Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Holodeck Safety Protocols?

This is topic Holodeck Safety Protocols? in forum Starships & Technology at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://flare.solareclipse.net/ultimatebb.php/topic/6/507.html

Posted by Starbuck (Member # 153) on :

Okay, here's a weird idea for you... it came up while I was discussing "The Killing Game" with some friends, and grew rapidly when we realised just how lethal the lack of holodeck safety protocols could be!

So, here are a few posers:

1. In "The Killing Game", if the Hirogen had run the Battle of Wolf 359 holoprogram with the safeties off, what would happen to anyone unfortunate enough to be assimilated? Would they become permanently Borg?

2. If the shuttle test flight holoprogram from "Threshold" was run with the safeties off, what would have happened to Tom Paris when the shuttle broke up? Can a holodeck inflict explosive decompression?

3. Given everything we know about the holodeck and the way it works, how come Riker was able to bounce a stone off the wall in "Encounter at Farpoint"? (I know, it's not a safety thing but it bugs me )

4. If the safeties are on and a player suffers an injury (explosive decompression, assimilation, suborbital skydiving accident etc.), what occurs from the player's point of view, and from the point of view of others in the program?

5. The holographic attack on the Nazi building in "The Killing Game" caused significant damage to Voyager's internal structure. What would happen if a simulated starship suffered a warp core breach and the safeties were off?

And finally...

6. Another non-safety question, but...
A holodeck has a finite size. If two crewmembers stand in the middle of the holodeck and walk towards the walls with a suitable program running (one which gives a larger virtual space than is physically available), what happens? Do they appear to move apart through the use of "force-field treadmills" and holoimaging, or do they bump into the walls?
And can you fit more real people into a large virtual space than you can fit in a deactivated holodeck?

------------------
WARNING: Storing semtex in the microwave
may be hazardous to your health!

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Well, the holodeck is only a machine. And even with the safeties off, it cannot perfectly reproduce reality. What I think would happen:

1) The Borg drones would punch nasty holes in the necks of the players, but no nanoprobes would be injected since the computer wouldn't be smart enough and the replicators not high-resolution enough to recreate them. At most, some sort of ersatz solution would be injected that might look like nanoprobe fluid.

2) Yes, Paris probably would suffer decompression. Forcefields that can support a man's weight or simulate the throwing of a punch or the flight of a tommy-gun bullet ought to be strong enough to do this. The experience might not beperfectly realistic but would be lethal enough.

3) Now that was the holodeck *before* the Bynars got a chance to mess with it in "11001001". Apparently, it wasn't very realistic at that point and could be easily fooled. Note how Riker seems amazed at the quality of the simulation in "11001001" even though the TV viewer notices nothing different from the earlier holodeck episodes. Perhaps the simulations originally had fake sounds, fake-feeling forcefields, jerky cuts in the action (synched with the cuts of the episode so that the TV viewers never noticed), annoying delays...

4) Perhaps the simulation freezes partially or completely. For example, if somebody jumps off a cliff, others see him falling but he himself gets an unrealistic deceleration at the end and lands softly on his feet. Or then he gets rudely returned to his starting point, with flaming letters appearing in mid-air in front of him: "Do not do that again!"...

5) The holodeck would probably lack the resources to simulate a core breach, and would only produce a moderately big explosion by using the forcefields. If "Killing Game" is any indication, some bulkheads would be bent and sparks would fly.

6) The two players would get the full treadmill treatment, plus holographic illusion of moving away from each other. The players would be individually surrounded by holographic "bubbles" or "booths" to achieve this effect. When they came close to each other again, the "booths" would merge.

And yes, you can fit more people on an activated holodeck than on a deactivated one, unless the program has a safety feature that prevents the computer from stacking people atop each other! On a standard E-D holodeck, three people could stand atop each other, supported by forcefields, and thus tripling the available floor space...

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

What would happen if the whole crew of voyager would go into the same holodeck to celebrate something, only to experience a massive power-surge? "splort!!" Hee Hee

------------------
-You're crazy!!!
-I thought I was pisces!

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I agree w/ Timo's evaluation, but I have a couple things to add. First, on the core breach question, I think that, as far as the people inside the holodeck were concerned, the explosion would be real enough, but it would end at the walls of the holodeck, so it wouldn't affect the rest of the ship in any way. And, on the question of how many people can fit in the holodeck, I agree that they can be on top of one another, but, once the entire volume of the room is filled, no more people can fit. Remember: the holodeck can make it look like two people standing right next to each other are far away from each other, but, in actuality, they still are right next to each other. Once the room is totally filled, no matter what the computer makes it look like, there is no more physical space for anyone else to occupy.

------------------
"Alright, so it's impossible. How long will it take?"
-Commander Adams, Forbidden Planet

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

I always wondered how the baseball game in "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" could really work. How could all the (real) players on the field seem to stand so far apart in the tiny holosuite? Where would they each be standing in the room if the program ended? It just messes with my head.

------------------
"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I imagine it's probably common practice for people to gather together before deactivating the holodeck, to avoid any such disorienting shifts in apparent position.

------------------
"And if we weren't good to you, Dave, you shouldn't take it all the way to your grave."
--
Will Rigby

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Yeah "Holodeck etiquette" is probably engrained into Starfleet culture by now.

------------------
"Resolve and thou art free."

Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

To play a baseball game you might use 2 or more linked holodecks. Maybe the infielders are in one holodeck and the outfielders are in another. As a ball leaves the infield, it becomes only an image on the wall of the infield holodeck, then materializes from an image to an object in the outfield holodeck. I don't what would happen if the ball would to drop into short centerfield. Maybe people in one holodeck would interact with holograms or whatever of people in the other holodeck.

At the ends of innings, may be there's some way to transport between holodecks so everyone's back in the dugout waiting to hit or put out in the field. Who knows?

It seems to me if the holodeck is like a rear-view mirror -- "objects are closer than they appear" -- it could be pretty dangerous. If you think you're meters away but are actually fairly close to a batter, you could get your head bashed in or be run over.

------------------
When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Well, you couldn't get hit in the head by the bat because, in all likelyhood, the bat doesn't really exist.

As for running into people, there's a whole section in the TNG tech. manual describing how the holodeck avoids such things.

Ok, ok, so the bat could very possibly be replicated. But my point stands! I think.

------------------
"And if we weren't good to you, Dave, you shouldn't take it all the way to your grave."
--
Will Rigby

Posted by Starbuck (Member # 153) on :

So if the holodeck is so non-lethal, how come the explosion in "The Killing Game" did so much damage?
And why is Chakotay so concerned about B'Elanna's skydiving in "Extreme Risk"?
I reckon that without the safeties in place, the events simulated would be very real, if not 100% identical to the actual event.

Next thought: Since the Voyager computer contains so much info on the Borg, and their nanoprobes have been extensively analysed by the Doctor, could a Voyager holodeck with the safeties off theoretically make holo-nanoprobes to assimilate the crew??

------------------
WARNING: Storing semtex in the microwave may be hazardous to your health!

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Where exactly did I say the holodeck can never hurt anyone? It just isn't designed to. (When used with proper adult supervision.)

As for holographic nanoprobes, wasn't that already answered further up the thread?

------------------
"And if we weren't good to you, Dave, you shouldn't take it all the way to your grave."
--
Will Rigby

Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

Holodecks don't kill people, people kill people.

If I were to bring a gun (or a baseball bat or a Bat'leth (sp?) into a holodeck and attempt to kill you, is there anything that the holodeck could do to stop me? Maybe there's a safety against objects above a certain size travelling above a certain velocity?

------------------
When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Well, the computer probably doesn't pay attention to whether the things you bring in w/ you are weapons or not, so it wouldn't do anything on its own. However, if somebody snuck into your Klingon calisthenics program w/ a real bat'leth and tried to kill you w/ it, you could probably (assuming you can fend off your assassim for long enough) order the computer to dematerialize their weapon. Of course, this leads to the possibility of turning off the safeties and then dematerializing other people. Handy if someone attacks you on the holodeck. Not-so-handy if the attacker figures out how to do it to you...

------------------
"Alright, so it's impossible. How long will it take?"
-Commander Adams, Forbidden Planet

Posted by Starbuck (Member # 153) on :

I *know* the holonanoprobe issue has been discussed... but the Voyager computer probably has more data on Borg technology than any other Starfleet vessel does, so I raised it again.
It seems safe to assume that the more information the computer has on a given topic, the more accurate its recreation will be...

If the holodeck can dematerialise and rematerialise matter, I wonder what happens if you shoot someone with a holographic Klingon disruptor set to "disintegrate"?

------------------
WARNING: Storing semtex in the microwave may be hazardous to your health!

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

It doesn't matter how much data the computer has an a certain subject. Trek computers contain, for instance, full biomedical profiles for hundreds of species. That doesn't mean the holodeck can create them. It's a matter of resolution.

------------------
"And if we weren't good to you, Dave, you shouldn't take it all the way to your grave."
--
Will Rigby

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Wait, how can the holodeck dematerialise something it didn't create?

------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Stuff" - Nobody

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

All the holodeck can do is create holograms. Replicators in the holodeck are used to create "real" items. There's never been anything shown where the holodecks can alter things it didn't create and I personally don't think they can. In the DS9 ep "Business as Usual", Gaila shoots a holgraphic phaser at Quark. When it hits him, it looks like a small forcefield comes up to protect him from being hit. We could assume that the holodeck prevents lethal blows by creating forcefields or making objects it created intangible as they make contact with the person involved.

------------------
"Resolve and thou art free."

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Well, it's been shown that the holodeck does, in fact, use replicator technology to create real objects (e.g. Data took the drawing of the E-D off the holodeck in "Elementary, Dear Data"). If a holodeck can replicate matter, why can't it de-replicate matter (as the replicators do when you finish your meal and stick the dirty dishes back in)? And, finally, if a holodeck can de-replicate the things that it replicates, why can't it de-replicate anything? Aside from maybe a certain degree of unnatural uniformity, there's no difference between replicated matter and regular matter.

------------------
"Alright, so it's impossible. How long will it take?"
-Commander Adams, Forbidden Planet

Posted by Lt. Tom on :

We've agreed that the holodeck can make it look like two people are, say, 100 meters apart. Now in order to do that, it has to keep track of where everybody really is. For that to happen, the holodeck has to at least be able to recognize things that originate outside the holodeck as being separate from its program. (I've just realized that the same thing applies to costumes, props, and the like.) Now, you design a safety and hardwire it: Dematerialize only that which is part of the program.

"Computer! Delete Ensign Redshirt!"
"Unable to comply."
"Computer, disable safties and delete Ensign Redshirt!"
"Safeties disengaged. Unable to comply."
...at which point Ensign Redshirt will be high-tailing it out the exit.

Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :

You know what? I think the only EFFECTIVE safety protocol that those pesky SF engineers in the future could come up with is the one that doesn't allow holodecks! "Force-field bubbles"? Ahum ahum. If a room has a certain physical size, then only so many people would physically fit into it, no matter what it looks like... thus, you can forget about cramping twice as many objects inside because everything in that holochamber is virtual. Also, for each individual occupying the holodeck, the view must be realistic, i.e. the right perspective etc. and that gets kind of impossible to maintain if the holodeck is completely filled with people. "Holographic threadmills"? Even more ahum ahum. When the HD is inactive, you can walk around inside the chamber and touch the walls, like you can in any ordinary room. Now activate the HD (and project a nice little background scenery

). You're standing in a threadmill, so no matter if you move your legs, you will still continue to occupy the same physical location, but whatever you see from your perspective will depend on the direction you tell your legs to take. In other words, what you see would have to be projected on the inside of the "force field mill". Now imagine this: the entire chamber is 100 square meters (say 10 by 10). On each "square" stands on person, facing the exact center of the chamber so that there are 100 people in total, all looking at some sort of central object. Then, they activate the HD and walk toward this object. What will happen? In reality, no one moves at all (if there is indeed a threadmill system), but in the projection (assuming that they appeared to be standing about 5 meters apart from one another) they are gathered around the central object as closely as possible, so that there are say 5 people per square. This is turn would mean that anyone who would look "through" his/her forcefield would see 4 others on the same square (there is a yellow squared "grid" on the floor). Then, everyone turns around and starts running in the opposite direction. Of course, they don't move an inch (except the forcefield mill which "floats" them in the air bit, back to their original starting point). Everyone would see a rapid projection to make it seem they were running. When they have all ran some yards they stop and turn around once again. Physically, they would now be standing close to the walls of the HD, but they would see things as if they were all some yards apart from one another. And then... you know what, I'm loosing it here... holodecks are DANGEROUS not only to your body but also to your mind!

------------------
"Cry havoc and let's slip the dogs of Evil"

Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :

Oh and please don't mind the spelling errors I made accidently => "have ran" etc

------------------
"Cry havoc and let's slip the dogs of Evil"

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Hm... I didn't quite follow your point there, but okay... :-)

And Lt. Tom is right. The holodeck could be programmed to disallow deletion of real people. However, if this were not explicitly written into the holodeck's workings, it would be physically possible for it to "remove" real people from the program...

------------------
"Alright, so it's impossible. How long will it take?"
-Commander Adams, Forbidden Planet

Posted by Starbuck (Member # 153) on :

Somehow, I don't think the Federation engineers would build the holodeck as a Hoffa Machine

For the unenlightened - a Hoffa Machine is a device which allows the user to turn someone else into Jimmy Hoffa, ie. vanished without a trace

------------------
"Replicate some marmalade, Commander - helm control is toast!"

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

1) No. Timo said it best. Nanoprobes are just too complex to replicate. Even the Doctor took a lot of time to replicate nanoprobes to combat Species 8472.

2) Possibly. I'm not sure.

3) Actually, that problem still exists, even after the Bynars made modifications. Data threw a communicator at the wall in "Ship in a Bottle" when he realized he, Picard, and Barclay were trapped in Moriarty's Holodeck. How it works is simple: The Holodeck has some sort of Treadmill effect which keeps the user or users firmly planted in the centre of the Holodeck. This treadmill effect does not apply to objects that are thrown to a distance. So when Riker picks up a rock and throws it, he's trying to throw BEYOND the wall. No treadmill effect here, and the rock bounces off the wall.

4) I have some comments on Timo's answer. If B'Elanna can simulate Skydiving, then it is very possible for her to hit the ground hard if the chute isn't deployed. This shows that the Holodeck can simulate gravity. How this works is that the Holodeck keeps her in place while the ground rushes up to her. When she approaches the ground, the holodeck "flings" her to the ground with such force as to jumping off a cliff. Ouch.

I'd like to remind you that it you tried throwing a rock down a cliff, it may not work as it is like throwing a rock towards a wall.

5) Unless the Holodeck can replicate antimatter, then well, the ship would be toast. So therefore, I really don't think it is possible. A large

6) The treadmill effect can apply to almost everyone in the Holodeck. And yes, they probably use some sort of program like a lens to appear that they are very far away when they are not. As for the Baseball bat thing, I surmise that the end of the bat dematerializes to prevent hitting anyone. It's not supposed to hit anyone anyway. But if you are actually hitting someone with a bat and the safeties are off, then it WILL hurt.

------------------
I can resist anything.......
Except Temptation

Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :

Hmm... I read through my own reply and I came to the conclusion that... some things in life (sci-fi life that is) are just too complicated to bother with

When I started the message I had a general point that I wanted to make but I lost it after a few lines... I'm not even going to try or bother coming up with a new point because I will inevitably end up going down a dead-end again

------------------
"Cry havoc and let's slip the dogs of Evil"

Posted by Starbuck (Member # 153) on :

Um... Tahna...
I can see why Picard's comm badge might bounce, but Riker's rock was a holo-object. So how come the holodekc didn't behave the same as it would for, say, a baseball game, or a holographic taxi driving down a street?

------------------
"Replicate some marmalade, Commander - helm control is toast!"

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

At that time, the holodeck had not been upgraded by the Bynars. Perhaps it was unable to compensate for something moving that quickly. It's quite possible that, if you ran quickly enough at the wall, you would hit it before the computer had time to notice and tractor you back away from it.

------------------
"General Hammond: Request permission to beat the crap out of this man."
-Colonel O'Neill, Stargate: SG-1: "Bane"

Posted by Starbuck (Member # 153) on :

One other point...
Tahna Los' long-winded reply seemed to be missing a chunk right around point 5 (or is it just my browser?). Anyone care to fill in the blanks?

------------------
"Replicate some marmalade, Commander - helm control is toast!"

[This message has been edited by Starbuck (edited November 25, 1999).]