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Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
I think I’ve figured out which Constitution-class ship is in the Fleet Museum.

Before some folks get into an uproar, I'll tell you what ASSUMPTIONS I am making so that they can save their breath telling me that I'm proceeding on false grounds.

1. Picard's line in "Relics" (TNG) means that there is one Connie in the Fleet Museum that retains it's original (TOS-style) configuration.

2. The Republic mentioned in "Valiant" (DS9) is the same ship as from "Court Martial" (TOS) and TUC, the Constitution-class NCC-1371.

3. All the Constitution-class ships in TUC are refitted types. Specifically the Eagle, Kongo, Endeavour, Republic, and Potemkin.

4. Usually (though not ALWAYS) if we see one ship that carries a name, and then we see a later ship with the same name, it means that the older vessel has been lost/ destroyed.

5. The ship in the fleet museum is not one that we’ve never heard of. (This makes sense since there were established to be only 12 Connies originally, probably with the rest being introduced in two or three subsequent batches, the latter of which would all be refit-types.)

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, here it goes.

Here are all the known Constitution-class vessels:
U.S.S. Constellation, NCC-1017
U.S.S. Constitution, NCC-1700
U.S.S. Defiant, NCC-1764
U.S.S. Eagle, NCC-956
U.S.S. Endeavour, NCC-1895
U.S.S. Enterprise, NCC-1701
U.S.S. Enterprise, NCC-1701-A
U.S.S. Essex, NCC-1697
U.S.S. Excalibur, NCC-1664
U.S.S. Exeter, NCC-1672
U.S.S. Farragut, NCC-1647
U.S.S. Hood, NCC-1703
U.S.S. Intrepid, NCC-1831
U.S.S. Kongo NCC-1710
U.S.S. Lexington, NCC-1709
U.S.S. Potemkin, NCC-1657
U.S.S. Republic, NCC-1371
U.S.S. Yorktown, NCC- 1717
U.S.S. Valiant, NCC-1223

There's also these two ships from the DS9 episode "Sacrifice of Angels," which are Excelsior/Constitution-class and Intrepid/Constitution-class starship Variants, respectively:
U.S.S. Curry, NCC-45617
U.S.S. Voyager, NCC-73602

We can eliminate these bottom two immeadiately. They didn't even exist in the TOS timeframe.

We can further eliminate the Valiant, Defiant, Constellation, Intrepid, and Farragut, as these ships were destroyed in TOS.

We can also eliminate the Enterprise, Constitution, Yorktown, Potemkin, Kongo, Republic, Endeavour, and Eagle, as they were all refitted prior to or during the movie era, with the Yorktown being recommissioned the Enterprise-A, eliminating her as well. The Republic is also known not to be in the Fleet Museum in the TNG era, but to be in use as an Academy trainer ship.

This leaves the following:
Exeter
Excalibur
Essex
Hood
Lexington

Now, all of these names have been attached to other, newer ships from the TNG era, with the exception of one: the Essex. So I postulate that it is the U.S.S. Essex, NCC-1697, that is the Museum Ship from TNG.

What do you guys think?
 


Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
 
In which episode was the Essex mentioned?

Well, and I would delete some ships from your Constitution-class list (Eagle, Endeavor, Essex, Farragut, Intrepid, Kongo, Republic, Yorktown, and Valiant)

[ August 18, 2001: Message edited by: Spike ]


 
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
 
USS Valiant NCC-1223 was never a Constitution class ship.

The USS Voyager NCC-73602 is very different from the Intrepid/Constitution hybrid.

I don't know about the Republic though. On my list she's a Constitution still, until I see evidence otherwise.
 


Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
 
Several of the contenders were also damaged in "The Ultimate Computer." Do you think being involved in that incident would somehow preclude their being put in the museum?

Also, I don't think your assumption 4 is reasonable, because ship names are used all the time without the first ship being destroyed or lost. For example, if the US Navy used such a system, they'd soon run out of ship names.

[ August 18, 2001: Message edited by: Masao ]


 
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
Okay Spike! I'll do it just for you:

ASSUMPTION #5. The numbers and class information in the Encyclopedia are valid.

According to them, the Essex is from "Court Martial" (TOS) its number was on the repair chart.
_______________________________________________

The359: Actually, the Valiant was indeed supposed to be a Connie, according to the Starship list in The Making of Star Trek. Also this is in Franz Joseph's Technical Manual, which of course is non-canon, and inaccurate on the subject of registries, but supports the notion that it was the production staff's intention to heve the Valiant as a Connie.

It's a popular theory that the Intrepid/Constitution from the DS9TM/"A time to Stand" is actually just an inaccurate drawing of the Voyager prototype. I guess that's another assumption I made, but it really doesn't affect the outcome of this deduction.
_________________________________________________

Masao: I know what you're saying, but what I meant was that under these circumstances, the fact that we know of later Excelsiors/Ambassadors/Nebulas for the other ships, but not for the Essex, makes it possible to narrow it down to her.
_________________________________________________

Still not a bad theory though, right?
 


Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
 
Where did we get that USS Voyager NCC-73602? We only saw two kit-bashed ships in the series, the Yeager and the Curry (The good news, is, though, that Starfleet has been producing more Intrepids as evidenced by the Yeagers).
And, all we know is that there were 12 Constitutions as of "Tomorrow is Yesterday," the year 2266. Maybe more were built in the following years?
 
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
 
Veers: The USS Voyager NCC-73602 is the prototype design for what became the Intrepid class. A model was built and can be seen in The Art of Star Trek book. It's similar to how the USS Melbourne design from "BoBW II" was the predecessor to what became the design we see with the Nebula class USS Sutherland.

Anyway, the proto Voyager has quite a similar appearance to one of the kitbashes in the DS9TM - except the actual proto Voyager is certainly no kitbash. It is often assumed that the DS9TM pic represents the proto Voyager and, as such, it is suggested that the model appeared in the background of a DS9 episode (most likely "A Time to Stand").

Of course, I have to wonder why Mim bothered bringing it up in the first place - the proto Voyager obviously has nothing to do with the museum Connie.

[ August 19, 2001: Message edited by: Dax ]


 
Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
 
Monkey, I prefer your theory to that of it being the Republc. The Essex is a good contender, but then again, its still highly likely that there were a great deal more than only the existing Constitutions we know about, for example my conjectural Connie lists speculates a hypothetical 50 Connies.

But I agree that the Essex though is perhaps the only canon Connie that is a reasonable candidate.

[ August 19, 2001: Message edited by: The Red Admiral ]


 
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
 
I agree. I think the Republic is the Connie training ship, and that the Essex might be the one in the museum.
 
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
 
quote:
The Republic mentioned in "Valiant" (DS9) is the same ship as from "Court Martial" (TOS) and TUC, the Constitution-class NCC-1371.

Let's think about this for a second. I realize that a reference by Ron Moore in the Encyclopedia states that he thought the Republic training ship was the original Connie. Playing devil's advocate, let's say he's correct.

Reality check: You're a midshipman, cadet, or whatever in today's U.S. Navy. Your commandant, however, states that your naval training will commence aboard a ship which is over one hundred years old (i.e the late nineteenth century, or the beginning of the twentieth). Pray tell, what exactly would be the point of this training? And where exactly would a ship this old be found to train on in the first place?

IIRC, all Jake said about the Republic was that it hadn't left Earth orbit for fifty years. Wouldn't it more likely be an Excelsior?
 


Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
FYI, Dukkie, modern navy men are often trained aboard old style sailing ships for a preliminary knowledge of sailing. I believe the old U.S.S. COnstitution still serves in such a capacity today, and it is over a hundred years old. It still has not been decommissioned, and still is registered as being on active duty on the navy list.

The Republic is a Star Trek parallel to something which is neither unheard of nor singularly uncommon in real life.
 


Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :
 
The flagship of the United States Navy is the U.S.S. Constitution. It was sailed from Boston to Baltimore during the bicentennial and a couple other special occasions. It may be operated during fleet week, not sure about that.

But more analagous is the USCGC Eagle. A four masted sailing ship that Coast Guard cadets use to train on. Yes, its very old and nothing like cutters today, but cadets still use it to learn the basics of shipboard life and navigation.

A Constitution class vessel would be even more useful for cadets learning the basics of space navigation. Another benefit of living on a hundred year old ship first, it makes you appreciate the state of the art ship that you get assigned to all that more.
 


Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
 
Also, there are a number of Starfleet ships of such an age still in active service. If they can play a active role in the fleet, then they certainly have the ability to train cadets- to get them used to the rudiments of starship operations and life aboard ship.

Some examples of old 23rd century ships still in service include some of the early Constellation classes, and still a number of Oberths, first batch Mirandas and Excelsiors.
 


Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
 
Last time I checked, the USS Excelsior herself was still active making it almost 100 years old.
 
Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
 
Precisely, and I'll warrant there's a few a good older than that still running around out there somewhere...
 
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
 
The Mighty Monkey of Mim is right, provided that the ship in the Museum is technically still in service. Maybe its engines are sometimes powered for flights through the solar system, as Masao suggested it for the Kongo on the SF Museum website.

I like the idea that the Republic is the one from TOS, and I firmly believe that the Enterprise-A is in the museum too (albeit not operational). Puls, there might be several mothballed Constitutions... (BoBW!)

The alleged Intrpid/Conny kitbash is almost definitely the Voyager prototype, and this ship has nothing in common with the Connie.
 


Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
 
The USS Exeter could be the museum ship, since it was abadoned and her entire crew killed. Therefore, Starfleet figured they didn't have enough command officers and crew to restaff the Exeter, they could just put it in the museum.
 
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
Except that there's already been an Ambassador-class Exeter in TNG and DS9...
 
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
 
Your point? If a ship's in a museum, it obviously is no longer in service. I mean, the Battleship USS North Carolina is a museum, but there is a Submarine USS North Carolina in service...
 
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
 
I don't think that they would bring a ship back if it had been abandoned and its crew killed. This will no doubt contadict the "Ahwahnee in 'Redemtion'" fact, but I don't know if that is the one from BoBW. I think its more reasonable to think its a new ship, but the regisrty is the same, so I would like the idea of Starfleet repairing old ships from Wolf 359.
 
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:
Except that there's already been an Ambassador-class Exeter in TNG and DS9...

VOY Non Sequitur, DS9 You Are Cordially Invited, and DS9 In The Pale Moonlight

[ August 19, 2001: Message edited by: Spike ]


 
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
Veers, it's not the same ship. It has a different registry. The one from BoBW is NCC-73260. The one from Redemption is NCC-71260.

Besides, the only ship that survived 359 was the Nebula-class Endeavour.
 


Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
 
Ugh...

You're digging up all the mistakes we try to quietly sweep under the carpet, Monkey...

Besides, going strictly CANON, the Endeavour was never at Wolf 359. Janeway never mentioned that Captain Amisov had even encountered the Borg.
 


Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
quote:
You're digging up all the mistakes we try to quietly sweep under the carpet, Monkey...

They're not mistakes and they don't belong under there.

You have forgotten two important facts about me, The359. One, that I do not believe that registry numbers are sequential. Two, that I trust what's in the Encyclopedia.
 


Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
 
What do registry numbers have to do with the Endeavour? Also, if you trust what's in the Encyclopedia, then the USS Raman is NCC-599....whatever that wrong registry was. The Encyclopedia merely assumed, like it has done before. Remember, we;ve known other ships to encounter the Borg at places BESIDES Wolf 359. The Tombaugh. The Excalibur. There is no reason to assume that the Endeavour was at Wolf 359.

Also, going back to the "Voyager kitbash", just because we suddenly get a ship that looks like it in the DS9TM means in NO WAY that it is marked USS Voyager NCC-73602 or anything like that. In fact, there is no reason to believe it was even shown on screen...
 


Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:

Before some folks get into an uproar, I'll tell you what ASSUMPTIONS I am making so that they can save their breath telling me that I'm proceeding on false grounds.

I'm going to comment on your assumptions. Just because I can

quote:

1. Picard's line in "Relics" (TNG) means that there is one Connie in the Fleet Museum that retains it's original (TOS-style) configuration.


Agreed.

quote:

2. The Republic mentioned in "Valiant" (DS9) is the same ship as from "Court Martial" (TOS) and TUC, the Constitution-class NCC-1371.

There's no on screen evidence that the TOS Republic is a Constitution. There's no on screen evidence that the ship mentioned in DS9 is the same as the ship mentioned in TOS.

quote:

3. All the Constitution-class ships in TUC are refitted types. Specifically the Eagle, Kongo, Endeavour, Republic, and Potemkin.

We don't have any way of knowing that. The Eagle was shown on a chart but the othsrs could be pre-refit.

quote:

4. Usually (though not ALWAYS) if we see one ship that carries a name, and then we see a later ship with the same name, it means that the older vessel has been lost/ destroyed.


Isn't it enough to say that the previous ship has been removed from service?

Even if museum ships are still technically in commission in Starfleet (another assumption) there's no reason why that should prevent another ship having the same name - in 1917 the USS Constitution was renamed Old Constitution so that a new battle cuiser could be called Constitution. The battle cruiser programme was later cancelled the the original name restored.

quote:

5. The ship in the fleet museum is not one that we’ve never heard of. (This makes sense since there were established to be only 12 Connies originally, probably with the rest being introduced in two or three subsequent batches, the latter of which would all be refit-types.)

There was 'a dozen like her in the fleet' in TOS season one. That says nothing about how many were lost prior to TOS season one, nor about how many were built after TOS season one.

quote:

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, here it goes.

Here are all the known Constitution-class vessels:
U.S.S. Constellation, NCC-1017
U.S.S. Constitution, NCC-1700
U.S.S. Defiant, NCC-1764
U.S.S. Eagle, NCC-956
U.S.S. Endeavour, NCC-1895
U.S.S. Enterprise, NCC-1701
U.S.S. Enterprise, NCC-1701-A
U.S.S. Essex, NCC-1697
U.S.S. Excalibur, NCC-1664
U.S.S. Exeter, NCC-1672
U.S.S. Farragut, NCC-1647
U.S.S. Hood, NCC-1703
U.S.S. Intrepid, NCC-1831
U.S.S. Kongo NCC-1710
U.S.S. Lexington, NCC-1709
U.S.S. Potemkin, NCC-1657
U.S.S. Republic, NCC-1371
U.S.S. Yorktown, NCC- 1717
U.S.S. Valiant, NCC-1223


Valiant was lost 50 years prior to TOS. So either the Constitution class is much older than commonly held (and in fact is slightly older than 'The Making of Star Trek' and fan speculation had it) or the Valiant is not a Constitution.

For some of the above there's no on screen evidence that they are Constitutions. Merely long standing speculation by fans (and production staff).

quote:

There's also these two ships from the DS9 episode "Sacrifice of Angels," which are Excelsior/Constitution-class and Intrepid/Constitution-class starship Variants, respectively:
U.S.S. Curry, NCC-45617
U.S.S. Voyager, NCC-73602


Why bother mentioning these? If any ship that uses Constitution components is relevant then why not list all the Mirandas and Sydneys?

quote:

We can further eliminate the Valiant, Defiant, Constellation, Intrepid, and Farragut, as these ships were destroyed in TOS.


No evidence that the Farragut was destroyed, merely speculation. More likely that the Exeter was abandoned (how would they decomtaminate her?) or that one or more of the 'Ultimate Computer' ships were scrapped following their mauling by M-5.
 


Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :
 
If you were in charge of Starfleet Ops, would you scrap a starship that was just damaged? No, you send her to Spacedock, mourn the crew, and go on with your life. Like Wally Schirra once said (in reference to the Apollo 1 fire): "You don't wear the black armband forever." Bottom line is its the largest, most powerful ship in existence at the time, and I wouldn't scrap it because it's crew was gone in either case of the Exeter or M5 one.
 
Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stingray:
If you were in charge of Starfleet Ops, would you scrap a starship that was just damaged?

Depends how badly damaged the ship is. If the spaceframe has been compromised to such an extent that any attempt to go above warp 2.6 shakes her apart then it may be cheaper to scrap her and build a new one.

In the case of the Exeter the ship is completely intact. But is contaminated with a disease, the only cure for which is to spend time on the planet. How do you use that ship again? Maybe pumping all the air out and/or exposing the ship to radiation will kill the disease. Maybe it won't.

Nothing is repairable for ever.
 


Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
 
The Encyclopedia never states that the Endeavour was, in fact, the sole survivor of Wolf 359. It says, quote "The Endeavour appears to be the sole survivor of Wolf 359, although this was not explicitly established in any episode." Then it says, "It therefore seems likely that the Endeavour (and Asamov) were also at Wolf 359 in 2367."
That is the equivalent of saying there is a possibility it was at Wolf 359, and it MAY be the surviving vessel.
Not, "it definitely is."
 
Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
 
Wasn't there a moment in Voyager where Janeway was going over certain Captain's logs which involved Borg encounters? Picard was one, and I'm sure Amazov was the other. I think the episode was 'Scorpion'. I could be wrong with this though....
 
Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :
 
You have a point, but I seriously doubt it was that damaged. When the damage becomes that severe, it would be destroyed.

As for the Exeter, if I were running the show, I would do everything in my power to not just waste a Constitution class starship in perfect working order. Sometimes people don't have a concept of how hard it must be to build a starship from scratch (part of why I personally prescribe to the ultra-small Starfleet theory).

Really, there would be SOME way of removing the virus. I don't think at three o'clock on a Friday afternoon the engineers said, "Aw, the hell with it. We'll just build another one over the weekend."
 


Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
 
Yes, Red Admiral, there is a time when Janeway does that. It is "Scorpion," the third season finale. That's where the Endeavour debate started. Amasov is that ship's captain.
 
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
 
As I pointed out, other ships have had "brief" encounters with the Borg at places besides Wolf 359. The Tombaugh was caught by the Borg before Wolf 359, and the Excalibur had some crew assimilated. The same could have happened to the Endeavour.
 
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
 
IIRC the only thing mentioned was, what Amasov thinks about the Borg. The Endeavour could have been a rescue ship after the Battle of Wolf 359 and Amasov saw what the Borg did with the fleet.
 
Posted by targetemployee (Member # 217) on :
 
There are two things that we are certain about-
a ship did survive the battle
this same ship rescued survivors from Sisko's ship
 
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
 
quote:
this same ship rescued survivors from Sisko's ship

How do you know this?
 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Also keep in mind that we know the Borg had other ships active in or around Federation space after Wolf 359. It's not impossible some ship not named Enterprise had a run-in with one of these vessels.
 
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
 
Escape pods. I guess it is likely they got rescued by a ship, but its possible they got away to a starbase or Earth or something.

Borg Ship:
Drone 1: There goes another one.
Drone 2: Hold your fire. Benjamin Sisko is on that escape pod. They need him for a series.
(reminisent of a scene from Star Wars ANH?)
 


Posted by targetemployee (Member # 217) on :
 
When the USS Enterprise NCC-1701-D enters the grave yard in "The Best of the Both Worlds, Part 2", her sensors detected no life signs. If there were space normal life pods in the debris, the starship's sensors would have noted the space crafts. The absence of these space crafts is circumstantial proof that an unnamed starship 'scooped up' the life pods.
 
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
That's the most reasonable explanation. We could also speculate that the lifeboats were in fact left to their own devices, and the Borg assimilated or destroyed most of them. A select few survived because they managed to fool Borg sensors - and they kept on fooling the sensors when the E-D arrived, since they did not trust that this was a real starship. Perhaps the Borg had gotten a few of the camouflaged pods assimilated by sending out fake Starfleet signals?

Timo Saloniemi
 


Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
 
Let's see...11,000 lives lost, 39 ships. Add the crew totals together based on estimates, and what do you get?
Beats me.
 
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
 
The escape pods could have left the area, heading for the nearest planet in the Wolf 359 system.
 
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
Assuming that the system had any planets. And the E-D had displayed the ability to scan an entire star system for small vessels before, and then to ascertain if there were lifesigns aboard. Why was the ability not there this time?

Might it be that the ship just couldn't do this in the reverse order? Perhaps there was too much debris there to locate a lifepod through ship-locating sensors, and the life-locating sensors in turn could not work at multi-AU distances unless first cued to their target by the ship-locating ones.

Timo Saloniemi
 


Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
Well if we already know that one starship survived, and that we know there were no lifesigns or active...*something or other* fields then that ship must have left the system before the E-D arrived.
We also know that there were escape pods containing survivors and they did not appear to be any hanging around when the E-D arrived, so it seams reasonable to assume that the surviving ship was the one that picked everyone up before it left the system, rather than abandon them.
The Real question is, which ship was this?
The Endevour is the only known candidate, at least as far as I am aware.
This could also provide a nice tie-in to First Contact, in that the Endevour was present at that battle too (acording to radio chatter if that nebbie wasn't labled as such), and the reason for it's presence was that starfleet wanted a ship experinced in fighting the borg but didn't quite trust Picard.

This is all speculation but it fits rather nicely and its not an overly complex theory.
 


Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
 
IIRC, a new ship class was to be designed for the Endeavour, that of a "Nebularized" Sovereign. But alas, as with the Zandura, the ship never materialized on screen.
 
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
But because it never materialized, the Endeavour mentioned is the same ship we've always heard of. (A Nebula.) I think that the Nebula we actually see is the Lexington.
 
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
 
I see absolutely no reason for the Endeavour to be tied to Wolf 359 just because Captain Amisov had a log that talked about the Borg. Maybe he made it when reports came through about the aftermath of Wolf 359, or any Borg incident, and was just expressing his opinion on the situation!
 
Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :
 
Oh come on people. Its a big story. Until we know otherwise, we can make up any story we want. We know one ship survived. We know Amasov is a starship captain and that he has a well respected opinion of the Borg.

The rest is left for us to fill in. There are no definitive answers. So whatever is the most interesting story to us, is for the time being (and likely forever), is what 'actually' happened.

You can say Amasov is some guy flying a POS Miranda somewhere or you can have some goddamn imagination and just go along with somebody's interesting interpretation or make something up on your own.
 


Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
But why would Janeway be reviewing Amasov's logs, if he'd just been on the sidelines? It makes more sense if he was in a major engagement with the Borg -- and was notable as the only captain who got his ship out intact. The survivor of a massacre like Wolf 359 would give him that kind of fame.

Now, I'm not discounting the possibility that there was some other incident -- that's certainly possible too.

But remember that Starfleet downgraded the Borg threat after the first big invasion, since they believed that another wouldn't come for a while. But they wouldn't do that if the Borg were still attacking Starfleet ships between 2368 and 2371.
 


Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
 
quote:
But why would Janeway be reviewing Amasov's logs, if he'd just been on the sidelines?

Maybe she was reviewing every log about the Borg and thought Amasov's log entry was the best Borg-description.
 


Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
 
I agree with Minutatie Man (is that spelled right?).
 
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
 
There is still no proof that any ship survived Wolf 359. I personally believe the Ahwahnee did (registry be damned), but I think Endeavour had absolutely nothing to do with the battle.
 
Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
 
We know that 39 ships were destroyed at Wolf 359, and I'm sure the figure of 40 participating in the battle has been mentioned, or is it just a fan myth? Either way I have to agree with Minutiae Man, in that it is unlikely Amasov participated in another Borg incursion. Any Borg presence in Federation space is major news, Picard himself in First Contact referred to the Borg attack as something he'd dreaded for 6 years. So it's probable they were the only ones, (the First Contact incident and Wolf 359).

The other alternative is the Endeavour engaged the Borg at another point between New Providence and the final battle at Wolf 359.
 


Posted by Mr. Christopher (Member # 71) on :
 
The Endeavour could have experienced the same thing as the Lalo, only luckier.
 
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
 
As I mentioned before (and this will be, what, the 3rd time?), the Borg have had incidents with other ships plenty of other times. Tombaugh and Excalibur had seperate incidents that were in no way related to Wolf 359 or Sector 001.
 
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
As a matter of interest, exactly where were the starships Tombaugh and Excalibur when they encountered the borg? was it even mentioned?
if not then they could also have possibly been at wolf 359....or not.
 
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
 
I know for a fact that a date was mentioned for one, if not both Tombaugh and Excalibur. I know that the date was around the 2350s. Tombaugh was mentioned in the episode where Seven gets all the assimilated voices in her mind. I forget which episode Excalibur is mentioned in. The Excalibur I seem to remember just said she had lost 9 or so crewmembers.
 
Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
 
In this case maybe there was indeed some other more minor incident. Remember 'I Borg', and the two parter 'Descent'? Although these events involved the Borg they were not related to a major, all out attack of the Federation. So in truth there probably were additional ones involving ships other than the Enterprise-D.
 
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
 
Red Admiral, they mentioned the 40 ship thing in "Best of Both Worlds." The episode that started it all...
 
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
I believe someone said they were going to assemble a fleet of 40 ships. It was never said whether that many or more or fewer actually showed up, or whether that was even supposed to be an exact figure in the first place.
 
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
 
Well they did say in "The Drumhead" that 39 ships were destroyed at Wolf 359. This could be taken to mean that there were only 39 ships in the battle and all were destroyed, or that there WERE 40 ships like Hanson said, and one escaped. One could reasonably assume that if this were the case, this lone surviving ship rescued the escape pods from other ships, then hightailed it out of there before the Enterprise arrived.

The only candidates for this mystery ship so far are the Endeavour & Excalibur (both from spoken dialogue in reference to an engagement with the Borg) or the Ahwahnee (from a display, albeit w/ a different registry #). The Tombaugh was assimilated years before Wolf 359. But as far as we know, it might have been a different ship entirely. Hell, it could have been the Bellerophon or the Yamaguchi. We didn't actually see them get destroyed, only entering the battle...

[ August 24, 2001: Message edited by: Dukhat ]


 
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
 
OK, I found the episodes. Excalibur was mentioned in Voyager's "Survival Instinct" and the Tombaugh was mentioned in Voyager's "Infinate Regress". She was commanded by Captain Blackwell.
 
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
I checked the transcript from "Survival Instinct" for references to the Excalibur (from Jim Wright's review), and there wasn't much, aside from that the the Bajoran woman was an engineer.

However, we do know that this almost certainly has to be the same Excalibur we saw in "Redemption, Part II." Eight years before 2376 is 2368. So the little incident took place after Wolf 359.

Consider on top of that that the Excalibur was undergoing a major refit/repair at the Starbase, a repair so major that the entire crew had been reassigned.

It's a leap of logic, I admit, but I believe that Excalibur was one of the ships at Wolf 359, and was recovered after the battle like the Ahwahnee.
 


Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
 
Veers, I of course knew of the reference in 'The Best of Both Worlds' I just couldn't remember if it was in relation to 39 ships being destroyed, or 40 ships having taken part in the battle.

I just couldn't remember off the top of my head whether '40 ships' was an actual line, an obscure reference in another episode or simply hearsay. Thanks for clearing it up.
 


Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
 
OK, Red Admiral.
 
Posted by MeGotBeer (Member # 411) on :
 
quote:
that the entire crew had been reassigned.

Granted, I'm not 100% up on the dialogue, but wasn't it that most of the crew -- including the senior staff -- had been reassigned ... ?
 




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