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Posted by Marko Latin on :

I fount details on the Sector 001 battle (Star Trek 8: First Contact) and the battle is supposed to last 4 days and over 400 ships were lost (!?!).

I'd like some more info on this one...

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Dream on...in the end...dreams are everything...

Posted by Marko Latin on :

would someone delete this before someone replies (if someone does (witch i doubt then don't delete it))?

oh yeah...and leave the other topic...
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Dream on...in the end...dreams are everything...

[This message has been edited by Marko Latin (edited January 21, 2000).]

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

What...the...hell...?

Anyway, where did you hear that this battle lasted for 4 freaking days? Unless this came from an original line of dialouge not aired or from one of TPTB, I would catagorically say that it is non-canon and noone should consider it reliable at all. I mean we heard the start of the battle on the com and Picard took off and called for Red Alert right away. They must have only been a few hours away at most. Now while I agree this was a writing oversight, the battle did most assuredly not last 4 days.

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Posted by Marko Latin on :

Here is a link to the page where i found that...
http://members.tripod.com/~adeadend/index2.htm?list=/~adeadend/listbattles.htm

I noticed some other inconsistances too...when was the Chin'toka retreat if there was such an event? The USS Defiant was destroyed in the battle according to the info there...I know that CAN'T be true...the defiant is still in one piece in Insurrection and will hopefully stay that way...some say that one of the defiant-class ships in VOY:"Message in a bottle" was the Defiant herself...but that's only assumption...

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Here is the part of the battle report where it says about the battle lasting 4 days:

The second Borg attack on the Federation came in 2373. A single cube again attempted to reach Earth and assimilate its population. By this time Starfleet had been building up its forces in the core of the Federation for several years in response to the Romulan, Borg and Dominion threats; a fleet of five hundred Starships met the Borg ship at the Typhon sector and fought a four day running battle all the way to Earth. Starfleet managed to inflict significant damage on the cubes outer hull, but the Borg inflicted massive losses on the fleet in the process. By the time the cube reached Earth some three hundred and twenty ships had been lost, most of them with all hands.
______________________________________________________

i know it's only speculation but where did the guy who made the site get this???

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Dream on...in the end...dreams are everything...

Posted by Obese Penguin (Member # 271) on :

Ummm... Lemme Guess you havent seen the Final Chapter of DS9 have you ?

If you havent seen the Last episodes of Ds9 please stop reading here because im about to spoil it for Marko.

Im not going to say much just that yes the Defiant did go boom and yes thge Chintoka Retreat did take place.

As for the 4 day Sector 001 remark , if you notice this particular site has a "Key" if the Text is Yellow on the page it is Canon Info either from the Episodes or from the Encyclopedia , if the text is white it means that the comment is the webmasters Opinion or theory and if the text is Green that means that the comment is either backstage info , what he means by backstage info i dont know.

Where he came up with this thoery is also a mystery , i emailed him about it but I have yet to receive any reply.

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~Homer "The Simpsons"

Jupiter Station , Starfleet Research & Development

[This message has been edited by Dhunter (edited January 21, 2000).]

Posted by warbird5 on :

400 ships lost? I kinda find that hard to swallow. A cube cannot take on 400 federation ships. The Sector 001 battle(or at least the one we witnessed) the cube was destroyed by 25 or so ships. The defense at the Typhon sector was probably a small diversion to get the fleet organized. It probably consisted of 10 ships.

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

uh, also, Defiant was NEVER in Insurrection in any way shape or form.

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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

I don't even want to imagine what a cube could do to the federation in 96 hours, gloves off. How many high-yield warheads do you think they could store in there?

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Somehow we're going somewhere.

Posted by Justin_Timberland (Member # 236) on :

400 ships in a 4 day battle?

Looks like someone did some creative writing...

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Sometimes I hide
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Posted by Marko Latin on :

i meant that the defiant was still in one piece at the time the insurrection is happening...

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Dream on...in the end...dreams are everything...

Posted by Jaresh Inyo on :

I'd always held the belief that the battle against the Borg was a running fight perhaps lasting a day, with additional Federation ships arriving alone or in groups for the entire duration. Can you imagine a captain saying "You mean we can't be there for five hours? Ah, forget it then. The battle will have already started. Let's just get a bite to eat and wait this one out."

I'd always thought that a small fleet was thrown at the cube for the first battle, which allowed numerous Federation ships to amass at Earth, while other Federation deployments were constantly relieving the ships actually tasked with fighting the cube. That way the cube would be under constant attack while the Federation ships could stand down and regenerate their shields. The battle in First Contact wasn't on the verge of being lost, it just hadn't turned in the Federation's favour yet.

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Posted by Marko Latin on :

i think the battle was indeed wery close to being lost...
The cube was very close to Earth and the cube looked like it could take much more beating.

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Dream on...in the end...dreams are everything...

Posted by Jaresh Inyo on :

The Federation forces weren't running out of ships, and Earth's orbital defenses hadn't opened fire yet.

Posted by Black Knight (Member # 134) on :

Fed's weren't running out of ships?
I remember seeing at least 2 or three ships get blown up in the time it took Picard to say "trust me data", and "fire".

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

I don't find Graham's idea of a four-day battle incredible at all, if it indeed is a running battle (starts at Typhon, ends with the launch of the sphere and explosion of cube). I do think that 400 ships destroyed is a bit much - Starfleet would certainly be wiser now, and would know when to retreat. Saving the Earth simply isn't worth losing 400 ships over!

I'd also say the glimpse we got of the final sublight part of the battle aren't representative of the battle in general. We saw perhaps half a dozen ships get destroyed during that glimpse of perhaps five-six minutes. A ship per minute just isn't likely - Starfleet would rather give up than lose such numbers of ships on a lost cause. If a ship per minute is lost without causing more than the "heavy surface damage" Data observed, then there is no hope of saving Earth even with thousands of sacrificed ships.

There would be good reasons to assume the battle got bloodier as Earth approached. The Cube was interested in getting through this time, not in stopping to assimilate the fleet. It probably simply didn't bother to destroy too many ships while at warp.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

Assuming that it does take a couple of days from the Typhoon sector to Earth, I can believe that the overall Borg incident lasted that long. I assume that after the Cube had broken through the first defense line of let's say 50 ships that could be gathered in time, Starfleet regrouped their forces around Sector 001, using around 100 ships. It is possible that about half of the involved ships was destroyed, and the latter battle lasted several hours, but not several days.

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

Considering that site also says there's hundreds of ships in each class I'd take his information with a gain of salt.

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Better than a loss of salt, I suppose... j/k ;-)

Now, as for why the battle might have gotten worse near Earth... It's my opinion that the reason we saw so many of the same four classes of ships at the battle is that those four classes had been recalled to various shipyards to be upgraded (possibly to be given the new "environmentally friendly" warp engines). Now, if these ships were in the process of being refit (or even if they had already been refit, but hadn't had a shakedown), there could have been unforseen problems. Hence, the ships weren't working at 100% efficiency, so they were more apt to be destroyed. Of course, despite this, Starfleet couldn't very well tell them not to fight. They were probably the only ships around.

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Teal'c: "In my culture, I would be well within my rights to dismember you."
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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Another possible multi-part explanation:

-Akira and Nebula are fast deep-space explorer ships, thus they got to the scene from faraway locations (Galaxies might have, too, but there are probably much fewer of those overall than there are Nebulas or Akiras).
-Saber is a tiny ship, so perhaps it doesn't go far. Thus, there would be a swarm of such local-defence vessels near Earth to begin with.
-Norway is a one-off ship never seen later. Perhaps something experimented on at the big research facilities of Utopia Planitia or Earth's yards?
-Steamrunner seems old and ugly and not very fast if sleekness is a measure of speed (and it often seems to be!). These could be warships with no peacetime use, perhaps "floating docks" for planetary assaults (they do look like today's amphibious assault floating docks to me). Since ST:FC takes place in peacetime, the ships would be stocked in garrisons, possibly near Earth. Note that they fare extremely poorly in the battle, getting blown up in high numbers by single "belly shots". I can't see any of them taking a single hit and surviving, even though the other ship types do take hits without blowing up.

The odd thing about that battle was the absence of Excelsiors. Those are normally everywhere. Did they form some sort of an outer defence perimeter and were all destroyed there?

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

Marko's theory does explain one thing: how long it took for the Enterprise-E to get from the Romulan Neutral Zone to Earth. It CANNOT be in a span of several hours.

Perhaps the events that transpired in BoBW happened over a span of a week or something. Although the Borg Cube has some awesome capabilities, it- like all other starships- can only travel at a certain maximum speed. How long does it take for a Starship to travel between the outskirts of the Federation to Earth itself?

From what I read in the novelized version of ST-FC a fleet of ships engaged the Borg Cube in the Typhon sector. Rather than stay and fight the fleet, the Borg chose to break through the line as quickly as possible while inflicting as much damage within a short time frame. Not all ships in the Typhon fleet were destroyed, this including the Defiant, and Admiral Hayes' Flagship. I believe that Data mentioned that about 20 ships were in that Typhon sector fleet. This fleet followed the Borg cube to Earth where another fleet was waiting to fight the cube. No one knows how long this battle was, but it was long enough for the Ent-E to get to Earth to help finish the cube off.

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Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Okay, here is a shot at what I think may have happened in First Contact:

Picard talked about an invasion. Bones would probably say: "Since when does 1 ship constitudes to an invision?"

Here is what I think what may have been the full conversation about the Borg invasion on the Enterprise:

Picard: "I just got a message from Admiral [whatever his name was]. The Borg are invading the Federation. We have put some 400 ships on it to intercept the [insert a number] Cubes. But the last thing I heard is that the Borg have broken through the lines."

=== Here begins the scene in First Contact:

Riker: "How many ships?"

Picard: "One, and it is... "

The rest you know.

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"Reality is a condition that occurs because of a lack of alcohol."
- Albert Einstein

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[This message has been edited by Altair (edited January 26, 2000).]

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Remember there is a glut of evidence that the Romulans are one of the closest neighbours to Earth...

1. Romulan Wars in low warp vessels
2. Past Tense 1. Kira scans the area and there is no sign of Starfleet activity - the closest aliens are Romulans... they have colonies in the Rigel system - one of - remember the heaviest populated systems in the Federation... and close to Earth - at least I think its the Rigel system...

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ancient societies from distant orbit than it might be to sit next to the
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Posted by DaddyDragon on :

Trek lore does indeed paint of a picture of the close proximity of the Romulan Neutral Zone. The original Earth/Romulan war was fought before the Romulans aquired warp drive against a fledgling interstellar United Earth. Based on the assumption that the Neutral Zone is somewhere within 20 light years of Earth (which would take a warp 2 capable ship 3 years to reach), it would have taken the Big E-E four days to travel that distance at warp 9.6, four days to get to Earth (even pushing the engines to its limits, 20 light years would take two days a warp 9.9, I don't know if Scotty could have kept her together at that speed for two straight days). [Rigel, BTW is 905 light years from Earth, and would technically take 181 days to reach at that speed, but we all know what kind of creative license the writers have taken regarding warp travel times.

]

That being said, I do have to agree with others on this list that the battle may have actually been a protracted series of meeting engagements, over a period of two to four days. A can see small task groups of 3 to 50 vessels, using every dirty trick in the book to disrupt the Borg Cube's warp fields, lay traps to force course corrections, harassing the Cube at every opportunity, inflicting as much damage as possible and then breaking off (perhaps hoping in vain to draw the Borg off of their intended target), all in a dedicated effort to allow other ships to reach the Sol System for the final stand, the very end of which we witness in those early scenes of ST:FC. I don't know if I can buy the loss of 400 ships, especially in light of the vast quantities of ships we see later being fielded in the Dominion War. Or maybe, this is in spite of it.

YMMV,
Larry

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I was going to mention the proximity of the Romulan thing too.

Of course, the Neutral Zone extends for as long as the Empire and the Federation share a common border, so the Enterprise could have been at some distant point, but it also could have been relatively close to Earth.

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R.E.M.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Personally, I think they may have been at the nearest possible part of the NZ to Earth. Perhaps, even though the brass didn't want Picard in the battle, they figured they should keep him nearby, just in case (and a good thing they did, I suppose...). I don't think they took days to get from the NZ to the battle. I'm sure it was only a few hours. Of course, the way the movie was done, they made it look like about ten minutes, but I think we can ignore that... :-)

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Teal'c: "In my culture, I would be well within my rights to dismember you."
-Stargate SG-1: "Touchstone"

Posted by nx001a (Member # 291) on :

But this is not the first time that the Enterprise has caught up with a Borg cube. Remember best of both worlds part 2 and the Enterprise D was able to catch up with it even though the Borg ship was faster and had a head start. Maybe the ships attacking it slowed the cube down.

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

The Enterprise didn't really catch up to the Borg cube. It just got to Earth at the same time, possibly coming from the opposite direction.

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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Do you mean in FC or TBoBW? In TBoBW, they were coming from the same place (Wolf359).

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Col. Maybourne: "Teal'c... It's good to see you well."
Teal'c: "In my culture, I would be well within my rights to dismember you."
-Stargate SG-1: "Touchstone"

Posted by nx001a (Member # 291) on :

In BoBW the Enterprise and the Borg Cube were travelling in the same direction but the Borg Cube travelled at warp 9.95 approx. It only slowed down at Worf 359 to destroy the federation fleet which did not take long since it destroyed the first 4 ships in less than 2-3 minutes. i assume the other ships would not last for more than 30 minutes. The Enterprise however was at the edge of the federation space with damage to her warp drive which took several hours to repair. Then it had a speed of about 9.2 but it eventually catched up with the cube. very unlikely i think.

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"We set sail on this new sea because their is new knowledge to be gained and new rights to be won" John F Kennedy

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Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

nx001a: I agree that the Enterprise hardly could reach the Sol system just a few minutes after the Borg. Where did you get the Warp 9.95 figure? I thought the Borg were a bit faster than the D's maximum emergency speed of Warp 9.8, but their speed not explicitly given.

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"A few more calculations"

Posted by Trip Tucker (Member # 297) on :

Now that the Romulans fought alongside the Federation in the Dominion War, could we maybe see the Neutral Zone being abolished? I wonder if the Romulan treaty will hold..I'd love to see more Federation ships with cloaking devices!
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Posted by warbird5 on :

Nx how did that thread get in there?

At wolf 359 the fleet probably fought for more than an hour maybe even two before getting oblieterated

Posted by Trip Tucker (Member # 297) on :

I dunno, just thinking out loud I guess. The subject of the Neutral Zone came up and I thought that maybe it might not be so "forbidden" anymore, since the Romulans have made peace with the Federation.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

What the...when did we switch from First Contact? Oh, this is so confusing.

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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.

Posted by nx001a (Member # 291) on :

Sorry I got carried away. However I think the points I made in BoBW is similar to ST:FC since the Borg cube can travel very fast. However the Sovereign Class is also very fast as well. So the Enterprise could have catched up while the rest of the fleet were slowing the cube down.

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

How many ST-novels and/or short stories have dealt with Wolf 359? Have any of them spoken of the chronology of events, even non-canon? I would like to know if SF had waves and attack-wings.
I mean, since they knew the borg were coming they must've made some sort of formation or something.

Also I've heard there was some ship(s) that survived by retreating or something. I wonder which ship held out the longest...

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Posted by nx001a (Member # 291) on :

At BoBW only one ship survived the encounter. The USS Endeavor Nebula Class ship commanded by Capt.Amasov. However we do not know how they survived.

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

::sigh:: Of course you ask anyone else that and they'll tell you it was the Cheyenne-class USS Ahwahnee which was the original survivor.

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Thanks...I think.

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Somehow we're going somewhere.

Posted by Delta Vega (Member # 283) on :

I think the Ahwahnee was salvaged after the battle.

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Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

The Encyclopedia III claims the Endeavour got away from 359 since it's captain had a log on the Borg and was still alive. Unfortunatly, in the spidoe "Scorpion", where this info was all mentioned, Wolf 359 was never mentioned at all. It is possible that the USS Endeavour merely had a single incident with the Borg, similar to the USS Tombaugh, USS Excalibur, and SS Raven.

As for the USS Ahwahnee, it's assumed to have survived since we know the USS Ahwahnee NCC-73620 model was part of the wreckage, but in "Redemption", a screen showing the ships in Picard's fleet listed the USS Ahwahnee NCC-71620. It's assumed (and possibly confirmed) that they thought the original registry was too high and lowered it. Therefore, it's assumed she survived. It's most likely that she was damaged and her crew killed (or escaped), and was repaired and recommissioned.

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Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Or maybe the Ahwahnee in "Redemption" was an entirely new ship.

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Posted by warbird5 on :

was there any klingon ships at wolf 359 as Utopia plantia had claimed?

i remember they said there were 40 federation ships and 2 klingon BOPs

[This message has been edited by warbird5 (edited January 30, 2000).]

Posted by nx001a (Member # 291) on :

If the USS Ahwahnee had the same registry not including adding a letter to the end of it then it seems likely that it had survived. However the episode scorpion did not mention that capt.amasov ship survived since for all we know he could have got away on a escape pod like a benjamin sisko. However, for clarity sake i think the endeavor survived the battle but not the Ahwahnee.

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Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

Actually, for clarities sake, the Endeavour was NOT at Wolf 359. "Scorpion" never mentioned when or where the Endeavour met the Borg, if at all. Therefore, as far as we know, Endeavour was not at Wolf 359.

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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Can both of them not have survived? Starfleet had 40 ships engage the Borg at 359. Since we saw a Kilngon BoP get blown up in a "Unity" flashback by a Borg cube, and at that time, the only encounter with a cube was 359. Thus, there was at least one Klingon ship present and destroyed at 359. That gives us a minimum total of 41 ships. Since 39 were destroyed, at least two had to have survived. Why not those two?

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Posted by bonecrusher on :

What episode shows a Bop being blown away by a cube? Voyager ep "unity" where the borg "planet collective" was formed? That episode showed the attack on DS9 in "Way of the Warrior," BTW had happened after Voyager left to the badlands.

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Posted by nx001a (Member # 291) on :

Actually the account of the Borg by Captain Amasov were first hand accounts of his engagement with the Borg. We know he was at worf 359 since the report was written before voyager was lost in the delta quadrant in 2371. It could not have been in 2373 when the endeavor engaged the borg.

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"We set sail on this new sea because their is new knowledge to be gained and new rights to be won" John F Kennedy

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

It could have been anytime between Wolf 359 and 2371, though. The E-D met the Borg twice in that time, in "I, Borg" and "Descent". And the Excalibur met them in about 2368, according to "Survival Instinct".

And more than one ship could have survived the battle at Wolf 359. Roughly 40 ships were summoned initially, and at least 40 arrived since 39 were lost and at least one must have survived to pick up the lifepods. But there's nothing to say that 42 or even 50 ships couldn't have arrived eventually, so that there could be dozens of survivors or semi-survivors. 40 is just the minimum figure.

If a big and mighty Nebula like the Endeavour decided to retreat before destruction, then many lesser ships probably also saw the wisdom of such a maneuver...

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

There is no way that anyship would have tried to escape since they were there to save the billions of lives on Earth from being assimilated. They wouldn't leave to save their relatively few asses and let billions die...

Secondly - the Awhanahee from Redemption could have been a previously decommisioned ship that was recommisioned for the sole purpose of the blockade...

Allowing for a lower registry than the one damaged/destroyed at Wolf 359

There were only Fed ships at Wolf 359 they often reuse stock footage... see Shades of Grey! there was even a scene from The Search for Spock in Riker's dreams.

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"...it might be easier to study
ancient societies from distant orbit than it might be to sit next to the
Guardian of Forever with a tricorder." - Baloo, January 2000

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Strangly enough, an Endeavor was mentioned in the radio-chatter in 'First Contact'. You can clearly hear: "Defiant and Endeavor, pull back to ..."

But Janeway could never have known about that, since they left the Alpha Quadrant about 2 years before 'First Contact'.

Could this be the same Endeavor?? Appearantly Asamov survived, or else he could not have made a report about his contact with the Borg. He would have had previous experience with fighting the Borg. But then again, so has Picard...

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"Reality is a condition that occurs because of a lack of alcohol."
- Albert Einstein

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Posted by nx001a (Member # 291) on :

I have to agree with Altair and although the evidence is conjectual. It all points to the Starship Endeavor surviving the battle against the Borg.

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"We set sail on this new sea because their is new knowledge to be gained and new rights to be won" John F Kennedy

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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Andrew:

We know that at least one ship retreated, since someone had to pick up Sisko's lifeboat. The Admiral DID give orders to fall back just before his ship was destroyed, so it's at least possible that some decided to follow that, even though he was dead. Where they went, and why they were never mentioned, I have no idea.

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

The lifeboat could have been retrieved by another ship that came by afterward, but wasn't at the battle. Some sort of unarmed or lightly armed transport, or something.

As for the Endeavour... Even if it was at W359, it could still have been destroyed. As mentioned, Amasov could have escaped on a lifeboat. Sisko survived, too, but that doesn't mean that the Saratoga wasn't destroyed...

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Col. Maybourne: "Teal'c... It's good to see you well."
Teal'c: "In my culture, I would be well within my rights to dismember you."
-Stargate SG-1: "Touchstone"

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Hmm.. didn't thought of that...

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"Reality is a condition that occurs because of a lack of alcohol."
- Albert Einstein

(-=\V/=-)

Posted by colin (Member # 217) on :

Some facts-
USS Endeavor is in the episode "Redemption, Part 2"
The opening narration of "Emissary" says that Capt Picard was a Borg captive for six days.
The information that the USS Endeavor fought in Wolf 359 is provided by the third encyclopedia. This is speculation by Mr. Okuda. Also note, the USS Ahwahnee NCC-71620 was reported as destroyed by the second encyclopedia at Wolf 359 yet there is a diagram from "Redemption, Part 2" showing the ship being in the blockade. I have seen this diagram in the show. My point is, the information in the encyclopedias is not accurate unless (I underlined this word) verified by a show or film. The USS Ahwahnee is confirmed as being in operation in 2368 and the USS Endeavor is confirmed as having had contact with the Borg before 2371. The circumstances of the encounter were never disclosed.

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Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

Did the seuqnce in "Unity" actually show BoP's at *Wolf 359*? I don't think so. It could be a Klingon-Borg-only encounter.

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"A few more calculations"

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

I think we probably would have heard about the Klingons having to deal with the Borg. Besides, they seem to be more interested in us than the Klingons.

I believe that the E-D was the first ship to reach the scene of the battle after the massacre, and she didn't detect any lifesigns. If someone else had gotten there first, they surely would have told the E what happened. Maybe someone tractored all the escape pods out of range, then went back and got blown up.

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You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

Posted by Marko Latin on :

I remember putting this thread up with the topic "Sector 001 Battle"....not "Wolf 359 Battle"...

Hello?
Have we all wondered off the topic?

I think that a saying fits perfectly with an invasion or any contact with the Borg: "Shit happens!", Duke Nukem

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Dream on...in the end...dreams are everything...

Posted by Marko Latin on :

And one other thing...why would the borg blow up escape pods? With all those potential drones just floating trough space it would be a terrible waste...

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Dream on...in the end...dreams are everything...

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

To get back to the actual topic:
Graham Kennedy's site actually says:
... a fleet of five hundred Starships met the Borg ship at the Typhon sector and fought a four day running battle all the way to Earth. Starfleet managed to inflict significant damage on the cubes outer hull, but the Borg inflicted massive losses on the fleet in the process. By the time the cube reached Earth some three hundred and twenty ships had been lost, most of them with all hands.
(bold=originally yellow=canon info)

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"Si vis pacem, para bellum." (If you want peace, prepare for war)
- Vegetius
Prakesh's Star Trek Site

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

The information about five-hundred ships should be marked as originally created.

It's not even close to anything remotely official, and is a pretty bad job of conjecturing anyway.

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I bet when Neanderthal kids would make a snowman, someone would
always end up saying "Don't forget the big heavy eyebrows." Then they would all get embarrassed because they remembered they had the big hunky eyebrows too, and then they would get mad and eat the snowman.

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Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

I'd say no more than 100 ships and 150 would probably be pushing it. Heck, so would 125.

But of course, no number was ever said and all we can do is count how many we saw on screen...even though that won't give us a good number either because we could be recounting a ship.

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7 alarm clock: "Do not touch me."
Dilbert: "Then how do I turn you off?"
7: "Believe me, I am plenty turned off."

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

I always imagined something along the lines of 40-50 max.

I just can't imagine 100 ships being needed, especially with all of the knowledge and research on the Borg.

-Jack Handey

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Huh? Seeing that all of Starfleet's research was apparently worth squat, I don't see how you can say fifty ships would be enough and 100 would be excess.

(Yes, I realize that there is at least one argument to be made for a Starfleet advance in technology and tactics, namely that there was a battle at all, unlike Wolf 359. But there's a big difference between being able to survive a battle and being able to win it.)

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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.

Posted by Justin_Timberland (Member # 236) on :

The escape pods maybe have left the battle site, well away from the Borg Cube. Look at how fast the escape pods left the USS Saratoga and the ones from USS Valiant and the Defiant. That could be the reason why the Enterprise-D didn't detect any life-signs.

As for the Endeavor and the Excalibur, the could have met other Borg Cubes prior or after Wolf 359. There was Borg activity before the tragedy and after. Since neither the show stated that either ship encountered a Borg ship at Wolf 359, we should not be saying anything definate about the Endeavor and the Excalibur. All we know is that those ships ran into some Borg problems.

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Sometimes I run
Sometimes I hide
Sometimes I'm scared of you
But all I really want is to hold you tight
Treat you right, be with you day and night
Baby all I need is time

-Britney Spears

Posted by nx001a (Member # 291) on :

All the borg have to do is assimilte someonw with knowledge on starfleets latest r&d and then starfleet will be in trouble.

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"We set sail on this new sea because their is new knowledge to be gained and new rights to be won" John F Kennedy

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

That's basically what happened the first time.

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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.

Posted by Marko Latin on :

I think that wouldn't help them in any way...since the borg already have far more advanced technology that starfleet (okay...maybe not that far)

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Dream on...in the end...dreams are everything...

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Justin: Escape pods have no warp capability. It'd take decades for them to get out of sensor range. Someone had to have picked them up.

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You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

Posted by Justin_Timberland (Member # 236) on :

Omega: What kind of starship could pick up the escape pods? Although, the possibility of shuttles tracktoring them seems plausible. Let's say the ship that survives Wolf 359 was the one that picked up the escape pods, but we don't know what class that ship is. But we don't even know how many survived Wolf 359, much else how many escape pods were launched and survived.

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We did it on the floor,
We did it by the door,
We did it all night,
We did it under a light,
So how about for tonight we do it some more...

Posted by nx001a (Member # 291) on :

Escape pods can survive for a very long time before being picked up. Take the Stargazer escape pods.

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"We set sail on this new sea because their is new knowledge to be gained and new rights to be won" John F Kennedy

members.aol.com/mfwan/index.htm

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

From Picard's statements in "The Battle", the crew drifted in their escape pods (actually, Picard speaks of "shuttles" and not of lifeboats) for several weeks.

It is rather unlikely that the small pods we have seen so far would have independent warp drive. But the ones on the Saratoga are among the very largest. Perhaps they did have warp engines (shuttlecraft-sized but warp-capable nevertheless)? Perhaps lots of people ejected at Wolf 359, but all who had ejected in a non-warp-capable pod were soon killed or assimilated, and only those with shuttlecraft or warp-capable pods survived? That way, one wouldn't need to postulate a starship that would have rescued Sisko before the E-D arrived. (Also, towing of pods by warp-capable shuttles is possible, although I think we have never seen a shuttle equipped with a tractor beam.)

Then again, I see no reason not to postulate such a ship. When the ship sees that all is lost, it scoops up as many pods as it can and withdraws at warp speed, away from the doomed Sol system and under comm silence so as not to tip off the Borg about new assimilation targets. The Endeavour can be one such ship, just as the new Encyclopedia claims - although I'd rather it would have been a less powerful ship, lest it be suspected of deserting the battle.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

The Saratoga's escape pod bugs me a little. It's placed in the section where there would normally be Shuttlebay 1. We see another similar escape pod, but most likely it could not have been from the Saratoga because it still needs that other shuttlebay. Also, because it came from what used to be a shuttlebay, I would surmise that the escape pod is two decks tall and would probabably have a small warp engine.

And look at how they filmed the escape pod ejecting. The entrance is from the starboard and Sisko sits on the port side next to a window. The pod ejects and we see that Sisko looks out toward the Saratoga's aft section. That would mean the pod was facing sideways (foreward section of pod faces Saratoga's starboard). But then the pod's starboard side faces toward space and that's where the entrance is. With that, there's no way people could board the pod from it's starboard side.

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7 alarm clock: "Do not touch me."
Dilbert: "Then how do I turn you off?"
7: "Believe me, I am plenty turned off."

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

I don't see how the pod would be two decks tall or anything near that. It seems to be just like a standard shuttle - barely providing standing room. And the shuttlebays of a Miranda are truly cavernous, at least three decks high. There could easily be half a dozen pods like this hanging from the ceiling of each bay, while still allowing for normal shuttle operations in both bays.

As for the entry door vs. window dilemma... I see none. The model has port and starboard entry doors, but it's impossible to tell if there is a stern window. Let's assume there is one. The one we saw the Saratoga through was not shaped like one of the side windows, after all - it was much bigger.

Obviously, the Runabout set was used for the pod with minor modifications, so there were the side entry doors and the small oval side windows. There were also two blueshirted pilots facing forward (but the Runabout windows were covered - the pilots apparently had only viewscreens). Sisko was facing starboard. A view from bow to stern showed Sisko facing left, staring at nothing, while directly in front of the camera (that is, directly astern) was the big window that showed an aft view and the explosion of the Saratoga.

I guess the pods were lowered from the shuttlebay ceiling to the bay floor, after which people boarded from whichever door was most convenient. Then the pod departed much like a shuttle.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Brown_supahero (Member # 83) on :

I do not consider Saratoga's escape pod and escape pod, it's more of a life boat. escape pod should not hold more than 5 people.

as for the endeavor i do not believe it was at wolf 359. do most of you believe that all one on one confrontations with a borg cube in the vastness of federation space, the borg cube encounters the enterprise. i believe that in the time frame between w359 and first contact, the borg has "probed and proded" the federation. and the endeavour must have been sent out to confront them.

didn't janeway quote aminsov on that particular episode. why would one quote a rescue ship captain on the behavior of the borg. Normally a retrospect quote on the behavior of the enemy has been quoted from a person of great importance and intellegence, a little over qualified for a rescue ship capt..

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Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

The Saratoga's escape pod is an escape pod. Sisko told the Tac Officer to get everyone to the escape pod(s)...though there was only one.

PS: I have yet to learn how to do italics.

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7 alarm clock: "Do not touch me."
Dilbert: "Then how do I turn you off?"
7: "Believe me, I am plenty turned off."

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I've always liked the idea that the survivors were picked up by a handful of civilian vessels that had been unable to escape the system before the Borg arrived. The Borg seem unlikely to attack a few unthreatening ships if they don't want to assimilate them. Of course, I don't remember how much time there was between Starfleet's deciding to make a stand at Wolf 359 and the battle itself. The time would have to be short for any ships to be caught there, I imagine.

Also, Wolf 359 is in the heart of the Federation, more or less. I'm sure there were at least a few ships in the surrounding area that could make a quick dash over to pick up escape pods and be gone before the Enterprise arrived.

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"You are stupid and evil and do not know you are stupid and evil."
--
Gene Ray, Cubic

Posted by Fructose (Member # 309) on :

Sorry to stray back to the wolf 359 deal, but I doubt there were ships hanging out near wolf 359, why didn't they come and lend a hand? The admiral said that 40 was all they could muster I think. So I'm sure they called all the ships near the system to help. And if I saw the borg fighting it up with the fed fleet, I think I would head out of there as fast as I could. And if they couldn't leave the system by the time the borg came there, then they couldn't have left by the time the Ent came, let alone be out of sensor range. I prefer the theory that the one surviving ship took all the escape pods.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I'm not saying they were just hanging around. And they wouldn't have joined the battle because they weren't Starfleet vessels. Just ships that, for one reason or another, couldn't get away in time. Maybe somebody dropped their favored copy of "The Lifecycles of Dorovian Midnight Beetles" and didn't find it until the Borg had arrived. At that point, it might make more sense to power down and hide than to warp away and leave a bright trail.

Regardless, I never meant to imply that the idea was all that logical or necessary. Just that I like it.

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"You are stupid and evil and do not know you are stupid and evil."
--
Gene Ray, Cubic

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Or maybe they were just unarmed.

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Jackson: "Basically, he was the original Satan."
O'Neill: "Well, isn't that special?"
-Stargate SG-1: "Serpent's Song"

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

This sort of takes us to the question "Why Wolf 359"?

My impression was that the system was uninhabited, perhaps even devoid of planets. There would certainly have been some concern by the E-D crew over the fate of the local inhabitants, had there been any. I doubt any civilian starships would have been in the vicinity.

Why did the Cube come to Wolf 359? Why not go around the system? Presumably because the Cube wanted to battle Starfleet in order to assimilate its tactics and weapons.

But why did Starfleet go to Wolf 359? What reason did they have to think that the Cube would stop there? Or fly through that system so that it could be forced to stop? What was special about Wolf 359? AFAIK, it doesn't lie in the direction of Delta quadrant, but more like "northeast" from Earth. Was Jouret IV exactly in that direction (which is usually the direction given for the Romulan Star Empire, as in the DS9 Tech Manual map)? Was Wolf 359 by an incredibel coincidence smack in the middle of the most direct route from Jouret IV to Earth?

(And PopMaze: Why would you say there was only one escape pod? We saw two others fly by as we watched the Saratoga explode. While those may not have been from the Saratoga due to the flightpaths, I'm sure the Saratoga would have launched several pods as well. Sisko probably simply stayed so long with his dead wife that he boarded the very last pod out of the Saratoga.)

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Actually, the delta quadrant would be "northeast" of Earth. I think W359 is more like "southeast". Or at least south-something; whatever it is, it's on the other side of Earth from the DQ.

Personally, I'm guessing that the Borg were using something like the transwarp conduits, but they accidentally missed and ended up on the other side of us. They had to turn around and go through W359 to get to Earth. Either that, or the cube that came to Earth just happened to have previously been on the opposite side from the DQ. When the Borg decided to attack, that cube was closest, so they sent it.

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Jackson: "Basically, he was the original Satan."
O'Neill: "Well, isn't that special?"
-Stargate SG-1: "Serpent's Song"

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

It's also possible that the Borg were taking a somewhat random path around the Federation in order to test their defenses, probe their reactions, and assess the accuracy of the data derived from Locutus.

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"You are stupid and evil and do not know you are stupid and evil."
--
Gene Ray, Cubic

Posted by Fructose (Member # 309) on :

But the admiral said they would meet them there with and hit them with everything they got. Or something like that. So they knew they were going to go through there. A random path wouldn't allow that. Maybe when the Enterprise ran in the beging of BoBW they went way out of the way knowing that it would buy the fleet more time and it would give them a convienent place to meet them. Or maybe they were just close to Wolf 359 and for convience sake they said they were there.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I didn't mean to imply that the Borg wound up at Wolf 359 randomly. I was attempting to explain why the Borg might have found themselves in the position where a straightline course to Earth would take them through the system.

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"You are stupid and evil and do not know you are stupid and evil."
--
Gene Ray, Cubic

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Yes, "southeast", damnit, "southeast". I made a stupid typo. "Northeast" would be exactly where Voyager is coming from. Wolf 359 is more in the direction of the "southern" tip of the Romulan Star Empire as portrayed in the DS9 TM map. "East-southeast" might be the most accurate expression.

I think I like best TSN's idea that the Collective just dialed up the most suitable Cube already in the region, instead of sending one all the way from Delta quadrant. There could easily be unexplored space "east-southeast", especially beyond Romulan space, with Cubes teeming around unbeknownst to the Feds. Who knows, perhaps there might even be a big Borg-assimilated planet there, and this planet is sending all the Cubes that have attacked Earth or scouted around the RNZ.

Even the later "Sector 001 attack" of ST:FC (which this thread is about ) need not necessarily have come from the direction of the Delta quadrant at all. All we know is that the Cube passed Typhon sector, which in turn was "relatively close" to the RNZ. It's all incredibly vague.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

OK - I have two theories.

1. - The Borg wanted to avoid crossing Romulan and Klingon Space... so went around them to come at Earth from the "south"

2. System J25 was beyond the direction of Wolf 359 - and that ship was INDEED the ship they had encountered previously... so ever since its encounter with the E at J25 its been making a Bee-line to Earth.

We never found out where J25 was (cause they hadn't invented the quadrant sys yet) we only know that it took a damn long time to get back to Federation space...

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"Who wouldn't be the one you love
Who wouldn't stand inside your love." - Stand Inside Your Love, The Smashing Pumpkins

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

And when did they start using quadrants?

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Quadrants as we now know then first appeared in TNG "The Price", which predates "BoBW" but not "Q Who?". But by the internal chronology of the Trek universe, they were already in use during ST6:TUC. There is no specific reason to assume that they weren't adopted in 2161 already, with the founding of the Federation - or even earlier than that.

In any case, J-25 cannot be in Delta. It was mere 7,000 ly away from the Federation, and the nearest point of Delta (namely, the galactic center) is 24,000 ly away from Earth. Are we really to believe that the Federation extends as much as 14,000 ly from Earth towards the Delta quadrant? Even the Encyclopedia doesn't make such an outrageous claim. J-25 can easily be in Beta, though.

* * * *

If the Cube met by the E-D at J-25 really was the same that hit Earth in "BoBW", then there's an oddity. Starfleet was surprised by how the attack came earlier than thought (they were obviously thinking that the Cube in "Q Who?" was the nearest to Earth), yet it was obvious that the Cube that performed the attack was not faster than the E-D at all. To the contrary, Riker caught up with it rather easily. If the Cube had a better drive for long-distance travel, why didn't it use that drive on the final leg of its journey?

Earlier, we could speculate that the long-distance drive wouldn't work at short distances. But now we know that transwarp conduits can be erected anywhere, and there is no need to e.g. establish them at both ends before use.

So now there are two choices. Either the Borg at that time did not have transwarp (at least not aboard that specific Cube), or they for some reason volunteered not to use it. The latter seems like the less implausible explanation of the two - but why, oh why would the Borg volunteer that way?

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

OR - yes I have an or - the borg cube had to slow down once it reached the terran system to impulse - presumably...

Maybe this applies for borg travel over big big distances... like how you can't do warp in a solarsystem... (high warp I assume) then maybe to cross vast distances the borg use a 'faster' speed... BUT - it only works in sparsely populated regions of space - with few stellar occurances - a prime case for this would be the 'voids' between arms... ok there might be a few stars - but nothing like in the arms... so once the borg cube reached more stellar dense areas - they can't do the 'super speed' - maybe this is something that stops them from attacking the federation en masse - they have to pass through a few ARMS where they are restricted to speeds like Federation starships. once they get to the 'voids' they can go as fast as they want - but once they get back to the arms - its back down to the ole warp speed - sorta like galactic speed bumps. So from J25 they probably had to cross only one void part - and boom they could have ended up at Jouret - on the edges of Fed space - which also could be restricted by one of these sparse star areas...

I don't know if this is the same was the thing from 'night' in Voyager - since you'd be able to see stars - they'd just be further away - the Voyager thing from night look like swirling light absorbing gas - like a pitch black nebula...

They didn't SPECIFICALLY say in 'night' that it was the 'void' between the galactic arms.

Andrew

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"Who wouldn't be the one you love
Who wouldn't stand inside your love." - Stand Inside Your Love, The Smashing Pumpkins

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Now if that cube in Q Who? was 7000 LY from Fed space, and traveled about the same speed as the E-D, they'd get there around the same time as FC took place, wouldn't they? Hmm...

And if their super-duper fast engine only worked in huge voids, it might concievably be faster to go AROUND the galaxy than through it.

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Posted by 95munrocc on :

This is going back to how Riker caught the Borg ship in "Best of Both Worlds" but didn�t some of the crew beam to the Borg ship before Wolf 359 and do some damage that slowed the Borg ship down? Maybe they did more damage than they thought and the Borg could not regenerate fully or had to prioritise repairs. Perhaps weapons for the battle at Wolf 359. This could mean that they could not go as fast as normal and so Riker caught up?