So now that leaves the question of why those in service during the 2260's did not have them.
-MMoM 
No clue why the other ones have those added engines.
I'll explain to you why the D-7 in TOS is missing its impulse drive exhausts if you explain to me why the Akiraprise has blue-glowy nacelles while other TOS Fed ships didn't. Also note that the D-7 in 2150 has glowy nacelles, while the one in 2260 didn't.
*hums Klingon theme* Dada da da da da da dada da daaaaa.....
Almost as inexplicable as cars not having tailfins, then having tailfins in the 50s, and then returning to not having tailfins?
Dammit! I want a car with tailfins!!!! MOMMY, BUY ME ECTO-1!!!!
Also, to my knowledge the term K'tinga has never been used in canon Trek. Yet we have had D7 canonized numerous times now.
Unless the impulse engines that are in the position not seen on the TOS version are hidden like the Defiant's or the Enterprise-Nil!?! (Although they weren't REALLY hidden there did appear to be some sort of grill.)
Andrew
quote:
Originally posted by David Templar:
I'll explain to you why the D-7 in TOS is missing its impulse drive exhausts if you explain to me why the Akiraprise has blue-glowy nacelles while other TOS Fed ships didn't.
Enterprise isn't a TOS Fed ship, it is a pre-TOS Earth ship... lo and behold, the only other canon pre-TOS Earth ship, the Pheonix, has blue-glowy nacelles.
Canonically, here's the list of on-screen Klingon ships (not counting Birds of Prey, Vor'cha, etc.)
1. The original TOS battlecruiser, which was never given an on-screen name or class.
2. The TMP Klingon battlecruiser, which was never given an on-screen class. This ship was used again in TWOK, TNG, & DS9.
3. The Klingon battlecruiser featured in "Trials & Tribble-ations," which was canonically referred to as a D-7.
4. The Klingon battlecruiser featured in both that final-season Voyager episode, and "Unexpected" which is a CGI model, I believe (not sure about this one). I don't remember if a class was given in the Voyager ep, but it wasn't given in the Enterprise ep.
So, here's my take as to why the ship we saw in Enterprise looks more advanced than the ships we see in TOS: Because the TOS ships were D-4's! (Or any combination of the letter D with a number less than 7). The "Unexpected" ship could have been brand spanking new for all we know, and during TOS, the Klingons could still have been flying older model ships. It just happened that the only TOS Klingon ships we saw were very old ones. It would also explain why the Klingons traded their older ships to the Romulans, instead of their top-of-the-line D-7's.
Note: I realize that my theory goes against fandom and Encyclopedia speculation that the TOS ships were D-7's. I'm just going by canon facts & trying to find a reasonable solution.
quote:
Originally posted by Dukhat:
Canonically, here's the list of on-screen Klingon ships (not counting Birds of Prey, Vor'cha, etc.)1. The original TOS battlecruiser, which was never given an on-screen name or class.
2. The TMP Klingon battlecruiser, which was never given an on-screen class. This ship was used again in TWOK, TNG, & DS9.
3. The Klingon battlecruiser featured in "Trials & Tribble-ations," which was canonically referred to as a D-7.
4. The Klingon battlecruiser featured in both that final-season Voyager episode, and "Unexpected" which is a CGI model, I believe (not sure about this one). I don't remember if a class was given in the Voyager ep, but it wasn't given in the Enterprise ep.
Unfortunately, it muddles things up quite a bit that the "Unexpected" (ENT) ship was, in fact, called a D7 in "Prophecy" (VGR), despite being different from Greg Jein's D7 in "Trials and Tribble-ations" (DS9).
You can also, if you wish, add the D-5 referred to in "Once More Into the Breach" (DS9) as Kor's old I.K.S. Klothos, referring to the Klothos actually seen in "The Time Trap" (TAS). It looks just like the original series ship with an extruded forward torpedo tube and minor details.
Of course, for all we know, Kor commanded an older D5 Klothos (mentioned in Deep Space Nine) before being promoted to a battlecruiser that he renamed in honor of his old ship (in the animated series). Or if you don't care for the animated series, he could have still commanded a D5 before whatever unseen and unnamed ship he operated from in "Errand of Mercy" (TOS).
quote:
Originally posted by Dukhat:
Note: I realize that my theory goes against fandom and Encyclopedia speculation that the TOS ships were D-7's. I'm just going by canon facts & trying to find a reasonable solution.
That's the way to do it. Anyone know what the rear of Greg Jein's updated D7 looks like?
BTW, why cant they all be D7s?
The Constitution-class refers to a wide range of ships, from April/Pike era 1701 with tall bridge dome and nacelle spires all the way through a couple modifications on TOS, to the TMP refit, which is almost a completely different vessel which shares the same planform but wildly different hull details.
D7 could be a catch all term referring to that size, configuration and planform. Within that, modifications could be referred to with different class names, such as 'K't'inga' being one modification.
Actually this is pretty much the only explanation considering of the four or five ships weve seen of the same basic design, the first and middle ones have both been referred to as D7
Chronologically
1) 22nd century battlecruiser: Moderately detailed hull, glowy impuse decks, rear torp launcher. Seen in 'Unexpected' and that Voyager episode, where it was called a D7.
2) 23rd century battlecruiser: Low hull detail. Few visible ports, possibly a similar vessel but lightly equipped for different mission profiles. Seen in 'Enterprise Incident' and 'Elaan of Troyius'
2a) 23rd century battlecruiser: Low hull detail, but more detailed than '2.' Intended to represent the same vessel, used in 'Trials & Tribbleations' Explicitly referred to as D7. Some could infer that it was built not as a variant of that vessel, but as a clarification and represents the exact same class and design.
3) Late 23rd century battlecruiser: Highly detailed hull.. Lots of technology added to same basic planform. Rear launcher, no glowy impulse engines. Referred to as 'K't'Inga' class by Gene Roddenberry's novelization. If Gene wrote it, I'll believe that what its called. This same footage was reused in ST:II and a couple TNG episodes. We must infer this specific modification remains in use that long.
3a) Late 23rd century battlecruiser: Modifications of this design were used with new paint scheme and extra/different colored lights in ST:6 and presumably post 'Way of the Warrior' DS9 eps. Intended to represent much the same ship. Dates range 2293-2370s. Its not clear if these appearances were the same model or a new one or even if the ST:VI ship and the WotW ship are the same model.
"Trials & Tribbleations": No rear tube, no glowy things. Looks much like the 'Enterprise Incident' screencap from before. The only real difference is the addition of slight deflector gridlines. There is really no doubt in my mind this is intended to represent the same modification as the TOS appearances, which were none too clear.
I also noticed tht Jein labeled the ship with different Klingonese characters on the wing, which distracts from something id discovered when studying the issue earlier. I looked at the old model's labels and then translated the characters using the Klingon alphabet from Drexler's Officers Manual.
What did they say?
I'm not telling, because if i did then someone wouls start scremaing and crying yelling 'THat's not canon!!! waaaa waaaa waa!!!!' with tears running down their face and snot running out their nose as they vainly tried to understand how i could possibly buy and read a publication that Paramount didnt gift wrap for them.
But its interesting..
"Enterprise isn't a TOS Fed ship, it is a pre-TOS Earth ship... lo and behold, the only other canon pre-TOS Earth ship, the Pheonix, has blue-glowy nacelles."
You forget the Daedalus. Or, to be strictly canonical, the USS Horizon. Although, to be fair, colored photos in the Encyclopedia suggest that the aft ends of those nacelles do, in fact, glow blue.
[ November 12, 2001: Message edited by: Masao ]
), but some of the spoiler titles are getting a little bit out of hang. I don't find anything wrong with this one, but let's not give out any more detail, okay? "ENT OH MY GOD HE'S GAY (spoilers)" for instance is a bit too far.
Of course, when talking about a big arc for a character, a spoiler warning might be called for. "Picard gets turned into a Borg and has psychological problems!" would've been spoiler neccessary, don't you think?
Here's the battlecruisers we've seen in chronological Trek time:
1.) 2150 ship from "Unexpected" (ENT) with rear impulse engines, (and torp tube??) no class verbally identified.
2.) The TOS ship with no rear impulse engines, established by Okuda to be D-7 class and verbally mentioned onscreen as D-7 in "Trials + Tribble-ations" (DS9).
3.) TAS cruiser with no rear impulse engines, identical to D-7 exept for protrusions on forward pod and neck. Identified verbally as D-5 class in "Once More Unto the Breach" (DS9).
4.) TMP/TUC/TNG/DS9 cruiser with different forward pod, rear impulse engines and torp tube, and voluminous greeblies and such on hull. Established to be K't'inga class originally in Gene Roddenberry's novelisation, later by Okuda in Encyclopedia and by Sternbach in DS9 Technical Manual, though not as yet spoken onscreen.
5.) Cruiser from "Prophecy" (VGR) explicitly caled D-7 in dialogue, with K't'inga-like features such as rear impulse engines and torp tube.
So, we're in a bit of a muddle. I'd be inclined to say it's the same deal as w/the Miranda, and that the D-7 just has some variants, at least one of which resembles the K't'inga.
-MMoM
quote:
Originally posted by TSN:
You forget the Daedalus. Or, to be strictly canonical, the USS Horizon. Although, to be fair, colored photos in the Encyclopedia suggest that the aft ends of those nacelles do, in fact, glow blue.
I didn't forget the Daedalus, we've just never seen a "real" visual effects version of it, just a barely-seen model. Given that Sisko has a model of the never-built Freedom space station, there's no telling how accurate the model is... or if that ship ever actually existed. But, asuming it's an accurate ship, the back glowed so it's pretty irrelevant.
[ November 13, 2001: Message edited by: Ryan McReynolds ]
By the way, what year was that Officer's Manual published?
...which I SUPPOSE is possible, but that's like having "F-14B" in big letters being the only markings on a Tomcat fighter.
FYI: the markings on the ST:TMP ships are different. http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/mechanics/ktinga-model2b.jpg
It's also different on BOPs according to this FF pic: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/bop-top-color.jpg
So maybe it's an individual registry number?
By whom? The mad little people of mad world, who
1/ Don't know that it's "Liverpudlian", and
2/ Don't know that I'm from London, and therefore a cockney?
BTW, which modification of the K't'inga is that? I dont recall the big Klingon emblem being in TMP or ST:6. Which ep did it get that paint job for?
quote:
Originally posted by CaptainMike:
Those are both examples of the Okuda-Klingon that doesnt have translations.BTW, which modification of the K't'inga is that? I dont recall the big Klingon emblem being in TMP or ST:6. Which ep did it get that paint job for?
Actually, that's the TMP model as it was before Trumbull had it redetailed and a lot more stuff put on it.
As to the big Klingon emblem, you never see it from below in TMP, so it was probably always there.
That is one awesome schematic/cgi picture! Who did that!?!
Hope this helps!
quote:
Originally posted by Dukhat:
I had once heard a rumor that the Klingon D-12 Bird of Prey in "Generations" was supposed to be a new model, but to cut costs, the footage of the Bird of Prey from STVI was used instead. Can anyone confirm this?
Anyway, there is at least one obviously reused shot of the BOP in Generations, when it explodes. Apart from that though, how on earth can it be reused shots? When did Chang's BOP ever fly near the solar observatory, and when did it shoot the Ent-D?
I don't think it's a new model. I seem to remember an argument about the longest serving minture, and the BOP came in second, after the K'tinga (although no-one could remember if the K'tinga in WOTW onwards was CGI, the old model, or a new model).
NeghVar: When you referred to this study model, did you mean they were going to use it for Chang's BoP as you said, or for the K'Tinga Kronos One? Little confusion here. And I suppose you don't have a pic of that model, or you would already have posted it here.
quote:
Originally posted by PsyLiam:
That's not answering his question though, is it? Nope. Although I'd like to see scans of that proposed ship.[QB]
quote:
Originally posted by Dukhat:
[QB]NeghVar: When you referred to this study model, did you mean they were going to use it for Chang's BoP as you said, or for the K'Tinga Kronos One? Little confusion here. And I suppose you don't have a pic of that model, or you would already have posted it here.
Dukhat/Psyliam: If I had pics...they would be here. They only described the ship in the article, no pics. The issue in question was CINEFEX #49. And you are right, I think it was meant to used in place of Kronos One. Been a while since I read it...someone somewhere must have seen or taken pics of this ship. Now we just need to find that person/s...
quote:
Given that Sisko has a model of the never-built Freedom space station ...
Freedom? AFAIK, Sisko only has a model of the ISS! Since the station is shown in the ENT opening sequence, we can safely assume that it was completed in canon Star Trek universe.
meow
quote:
Originally posted by Davok:
Freedom? AFAIK, Sisko only has a model of the ISS! Since the station is shown in the ENT opening sequence, we can safely assume that it was completed in canon Star Trek universe.
You sure? Freedom and ISS are pretty similar to the casual observer... and even if it is the ISS, it's not the same version that is being built and is seen in Enterprise. Deep Space Nine went on the air in the early nineties, well before the current design was finalized... so it can't be the ISS as we know it now, at least I don't think it can.
But I'm not that big of a real-life-space-stuff-o-phile, so someone else needs to take a look and tell me what's up.
1. The original TOS ship,
2. The TMP version, which was also the ship used in Voyager & Enterprise, and
3. Greg Jein's model for "Trials & Tribble-ations," which was meant to represent the TOS ship but with wing detailing.
I also rescind my previous theory that the TOS ships were D-4's, as I think it's more logical to assume that all the versions were D-7's, just different types.
As for the "D-7" and "K'T'inga" classes being one & the same, I prefer to think that D-7 was just the Federation designation for the K'T'inga, just as "B-Type" was the Federation designation for the D'deridex class.
quote:
Originally posted by Dukhat:
As for the "D-7" and "K'T'inga" classes being one & the same, I prefer to think that D-7 was just the Federation designation for the K'T'inga, just as "B-Type" was the Federation designation for the D'deridex class.
Then why did Kor use "D5" when speaking to an audience of Klingons? Neither he nor the listeners were Federation citizens.
Stroppy universal translator...
Saying that it's not is a bit of a stretch for me.