Flare Sci-Fi Forums: What came First

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Posted by Face (Member # 418) on :

I was woundering, what starship did Starfleet comissioned first? the Intrepid-class or the Sovereign-class.

Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :

I would have to say Intrepid. On my site I listed it as being commissioned in 2368, and the Sovereign in 2372. But those are my views, because there aren't any real canon dates for these, as yet.

Posted by USS Vanguard (Member # 130) on :

The chicken

Posted by Soundwave (Member # 138) on :

The chicken? Are you mad. I think everybody knows that it was a woorgle beast from the area now know as Maine that ate a pterodactylus and laid an egg. Then the egg became fossilized until Frank discovered it in 1983 in his backyard when it hatched a chicken.

As for the Intrepid... I'd say first. At the time it was nearly completed the admiral said it featured the EMH which Starfleet started putting on its other ships.

[ September 23, 2001: Message edited by: Soundwave ]

Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :

The fanboys came first...

In all seriousness, I'd have to say the Intrepid class entered service first. In one of the TNG episodes, LaForge was having an engine-efficiency battle going on with the chief engineer of the USS Intrepid. Now, this could have been the old Excelsior on her final mission or the new Intrepid on trial runs. Either way, though, it could have been possible for that class to enter service within TNG's time frame.

The Sovereign seems to be a more advanced ship. The Sickbay modules are identical, and both come equipped with an EMH program. But Voyager (or was it Intrepid class?) was the testbed for the system. The Sovereign has the capability to fire quantum torpedoes, while the Intrepid does not. Of course, a small explorer like the Intrepid may not need those powerful weapons.

Aside from my ramblings, it's too close to really tell. Plus, there are no canon dates for construction and entering service. Both were probably in development for a while, though.

[ September 23, 2001: Message edited by: Siegfried ]

Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :

Voyager was one of the original series of Intrepid-class ships built, commissioned in 2371, shortly before it was lost.

The Enterprise-E was the second vessel built of the Sovereign class, and was built in 2372.

Seems pretty clear to me.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Erm... Except that you made most of that up...

Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :

Only the second part. 50% ain't too bad.

Posted by NightWing (Member # 4) on :

(EDIT: Dates were wrong!)

Seven of Nine knew about the First Contact incident, and she joined Voyager at the end of season 3/beginning season 4, which is end 2372/begining 2373.

So the Enterprise-E commission date is the beginning of the year 2372 at most. It cannot be later than that, since they were in service for a year in First Contact.

As for it's earliest commission date: There is a gap of a few months between "All Good Things..." and "Caretaker". So the Enterprise-E could have been commissioned just before Voyager, but mere weeks at best.

I do however remember making a timeline of my own once in which I had put the destruction of the Enterprise-D after Voyager went to the Delta Quadrant.

Well, I think it's time to re-watch some movies and see if there are any stardates given.

[ September 24, 2001: Message edited by: NightWing ]

Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :

Voyager was commissioned in 2371, around stardate 48300.something (or at least thats when they were testing the doctor.. the ship actually could have been around for a while)
> My statement about it being in the first run of intrepids came from Rick Sternbach's newsgroup writings (about the registry of the Intrepid), so it may be contradicted. But Voyager was still fairly new, based on Stadi's comments to Paris in caretaker.

The Enterprise-D was destroyed on stardate 48600.something.. stardate given in the movie, in a log entry but i dont have it at my fingertips right now. Thats a third of a year AFTER Voyager was lost.
And, at least according to supposition in the chronology, there was a period of 'down time' and the E-D crew didnt get a ship til 2372, probably in the first half of the year. So the new Enterprise was commissioned almost a year after Voyager was lost
> My statement about it being the second Sovereign was supposition, but is the most likely explanation why there are no Sovereign-class ships common.

But the fact remains that in real life, the Sovereign was designed at paramount pictures about a year and a half after the intrepid was designed at paramount pictures, and was intended to look much more advanced if that helps.

What does seven of nine have to do with it.. i dont get that?

Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :

As for First Contact, i dont recall a stardate for that one, but it takes place sometime after the DS9 episode 'Rapture' when they began using the grey uniforms, in the last half of the fifth season. That runs concurrent with the last half of Voyager's third season.

From the plaques:
Enterprise-E was launched on SD 49027.5.. January, 2372 .. a year and a half before First Contact (which took place in late 2373 according to the above evidence)

Voyager was launched on SD 48038.5.. a couple months before testing the doctor and getting lost, shortly after AGT and half a year before Generations, and almost exactly one year before the E-E commissioning and two and a half years before First Contact.

Seven of Nine joined in the beginning of season 4, which corresponds to 2374, and would be at least a few months after first contact

[ September 24, 2001: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

The Seven of Nine remark comes from "Year of Hell". She knew about 21st century events in First Contact. She didn't mention the E-E, though and it's unclear as to whether or not she knew anything about the "modern day" battle portion of First Contact.

Posted by NightWing (Member # 4) on :

I assumed Seven did know of the Sector 001 battle, since the Queen failed to send a message in the past.

And I thought she mentioned the Enterprise, or at least the fact that they were stopped...

Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :

Seven knew of the sector 001 battle in late 2373 through the Borg unimind probably, and still carried the knowledge after 2374 when she joined Voyagers crew. She would have been separated from the borg mind at the very end of the year or the beginning of the next, depending on what the VGR stardate was, but the FC battle (the producers said what episodes it was supposed to be inbetween once, but i forgot) was about 2/3 or 3/4 of the way through the year.
There's precedent for Borg escaping the destruction of their cubes.. remember drones from Wolf 359 and other Alpha Quadrant battles were transported back to the Delta Quadrant (Frazer from Unity, Wilkarah, etc...)
***very Minor Endgame spoiler, but only if you didnt read who the Guest stars were****
$

$
And even though the Enterprise-E destroyed the cube and the sphere, they probly still got word back to the Borg through the queen (since the 'Alice Krige' queen survived to be in 'Endgame')

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

For those who don't know, there's evidence late in VOY's run that stardates don't conform to the xx000 == January 1, xx999 == December 31 scheme. The suggestion is that xx000 is actually around the middle of a calendar year.

I suggest that, from now on, rather than converting the dates, we could start referring to stardate years. So, for example, if the E-E was launched on SD49027.5, we could just say "the beginning of year 49", rather than "January 2372" (since it might have actually been something like July). If we want to be kind of cheesy, we could even say "staryear 49". And, since the hundreds place is a '0', it's the first tenth (best not to call it a month).

I'll go back and convert the stuff that's been talked about here:

SY48:
1st tenth: VOY launched
4th tenth: VOY lost in DQ
7th tenth: E-D destroyed
SY49:
1st tenth: E-E launched
SY50:
9th tenth: FC
SY51:
1st tenth: Seven leaves collective
3rd-5th tenths: "Year of Hell"

[ September 24, 2001: Message edited by: TSN ]

Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :

Well it still falls in the same order that way..

What is the evidence that the SD system has shifted anyway? Id be interested to know

Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :

Surely the point of this thread is to do with the Intrepid Class' first commissioning versus the Sovereign Class' first commissioning. 'When' Voyager and the Enterprise-E were launched is largely irrelevant in regards to Face's initial query, as it stands to reason they were not the first ships of their classes. USS Intrepid and USS Sovereign were, and when they were commissioned in relation to each other we have no canon evidence. But I stand by the convictions that it probably was the Intrepid.

Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :

My only reason for bringing it up is that both the Voyager and E-E got 'oohs' and 'aahs' from most people who saw them because they were so state of the art, indicating they were some of the first vessels of their respective classes.

If we could assume that they were both from the original production run of their classes, and were commissioned at or near the same time as the class ship was completed or at least when the class ship completed spaceworthiness trials.

But thats really 'if we could assume'

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I know they're in the same order. I was just pointing out a better way to label them.

The evidence for a different stardate system is in one of the last few episodes of VOY. They celebrate "First Contact Day", or some such thing, which is supposed to be the anniversary of Terro-Vulcan first contact (which we know, from the movie of the same name, was in April). But this episode is late in the season. So, apparently, the VOY writers have now decided that the episodes of a season more closely fit around the time of year that they air, rather than a season showing events from January to December.

Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :

Eh.. thats an old story.. and not really proof of much anyway.. there was the same problem with Molly's birthday when she moved from TNG to DS9.. and the producers didnt make a concious decision to shift the stardate system, they just produced a script in the order they got it.
I think they fired the guy they had keep track of the stardates on Next Generation, because after DS9 started nobody thought they were important anymore (especially since okuda's chronology suggests that not only do they sometimes go out of order, but they actually dont occur in order ever.. see the TOS section)

ill try not to think of it..

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Umm, isn't the majority of evidence on Stardates actually supporting the idea that the SD year begins when the fall season begins, and ends when the spring season cliffhanger ends? That is, people of Earth descent shout "Happy New Year" at SD XX500 or so, not at SD XX000?

The Borg attack of TNG season 3/4 turnover came when the Picard vineyard was experiencing what looked like late summer (the exact positioning of constellation Orion notwithstanding). The Thanksgiving came in midseason, TOS 1st season (let's forget about the TOS stardates for now, though). I'm sure there's a DS9 reference as well, if I dig deeply enough.

It's just that Trek has always been produced so that the season began when the summer ended. It's not something specific to VOY, and it's highly unlikely that the writers would have fought against this reality in the previous shows and then suddenly dropped the pretense just for VOY.

Timo Saloniemi