Regards
Jb
Lots and lots of pornos.
My life has been a lie. Where the heck is the shuttlebay on an Excelsior anyways, if that's not it?
quote:But the thing under the ship isn't a bay! Werent you listening?
I think he means the bay UNDER the ship.
He didn't say he didn't not think that wasn't it.
The Shuttlebay is the second dome on top of the primary hull between the warp nacelles.
I thought the lower hull recess was where maverick Admirals could store their personal yacht, a stolen Klingon bird-of-prey, after commandeering their old ship, destroying it, and then getting dragged into the mirror universe and commandeering our Excelsior to fight an invasion planned by their counterparts.
*whispers*
Oh that never happened?! Mike W. Barr must be crushed..
Oh, dear Lord.
Maybe, just maybe, the cavern underneath the secondary (not primary) hull *and* the bump on the the back end are both shuttlebays.
I'm pretty sure they were both intended to be, unless the bump on the back end was supposed to be a cargo bay, even if the cutaways don't support it.
Simon's "I Wanna Be PsyLiam!" syndrome is spreading to me ... I'm infected ... I wanna be a ga -- er, nevermind.
. . . or am I completely off tangent?
As to whether or not the underslung cavity is aso one? We may never know... 
On the Enterprise-B, the MSD did not label it as anything specific. However, various fan drawings have pegged it as another shuttlebay, the cargo bay, or the tractor beam emitter housing.
Mark
If they are secondary impulse engines, they don't make much sense to me. If you use them when the ship is in one piece, they're going to fire exhaust gases right into the warp nacelles. Not smart. And if they're meant for use after saucer separation, then they're waaaaayy too big for the job. They're bigger than the saucer engines on a Galaxy-class ship, for pity's sake!
quote:
You mean Bill George? I doubt even he knew - I figure he put it there and filled it with random greeblies to account to make it look interesting.
Like I said, one way to find out...
But it does look like some sort of docking bay.
As for the E-B, those are definatly impulse engines (coz they glow red)
as for the apparent shuttlebay in the saucer, the doors could be just under the original (and very small) impulse engines at the back of the saucer.
After all, the original design lasts for ninety years...with no additional units.The MSD shows a cutaway of the ship at the CENTERLINE. The red impulse decks are NOT ON THE CENTERLINE. There is one to port and one to starboard.
There could of course be a shuttlebay between them...
(and the Khan award for two-dimensional thinking goes to..)
Youre right about the exhaust though..
In the DC vol.1 TOS comics, that is where the HMS Bounty docked when Kirk brought it along when he took command of Excelsior (he kept it cloaked too!).. the front of the BOP fit right in it. (and when Mirror-Kirk took over the ship, Kirk used the Bounty's prefix code to access its weapons and have it gut the Excelsiors engine room from within the shields. Yay!
I realize this has nothing to do with anything. I just thought it was cool. There was this bad guy in engineering and he fell down the warp core. He was on fire.
[ November 12, 2001: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
And also Saavik was being drawn like Kirsty Alley, for some reason. There was a good episode of Cheers on tonight. Rebecca had to look after a dog. Farce ensued. There was laughter.
Mark
My pet theory is that there was this hugely important piece of transwarp machinery there at first. When that one became unnecessary, the engineers simply shoved the leftover bits from all the upgrades and modifications there - cooling pipes, exhausts, rows and rows of booster cards for the computers - until the cavity was filled to capacity. In other ships, they were forced to package such stuff more neatly.
Timo Saloniemi
You might want to take another look at the MSD. The display clearly says "Main Shuttlebay P/S", and the area it points to matches the contours of the pods pretty damn closely.
Considering the size of the auxiliary engines on the E-D saucer, I can't see any reason why a corresponding set of engines on the E-B would need to be so much larger. Unless, of course, they're burning rocket fuel.
They glowed red and flared brighter in a close up when the ship was maneuvering, for chrissakes
"I stuck two big impulse engines on the saucer. I figured the saucer would need them if it seperated. The monkeys in Return to Oz frighten me. Go biscuits!"
Or something like that.
The Ent-B MSD is missing the new stickey-out bits (sorry for being tecnical) on the stardrive section, isn't it?
quote:
The Ent-B MSD is missing the new stickey-out bits (sorry for being tecnical) on the stardrive section, isn't it?...
Yep. Model design had not been finalized when bridge set and graphics were designed. Mentioned in TAoST.
Mark
http://www.starshipmodeler.com/trek/lakota-21.jpg
Mark
[edit: i'm in no way saying that the impulse engines make any sense, i'm just repeating what John Eaves said.]
--jacob
[ November 13, 2001: Message edited by: EdipisReks ]
It sure looks as if both the models of that structure would be able to accommodate a relatively large auxiliary vessel that docks from below, though. Those tiny "arms" would then pamper this vessel, while access to the mothership would be through bow or topside doors.
This would be a perfect place to install the ship's antimatter pods, though. Easy ejection, easy replenishment, and those boxes on the ceiling even look a bit like antimatter pods. Those of the Lakota would be bigger and badder, of course. 
Timo Saloniemi
Mark
quote:
in the TNG Movie Sketchbook they are specifically said to be impulse
engines "because the ship would need extra engines when the saucer
detached" (paraphrased from a quote by John Eaves about the extra parts
and doohickies that he designed for the Enterprise-b). i, like many
others, might not particuraly like John Eaves' designs, but i believe
him when he says that red glowy impulse engine looking things that he
designed are impulse engines.
Maybe so, but have they ever been referred to as engines on screen? I don't think so, but my memory may be faulty. At least the MSD has been seen on screen. If we're going to get into arguments over which one we should accept, we might as well go back over to the Yamato registry thread for a few more rounds on that topic.
Oh, don't start. As Mike pointed out, going down that route means there was one toilet on the Enterprise, and there was an aeroplane on board the ship. And a giant duck.
When we saw these things, they glowed red, in the style of impulse engines. When impulse activity took place, they flared up, in the style of impulse engines. They are in the same place as the Ent-D's saucer impulse engines. The person who designed the ship said they were impulse engines. The SFX guys treated them as impulse engines.
The MSD guys, who managed to produce a diagram showing a differently-shaped ship than the one we saw said they were shuttlebays.
I'm going with impulse engines.
And as an extra, that shot of the Ent-B. The cavity section there really reminds me of the bottom of a Star Destroyer, around the hanger area. Could you fit a Blockade Runner into that gap?
As for the additions on the Ent-B saucer - they're most certainly impulse engines. It's what the designer, model builders (modifiers), and VFX people treated them as. Or are we supposed to believe that stupid MSD. The same one that, among other mistakes, tells us that the ship has some 32 decks - I don't think so.
I doubt that what's known as "ramscoops" now was part of Jeffries' original design, either - the red domes probably had some sort of indeterminate propulsive function until FJ decided to call them the "sink" ends of some sort of a huge dipole (the aft end was the "source"), and later generations interpreted that as them being some sort of "sucking devices", ignoring both Jeffries and FJ.
I for one cannot accept the E-B boxes as impulse engines, since they cannot operate in a plausible manner when the saucer is attached to the rest of the ship. They can just *barely* operate in a plausible manner as shuttlebays, however. But they would probably best serve as some sort of cooling devices for internal machinery, so that only some heat would need to come out of the big red surfaces, not physical objects or deuterium-helium jets.
Timo Saloniemi
quote:
When we saw these things, they glowed red, in the style of impulse
engines. When impulse activity took place, they flared up, in the style
of impulse engines. They are in the same place as the Ent-D's saucer
impulse engines. The person who designed the ship said they were impulse
engines. The SFX guys treated them as impulse engines.
So what? The good shots of the E-C's impulse engines show them glowing blue. The stern shots of the Reliant from TWOK show the landing bays glowing blue. Are you going to try to convince us that they're actually impulse engines, simply because both glowed blue? Particularly since the Reliant's bays weren't specifically stated to be landing bays?
And if we're going to argue about what the designers originally intended, then the Yamato is 71807, and modern warp engines shouldn't glow blue when they're not at warp, because that's what Okuda and Probert originally intended.
My point is that having the bays as impulse engines doesn't make much sense in either flight mode. In docked form, the exhaust fires into the warp nacelles. In separate flight mode, the "auxiliary engines" are WAY overpowered for the load they have to move, especially when compared to much greater mass of the E-D saucer and its smaller auxiliary engines. Each one of the B's saucer modules are at least as large as the main engine on the D. What do you need that much power for?
BTW, Eaves seems to like having his impulse engines toasting his warp drive. Check out the plan view from the blueprints of the E-E; the main line out of the impulse housings leads straight at the nacelles. Pretty strange thinking, at least to me.
[ November 16, 2001: Message edited by: Woodside Kid ]
quote:
modern warp engines shouldn't glow blue when they're not at warp, because that's what Okuda and Probert originally intended
Probert and Okuda arent in charge of other ships. .their design intentions dont go beyond the ship they designed. A lot of Proberts intentions were vetoed during the first season, like the Sphinx and the Shuttle Front Door and the Velara III base. If Eaves or Mojo or whoever designs a new ship with blue red or purple glow tomorrow and Berman oks it and it gets on screen then thats the way it should be. Besides, once a ship has moved out of the designers hands and is run by new producers/advisors, their intentions are law.
quote:
My point is that having the bays as impulse engines doesn't make much sense in either flight mode. In docked form, the exhaust fires into the warp nacelles. In separate flight mode, the "auxiliary engines" are WAY overpowered for the load they have to move, especially when compared to much greater mass of the E-D saucer and its smaller auxiliary engines. Each one of the B's saucer modules are at least as large as the main engine on the D. What do you need that much power for?
What dont you need it for? Do you know the mass of the 1701-B? Do you know the thrust created by the impulse engines? No, of course not. You just think they 'look too big' Just because other ships get away with smaller engines doesnt mean they all can, and we dont have enough information to decide what 'right' and whats 'wrong' because this is made up science. Maybe the Excelsior-refits mission profile specifically requires more impulse thrust. The 1701-C and 1701-D impulse engines both use subspace field coils to lighten the ships mass to propel it. Maybe the E-B didnt have that, so it needed bigger engines. Maybe it was using a different type of fusion reactor. Maybe it needed the extra thrust to get Shatner and Doohans' huge asses out of spacedock? You dont know all of the variables in order to be making that judgment.
"The good shots of the E-C's impulse engines show them glowing blue. The stern shots of the Reliant from TWOK show the landing bays glowing blue. Are you going to try to convince us that they're actually impulse engines, simply because both glowed blue? Particularly since the Reliant's bays weren't specifically stated to be landing bays?"
What? Going by that logic, I should be stating that warp drives are actually impulse, because they are blue.
Your logic:
One set of impulse engines shown to be blue = glowey blue things are impulse engines
My logic:
Almost all impulse engines are red.
Some things were designed as impulse engines, and 99.9999% of the people involved with the design and contruction of the ship (model and CGI) treated them as impulse engines.
"And if we're going to argue about what the designers originally intended, then the Yamato is 71807, and modern warp engines shouldn't glow blue when they're not at warp, because that's what Okuda and Probert originally intended."
I think the Yamoto is 71807.
The warp thing is a non-issue, because it was never, ever, ever used in the show, at any point. The Enterprise-D was originally going to be NCC 1701-7.
Nearly every episode of modern Star Trek has shown that warp drive engines glow blue all the time. And modern Star Trek has also continuously shown that big rectangular reg glowy things are Impulse Engines. Espeically if the designer and builders think so.
"But they would probably best serve as some sort of cooling devices for internal machinery, so that only some heat would need to come out of the big red surfaces, not physical objects or deuterium-helium jets."
Now, that makes more sense than the Shuttlebay argument, because there's at least an attampt at explanation as to why these "shuttlebays" glowed red.
If the MSD (which has been proven to be wrong on at least a couple of things) had never labelled them as shuttlebays, can you really see people standing up saying "Hang on! You know those red glowy thingies that everyone thinks are impulse engines? I think they've shuttlebays"? It's as likely as someone trying to claim the Enterprise-D's main shuttle bay is actually a giant toaster.
[ November 17, 2001: Message edited by: PsyLiam ]
quote:
Do you know the mass of the 1701-B?
No, particularly since the only "modern" source I've seen for that is the DS9 TM, and we all know how accurate that is. However, think about this:
Given those two points, I think I'm on pretty solid ground to assume that the D's saucer is more massive than the B's.
quote:
Maybe the Excelsior-refits mission profile specifically
requires more impulse thrust.
Really? Since saucer separation wasn't intended to be a routine maneuver in the TOS/Movie era, then the new engine pods (which, if you believe Eaves' statement about being for use after separation) are essentially useless for most of the ship's operational life. At any rate, why would you need more impulse thrust for the saucer alone than you would need when the ship is in one piece?
quote:
The 1701-C and 1701-D impulse engines both
use subspace field coils to lighten the ships mass to propel it. Maybe
the E-B didnt have that, so it needed bigger engines. Maybe it was using
a different type of fusion reactor.
Uh-huh. Remember Geordi's line to Scotty in "Relics" ? "Impulse engine design hasn't changed much in 200 years." Since Geordi was still using an impulse design specification that Scotty wrote more than 75 years earlier, I seriously doubt that there was enough difference in engine operations for it to effect a substantial design change.
The point I was trying to make with the Reliant/E-C blue glow thing is that we shouldn't assume that two things are the same simply because they both have a similar-looking visual effect. I know that most impulse drives we've seen had a red glow. However, the E-C and the NX-01's engines glow blue, the TMP E's engine glow was nearly yellow in the original theatrical issue, and the TOS impulse engines had no glow at all.
quote:
Probert and Okuda arent in charge of other ships. .their design
intentions dont go beyond the ship they designed. A lot of Proberts
intentions were vetoed during the first season, like the Sphinx and the
Shuttle Front Door and the Velara III base. If Eaves or Mojo or whoever
designs a new ship with blue red or purple glow tomorrow and Berman oks
it and it gets on screen then thats the way it should be. Besides, once
a ship has moved out of the designers hands and is run by new
producers/advisors, their intentions are law.
Oooookay. Let me see if I've got this straight. I'm supposed to accept Eaves' intention about the new modules and ignore the later art department input because I'm supposed to go with the designer's original intentions. But I'm also supposed to ignore Probert's idea for the warp engine glow and go with the later VFX input even though it's not the designer's original intention. Hmmmm. As Nomad would say, "Non sequitur. Your facts are uncoordinated."
BTW, I didnt mean to say that Okuda had anything to do with the engine glow thing. He was the one involved in the Yamato registry number problem.
Well, considering how amazingly wrong the MSD is, I think it's fair enough to ignore it, especially considering that you're ignoring the DS9 technical manual for the same reason.
The art department didn't even have the correct design handy when they came up with that MSD, so it could very easily be (and is) wrong.
And it's not just the designer that said those were impulse engines. The SFX people also went with that, since they glowed. In this case, the designer and SFX agree. In the Probert case, they disagree, and we've had 12 years of warp engines only glowing at warp to disprove him.
And didn't someone say the shuttlebay label isn't even pointing towards the Impulse engines? Scan please!
"Since saucer separation wasn't intended to be a routine maneuver in the TOS/Movie era..."
Generations took place at the end of the movie era. How do you know that the new lot of 2290 onwards starships weren't designed to seperate more easily?
'Remember Geordi's line to Scotty in "Relics" ? "Impulse engine design hasn't changed much in 200 years." '
Geordi also said that transporters haven't changed much, and then barely 5 episodes later, in Second Chances, they'd changed enough to make a previously dangerous transportation easy. I'd say that Geordi was just trying to make Scotty feel better.