I accept this spelling. 15. USS Bozeman NCC-1941 I do believe this ship is operational in 2373. 16. USS Carolina NCC-160 There are two debates about this ship-the registry and the class? I accept the registry NCC-160 as opposed to NCC-235 for no particular reason. As for class, I follow the same procedure as I do for the USS Lexington NCC-14427. This ship may have been a Daedalus Class in the late twenty-first century, then a different class in the next century. 17. USS Mayflower There are two possible explanations-the name of a ship or the name of a company. The crate label could be the insignia of a ship (like the US Navy ships). However, I have never seen since the original, ships of Starfleet having personnal insignias. 18. USS Discovery This ship I believe doesn't exist. 19. USS Trial Outside of the Official Star Trek Web site, there is mention of this ship. I therefore ignore this ship until canonical evidence supports the existence of such ship. 20. Studio models (Leeds/Trinculo/Valiant/Valkyrie) I view these models as I do the models for Star Wars that are at exhibits. These models are in the episodes or films and played a small part. 21. Adm. Hanson's flagship There is no evidence to the Excelsior Class ship seen in BOBW 1 being the flagship in the Battle of Wolf 359. The ship could have ferried the Adm. to a meeting with the USS Enterprise D. 22. Age of the Miranda/Age of the Oberth Based on the evidence in the episodes and films, I offer this rough estimate- 2225 Constitution Class (The Making of Star Trek) 2230's Soyuz Class (give a life span of 50 years) 2240's/2250's Miranda Class 2260's Oberth Class 23. B'Rel/K'Vort The US Coast Guard uses ships that are of a basic design. One such ship class I know has the ship sizes being 75-100-150 feet long. So the possibility exists that the Bird of Prey is the same. 24. USS Enterprise NCC-1701-A There is no canonical history of the ship building of the Constituion Class. I personally believe the USS Enterprise NCC-1701-A could be a new ship and that she isn't a renamed ship. Again, I know of a few instances where a new ship is retired in the US Navy after a short period of operation-the USS Virginia-for various reasons. 25. USS Intrepid ("Force of Nature") I believe this ship to be the class ship of the USS Intrepid. For the USS Voyager to be launchded, the USS Intrepid had to prove to be a success after at least 6 months of trials. Based on my personal beliefs, I place the launch of the Intrepid in 2369. 26. Peregrine I have no opinion on these ships.
My view on registries-I base my registries on the preponderance of the evidence. For instance, the registry of the USS Zhukov. NCC-26136: Evidence, Encyclopedias 1 and 2 NCC-62136: Evidence: okudagram from the fourth year, the studio model, Encyclopedias 1 and 2 My choice: NCC-62136
Gentlemen and Gentlewomen, you have missed a very important mention in the DS9 series about starships. See my newest thread-this mention deserves its own thread.
[This message was edited by Trinculo on May 03, 1999.]
Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :
You miss the poiint of this thread. It's stuff we don't agree on, remember? We're not going to just accept what you say. . . I hope that Frank's page will present all the conflicting evidence for each problem, and leave the ultimate conclusion to the reader.
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
Well, it's always nice to hear these opinions, so we know what to write about. Lee is correct, though; the page will present all sides of each argument, but no definite resolution (unless there are several specific ones).
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Walter Barnett: "D-Did that thing just shatter an overpass into dust?" Donny Finkleberg: "No, I...I think it was an entrance ramp."
Posted by Trinculo on :
I present my opinions so as to avoid the hassle of e-mailing everyone who is thinking or or in the writing stage of such a page. I never said that my opinions are the definitive word. Do I have to preface every comment I make with "IMHO"? Others don't and I won't.
Posted by Captain Stark (Member # 70) on :
Trinculo item #21: According to the BoBW Scripts the listing for Admiral Hansen talking to the Enterprise had him on a Galaxy Class Bridge Set. More fuel for the fire.
------------------ -=/\=- Captain Stark http://beam.to/readyroom
"The man on the top walks a lonely path. The chain of command is often a noose." Dr. Leonard McCoy --Obsession, Stardate: 3619.2
Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :
Well, the scripts are wrong. It wasn't a GCS bridge. It looked like the Movie bridge that's been redressed at various times. Plus, remember, the Admiral started out on an Excelsior. . .
Posted by Trinculo on :
Then the Admiral went to a starbase to discuss strategy. The scripts said a Galaxy Class bridge-they didn't specifiy which bridge. The bridge in the episode could have been the battle bridge of a Galaxy Class starship.
Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :
The Galaxy style bridge almost certainly dates from a similar period in the story's development as the Melbourne being a Nebula. After all a Nebula would be expected to have a Galaxy style bridge (later proved wrong). Of course, the Odyssey didn't have a Galaxy style bridge and that was a Galaxy class!
I really don't think we can make very much of it.
------------------ -->Identity Crisis<--
Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :
Ultimately it comes down to this: if there was a GCS at Wolf 359, then it was destroyed, unless the Ahwahnee WASN'T the 'surviving' ship. . . and if a GCS was destroyed, then either the long-accepted claim that only 12 hulls were built is wron, or there weren't 9 of them visible in "Sacrifice of Angels" - I know people's estimates of how many they say varied between 8 and 10. . . but if there WERE 9 there, then that means - oh, heck, I'm going round in circles. . . 8)
Posted by Trinculo on :
The canonical evidence has never stated the number of Galaxy Class starships built. BTW, there were I believe 12 Galaxy Class in the episode "Sacrifice of Angels". My reasoning-Capt Sisko speaks of command divisions divided by Galaxies. There were at least 12. The only inference I can draw-the fleet was divided into smaller units with the flagship of each being a Galaxy Class starship.
Posted by Jubilee (Member # 99) on :
*peaks in to see what all this stuff is about*
*eyes do that googie thing o O*
*runs out before she catches it*
------------------ When I saw you I fell in love, and you smiled because you knew - Unkown
...if you should die before me, ask if you could bring a friend... - Unkown
Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :
Nowhere does he mention 12 wings all headed by Galaxies. And the evidence for the twelve hulls is pretty damn near 'canonical' until proven otherwise - Roddenbery's assertion there were only 6, later qualified in the Tech Manual that there were 6 with a second batch of 6 hulls mothballed.
Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :
But that is only true at the time of the TNG TM's publication. 1991 = 2368 doesn't it? Since then the six spares have almost certainly been brought into service (possibly not entirely outfitted on the inside as per Sternbach's suggestion), but there might have been more built in addition to that.
We think that we can account for five of the six in service at the time of Wolf 359, or all six if you belive that the Trinculo or the Challenger was in service back then. (The Challenger's dodgy registry number suggests that it was laid down before the Yamato, but possibly it was never finished at that time and became the first of the 'spares'. In which case it was either brought fully into service prior to the Dominion war or survived the war in an semi-finished form and was then fully fitted out.)
------------------ -->Identity Crisis<--
Posted by Trinculo on :
First One-If you are going to criticize, then present a solution. Capt Sisko spoke of Galaxy Wings (I believe this is the correct term). How do you explain this reference? Further, you need to read my messages more slowly. I present evidence, then reasoning or inference. This is different than saying I know definitively what the evidence is saying. I don't. I am doing this way since so many people have a difficulty in understanding my thoughts and come to the conclusion I am speaking in a definitive way. For me, canonical is what is available to everyone who doesn't have the money or resources to buy all the publications from Paramount. (If you are poor, twenty-five bucks is a tremendous amount of money to be spent. Unless you have no common sense, you will spend the money on food or housing.) Ergo, canonical is the films or episodes. Do you understand?
Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :
How do we explain it? We don't. But to just say arbitrarily what you say it means, that's wrong. My suggestion to you is to maybe sound a LOT less definite when you make your pronouncements.
Posted by USS Vanguard (Member # 130) on :
Well, I don't know if this is really in dispute but there are also the five ships from TNG "Eye of the Beholder" O-grams. USS Philadelphia, Syracuse, Silversides, Pueblo, and Beaver.
USS Vanguard(formerly USS Hastings, and a newbie for the fourth time)
------------------ Go banana!-Ralph Wiggum
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
Before I forget, there's two other things...another phantom Grissom in the original encyclopedia (an Oberth with a 59xxx registry) and the registry of the Fearless (which was supposed to be 14598, but showed up as 4598 in parts of the first encyclopedia, an error which ended up in the second edition).
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Walter Barnett: "D-Did that thing just shatter an overpass into dust?" Donny Finkleberg: "No, I...I think it was an entrance ramp."
Posted by Federation Shipmaster (Member # 15) on :
Oh yes, that. I use both of those in my ship list.
------------------ What bloke invented signatures?
But definitely worth a mention.