The question is whether the Daedalus Class should appear in Enterprise.
Pros, Cons, and General Info:
1. Needed Class-filling: The NX Class gives the appearance of being more advanced than what we have seen of the Daedalus Class, especially in reference to the hull geometry for warp-driven ships. The Daedalus would be a prime candidate for a slower, older ship type, since we know Starfleet has older, slower vessels.
2. Sentimental: We might get to learn more about some of the ships lost in the past whose fate wasn't known until TOS or TNG.
3. Continuity, Dammit: While we don't know quite when the Daedalus entered service, we know the last one left the service in 2196. We also know that the Essex was in service in 2167. The only problem would be the registries, such as NCC-173 for the Essex, but one could always say that was a late-model Daedalus.
******************
On a slightly different topic . . . now that we know about the NX Class, what do you think about the conjectural assignment of the Horizon and Archon as Daedalus Class ships?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Of course, since technically we've never seen one...
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Damnit, I forgot to make my cunning joke!
Should Daedalus appear? Obviously, yes. If he hadn't, I'd never have gotten out of MJ12 custody.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Only if Enterprise lasts for at least 15 seasons or a season is longer than a year....
I've long held the Daedalus as the first Federation design [whether it was entirely built by humans or not is not an issue. With or without alien influence, I simply believe that the ship was the first to be built under Federation authority (however it would be extremely nice if there were some advances through cooperation in this design)].
BTW, where are the Bolians?
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by J: BTW, where are the Bolians?
Barber shops, mostly.
If they show the Daedalus, I do hope they have her flying circles around the NX-01.
[ June 26, 2002, 01:02: Message edited by: David Templar ]
Posted by Nim Pim (Member # 205) on :
"Opinions: Should Daedalus Appear?"
Opinions: No!
Motiva�ion? It's fuck-ugly and crude!
Posted by Nim Pim (Member # 205) on :
My thought exactly, Honorable Templar Pimp. If at all, it should be outfitted with some sort of experimental weapon or sensor, just enough to outpiss those Klingens.
Posted by BWC (Member # 818) on :
Yes.
They could be old ships of Earth or Earth and another planet that got commissioned in Starfleet at different times, hence NCC-173.
Posted by Ultimate Magnus (Member # 239) on :
SIMON....IS.......MAGNIFICENT!!
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:what we have seen of the Daedalus Class
Nope, we've just seen a design that could be a Daedalus. Unless there is an obscure okudagram about this, we don't have a canon design for the Daedalus class (although the Horizon's registry was pretty close to the Essex's).
Posted by Brown_supahero (Member # 83) on :
NO,
why
I want 'enterprise' to last at max 3 seasons. I want one of these senarios to happen. 1. Enterprise blows up. 2. Crew dies one by one over the season. 3. Start a war, (ie romular war)
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
Yes. The more TOS in Enterprise, the better.
[ June 26, 2002, 11:26: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by The Real Folk Blues (Member # 510) on :
i think a Daedalus class ship should show up and accidentally run over the Enterprise. The captain of the Daedalus would look over his shoulder, shrug, and say "whoops". that would be pretty rad.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spike: Nope, we've just seen a design that could be a Daedalus. Unless there is an obscure okudagram about this, we don't have a canon design for the Daedalus class (although the Horizon's registry was pretty close to the Essex's).
Why do you say this, Spikey? It's so incredibly ridiculous. Jein and Okuda built the fucking thing to be the Daedalus. To say it's not, just because it's never been said explicitly onscreen, is just ignoring the facts and is really pig-headed of you.
Wow. I just blasted Spikey. I'm sorry.
-MMoM
[ June 26, 2002, 13:02: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
Well, you get blasted all the time Mighty "Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope: Special Edition" Monkey of Mim. Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Why do you say this, Spikey?
Because it's the truth, Mimmy. The facts are that there is no canon evidence of which we know. That's it. So, TBTB can use whatever design they want for the Daedalus.
[ June 26, 2002, 13:41: Message edited by: Spike ]
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Just having the Daedalus appear within Starfleet isn't enough... I feel that it has to be built by the Federation--- completely designed and signed off by the Federation "Thusly signed on this date in 216X by Yadda Yadda the First President of the United Federation of Planets." Not something designed under Earth's authority.
Secondly, this does mean that it won't happen until after 2361, and we won't see one built until a number of years afterwards.
Thirdly, I also see that the original ships of the Federation fleet were member world ships that got drafted --- thus the first Daedalus will most definately have an NCC much higher than that of 01 [maybe in the hundreds]. --- This does assume that the Federation doesn't reserve the first few numbers like NCC-01 for their first self-designed and self-built class.
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Although I consider Jein's model to be the Daedalus class, the current producers probably don't, since it was not explicity identified on screen as such. I predict we'll see USS Daedalus or a ship of its class, but that it will look more advanced than NX-01, maybe an upgraded NX.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
I agree with Spike. And I hate that Daedalus design. I'd sooner see the NX-class as having an identifiable design lineage with the Constitution than think the Daedalus fits. 8)
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Masao: Although I consider Jein's model to be the Daedalus class, the current producers probably don't, since it was not explicity identified on screen as such. I predict we'll see USS Daedalus or a ship of its class, but that it will look more advanced than NX-01, maybe an upgraded NX.
I think this is completely off base and I don't know why anyone thinks this. If TPTB are going to use "Daedalus-class starships," they're far more likely to just look in the Encyclopedia or Chronology, or ask Okuda what the Daedalus looks like than they are to make up their own design.
What will most likely happen is they won't use the Daedalus at all, they'll come up with something totally different to be the NX-01's contemporary on the show. But if they do use the name, they'll use the design too, because in everybody's mind those two are solidly connected, regardless of whether or not Sisko ever said "Look! This is my Daedalus model!"
It's not a matter of "believing" the model is the Daedalus or not. It is the Daedalus.
-MMoM Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: If TPTB are going to use "Daedalus-class starships," they're far more likely to just look in the Encyclopedia or Chronology
Except they had a design for the Phoenix in the chronology, and didn't use that.
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Don't get me wrong, MMOM, I want that model to represent the Daedalus class just as much as you do, but I don't trust the producers to see it the same way. Their use of the Ferengi with the weaselly explanation that the Enterprise crew never learned their name suggests they'll do something similar with this model. The uncertainty surrounding the class of the model, reflected in your phase "regardless of whether or not Sisko ever said 'Look! This is my Daedalus model!'" is just the type of loophole that might be exploited by the producers. That the existence of the Daedalus class is canon can't be disputed, but the producers can weasel out of having the model represent a Daedalus class ship by saying the model is labeled Horizon, not Daedalus, and that Horizon was not established on screen as a Daedalus class ship. Of course, USS Essex is established as a Daedalus-class ship, but this model isn't labeled Essex either.
Nx-01 is clearly more advanced than this putative Daedalus-class ship, so if the Daedalus is supposed to follow NX-01, I bet they'll just ignore this model. Or maybe they'll say Daedalus existed before NX-01, is represented by this more primitive-looking model, and served until 2196 (but i doubt it).
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Except they had a design for the Phoenix in the chronology, and didn't use that.
Yes they did. Or, at least, they based the final design heavily on that. All they really did was change the cockpit shape so that it was the casing of a Titan V missile. Other than that and the detailing, the overall layout is the same. A cylinder with nacelles sticking out.
quote:Originally posted by Masao: Don't get me wrong, MMOM, I want that model to represent the Daedalus class just as much as you do, but I don't trust the producers to see it the same way. Their use of the Ferengi with the weaselly explanation that the Enterprise crew never learned their name suggests they'll do something similar with this model. The uncertainty surrounding the class of the model, reflected in your phase "regardless of whether or not Sisko ever said 'Look! This is my Daedalus model!'" is just the type of loophole that might be exploited by the producers. That the existence of the Daedalus class is canon can't be disputed, but the producers can weasel out of having the model represent a Daedalus class ship by saying the model is labeled Horizon, not Daedalus, and that Horizon was not established on screen as a Daedalus class ship. Of course, USS Essex is established as a Daedalus-class ship, but this model isn't labeled Essex either.
Nx-01 is clearly more advanced than this putative Daedalus-class ship, so if the Daedalus is supposed to follow NX-01, I bet they'll just ignore this model. Or maybe they'll say Daedalus existed before NX-01, is represented by this more primitive-looking model, and served until 2196 (but i doubt it).
Okay, first of all, I doubt they're going to go through the trouble of using a ship class that's already been in the canon, because they'd rather avoid having to deal with continuity if they can. For this reason, I hold no real anticipation of seeing the Daedalus in ENT. Especially since, as others have pointed out, it's really from a later period than the one in which the show takes place.
Secondly, I still believe that if for some reason they did use the Daedalus, (say, perhaps, if Okuda suggested it to them, in which case he'd point out the model to them anyway) they wouldn't spend the money or the trouble creating some new design for it. They'd use the design that already exists. TPTB are, by nature, lazy. This being the case, when they want to reference something they're probably not going to go back and watch episodes. They're probably going to just pick up the Encyclopedia and take a peek. (That's what it's there for, after all.) They're also not going to say "Hey, even though there's already a perfectly useable design here in front of us, we're going to pay someone to come up with a new one!" It simply doesn't work that way. (Maybe on a film, like First Contact, they could afford to do such a thing, but probably not on a regular production series. Hell, they're already re-using CGI models!)
I think you guys are worried about nothing. The Daedalus is such an obscure ship tha they'll probably never even think of it. And, if they do, anywhere they look they'll find that design greeting them.
-MMoM
[ June 27, 2002, 00:02: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
I don't know why you guys are getting so bent out of shape over this. All you have to do is think like an Enterprise TPTB.
In some third-rate TNG episode produced back in 1993 or whatever, Data mentions an old Starfleet vessel from the early days of the Federation, U.S.S. Essex, NCC-173, and says it was a Daedalus class vessel.
Later, Greg Jein, in an effort to make Sisko's office more decorative, builts a small model of a ship referred to in a TOS episode, the U.S.S. Horizon, and makes up a registry number for it, NCC-176. Although Okuda conjectures that this model represents the same class as the Essex, nowhere on the model does it say that the ship is a Daedalus class vessel. So canonically, there's no evidence that this model is of that class.
Furthermore, TPTB probably know nothing of this model, or the name "Daedalus class," unless Okuda shows them his Encyclopedia as MMOM said. However, TPTB will then say "thanks for the help, Mike, but we really think we'll be doing things our way from now on, & since this model looks really cheesy and boring, if we ever do make another Starfleet vessel, it'll be much cooler looking. But please leave your book here, it might be interesting reading someday." Upon which, once Okuda walks away, they file his book in the "circular file" (i.e. garbage can).
[ June 27, 2002, 09:35: Message edited by: Dukhat ]
Posted by Capped In Mic (Member # 709) on :
guys.. think outside the box..
what if the Daedalus appears, as a Federation ship of the same arrangement of the one conjectured by Jein and Okuda.. but designed with the techniques and stylization of the NX-era? i think itd be an allright compromise....
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Good idea! I'm sure they can think up some technobabble expanation to explain the shape as well...
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
I have always wondered why people think it's more primitive than the NX class. Just because it has a smooth and shiny hull means nothing. Just like in TOS where everything looks so low tech is a perfect explanation for it, it's the style of design at that time.
The Daedalus class could lead up to the TOS Enterprise with the smooth and shiny hull.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dukhat: I don't know why you guys are getting so bent out of shape over this. All you have to do is think like an Enterprise TPTB.
In some third-rate TNG episode produced back in 1993 or whatever, Data mentions an old Starfleet vessel from the early days of the Federation, U.S.S. Essex, NCC-173, and says it was a Daedalus class vessel.
Later, Greg Jein, in an effort to make Sisko's office more decorative, builts a small model of a ship referred to in a TOS episode, the U.S.S. Horizon, and makes up a registry number for it, NCC-176. Although Okuda conjectures that this model represents the same class as the Essex, nowhere on the model does it say that the ship is a Daedalus class vessel. So canonically, there's no evidence that this model is of that class.
Furthermore, TPTB probably know nothing of this model, or the name "Daedalus class," unless Okuda shows them his Encyclopedia as MMOM said. However, TPTB will then say "thanks for the help, Mike, but we really think we'll be doing things our way from now on, & since this model looks really cheesy and boring, if we ever do make another Starfleet vessel, it'll be much cooler looking. But please leave your book here, it might be interesting reading someday." Upon which, once Okuda walks away, they file his book in the "circular file" (i.e. garbage can).
I disagree with your portrayal of how TPTB would think.
1. They'd never just "remember" the mention of the Daedalus in "Power Play." They don't care about little details like that. No one going to jump up and say "Hey, remember when that one ship was mentioned in TNG?" If the ship comes to their attention, it will be through the Encyclopedia or Mike Okuda or Greg Jein, etc. they won't think of it themselves.
2. When they do look in the Encyclopedia, etc., they're just going to take what's in there for granted. They're not going to go "Hmmm, I wonder if this ship ever actually appeared in the show..." They're just going to assume it.
3. If they do decide they want a re-design, it will propbably just be (as Capt. Mike said) on thorder of what they did with the Phoenix. Same overall layout, just different detailing.
-MMoM
[ June 27, 2002, 14:45: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
I don't mind some detail changes... just as long as it is still basically a sphere with a cylinder trailing behind not to mention nacelles attached. This would be no different than the developing of the Nebula from Pathfinder in BoBWs to the 3/4ths oval pod to the triangle pod to the full scale saucer Nebula...
We've only seen the Daedalus as a model, and I personally feel we can take some liberaties with that. We can't see every detail of the ship, and we can assume some artistic license in the creation of that model. Given those facts I don't mind some changes from the images I'm used to.
Heck, I would have said the same thing about the NX-01 if they had really done that, but they didn't... they just changed the details of an existing ship.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
MMoM: Everything you said was what I was trying to say too. Maybe you misunderstood what I wrote.
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
I think we're all pretty much in agreement that we'll probably never see a Daedalus-class ship which looks like the model in Sisko's office on Enterprise.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Nope, I don't agree on that. What I agree is that we'll probably never see a Daedalus that doesn't look like the model on Sisko's desk, since its probably the only one we'll ever get to see.
But if we do, by some fantastic and far-fetched chance, see one, it'll either look the same or damn close to it.
Sorry, I'll try not to argue anymore...
-MMoM
[ June 27, 2002, 21:54: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
Let me have another approach: Neither TPTB nor the Art Department will decide to design a completely new ship or modify an existing one only because they feel like that. So if a script requires another Earth ship, they may just design one.
We know that NX is the most advanced Earth class by far, and it has taken 30 years to build it. The chance of seeing a successor in the series is virtually zero (well, time travel is always an option, but I doubt that they will go only one or two decades ahead).
If they need a less advanced vessel, they may remember the Encyclopedia. Surely the Art Department and probably B&B too know the Daedalus design. Surely they won't care about the ship's name or history. They may decide against it because it's not cool enough, or they may just take it as another homage. Even in the latter case, we will not see the Daedalus as we know it, but an updated version with the new old 22nd century style.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Well, I'm not up on all of the people in the Art Department these days, but isn't Mike Okuda still working on "Enterprise"? If he were, I'd say it's a very strong possibility that we'll see a Daedalus-inspired Earth design at some point. It'll probably be "jazzed up" to today's standards using CGI. But given that there are apparently still a large number of professionals on the staff who are pretty deep into Treknology, I'd frankly be more surprised if they DIDN'T use the design at some point.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Precisely. The design is well-known by most.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
I hope they do show it; I may be in a minority here (actually I may be the minority) but I actually quite like the design...
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I like it too.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
I don't.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Me either.
Posted by Ultra Magnus Pym (Member # 239) on :
I have no visceral reaction to a piece of plastic that was seen for all of two seconds.
That being said, I hate it.
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
I like the design, if they make it more *looking for term* make it more detailed I wouldn't have a problem with it.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Why do you guys hate it?
A.) If you hate the design, you must hate the Olympic too, since it's got a nearly identical configuration.
B.) If you hate the detailing, you must hate the NCC-1701 too, since the scheme is nearly identical.
C.) You must loooove the NX-01, because it's everything the Daedalus isn't---a properly styled 22nd century ship.
In conclusion, (to borrow a phrase from my adolescent younger brother) YOU GUYS ARE WHACKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-MMoM Posted by BWC (Member # 818) on :
[rant] Agreed, MMoM. I wish they would have more of Masao-esque(sp.?) ships in Enterprise. The Deadalus is one of my favorite designs, BTW behind the Guilbert Class (non Canon) Ambassodor, Olympic, and New Orleans. Thats mostly why I'm against clear pictures of Enterprise unless from afar. [/rant]
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
I see the model in Sisko's office with its level of detail only as some sort of project study that is missing details like a proper impulse drive or thrusters. I bet that many critics would come to like the design is they saw a properly redesigned Daedalus. This should include some slight tweaking to the basic shapes too.
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
It really shows that the ship is CGI, at least the models after TOS look like they're real.
CGI has the smoothness look that I haven't been able to figure out how to describe it other than be unnaturally smooth. That's why I feel that Star Wars should skip the CGI characters until year 20xx when we do have the technology to make CGI characters look somewhat real.
If they do decide to keep the Daedalus class untouched and CGIed, it'll look too fake for me to take seriously.
Posted by Raw Cadet (Member # 725) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: Why do you guys hate it?
A.) If you hate the design, you must hate the Olympic too, since it's got a nearly identical configuration.
B.) If you hate the detailing, you must hate the NCC-1701 too, since the scheme is nearly identical.
C.) You must loooove the NX-01, because it's everything the Daedalus isn't---a properly styled 22nd century ship.
-MMoM
So, (The) Mighty Monkey Of Mim, when you want our opinion you will give it to us?
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
Well I pick F, F for fantastic.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Well, it just makes no sense to me, Raw Cadet, that people complain to death about the NX-01, and yet they'll turn right around and say they don't like the Daedalus either. So what exactly is it that you guys want?
-MMoM
[ June 30, 2002, 20:25: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
Posted by BWC (Member # 818) on :
I did a drawing of a TOS-ish NX 01. It looks pretty good, with the smooth hull. If you wanted me to, I could scan it in...
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
We must fear MMoM, for he has the divining rod of superior taste.
I hereby apologize for wrongthink.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
quote:Well, it just makes no sense to me
Mim, I've noticed that quite a lot of our opinions make no sense to you. That's because people don't always think the way you think. Please don't presume to judge what others think just because it conflicts with your own mindset.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Dukkie, The_Tom, I'm not "judging" you, I'm disagreeing with you. My little three-point jibe was all in fun. Please, relax. We're all friends here...or at least I always thought so...
-MMoM Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Didn't mean...to post twice...
[ June 30, 2002, 20:25: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
C'mon, guys, give Mim a break. He's a nice enough guy. And he says "Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope: The Special Limited Edition Now Remastered On DVD."
That's worth some love.
Not loving. Just love.
Besides, a lot of what he said made some sense. Namely: that people complain to death about the NX-01, and yet they'll turn right around and say they don't like the Daedalus either. So what exactly is it that you guys want?
[ June 30, 2002, 20:27: Message edited by: Snay ]
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Snay: C'mon, guys, give Mim a break. He's a nice enough guy. And he says "Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope: The Special Limited Edition Now Remastered On DVD
Don't be silly, Snay, I would never say such ridiculous thing.
I would say SWIV:ANH:SLE:DVD!
-MMoM Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
I know it was in fun, but I'd just like to add that the "love all of it or not of it" argument is heinously flawed. Almost all of us here are Trek fans. No one here loves every single thing about Star Trek.
That being said, I'll have to throw myself into the "likes the Daedalus" camp. It may just be that it has a resemblance to the Discovery, but I dig that little ship. I think it looks pretty neat, and I'd like to see a more detailed version of it on Enterprise.
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
Yeah, I don't have a problem with the Daedalus design itself, but I'd rather they take the same Matt Jeffries sketch Greg Jein worked from but make their own take on it, if they're going to use the ship at all. Realistically, it ain't gonna happen.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
What WILL happen sooner or later is that TPTB will show us a pre-NX-01 starship design. And when they get the urge to do so, they'll at some point ask Okuda whether there already exists a pre-NX-01 starship they could use. And Mike will say "nope" because in his books, the Daedalus is post-Enterprise.
Whether Mike or Doug or somebody else will then campaign for the use of the sphere-and-can design is a different matter. But even if they do, TPTB will just say "But you said there were no pre-NX-01 designs - where did this come from?". If Mike then says "Well, yeah, but this *looks* like it could be old", the best we can expect from TPTB is a half-hearted "Perhaps we can use some of those design elements". They won't buy the Daedalus, not after the initial rejection.
I see only one course of events that would lead Paramount to using the Daedalus in the sphere-and-can format. If they don't listen to their tech folks, they won't run across this design. If they do, they'll learn that it's slightly controversial as a pre-Enterprise, and will bolt.
But if the tech people just sort of smuggle the design into the show as a cute in-joke, *then* it might be possible to finally get the sphere-and-can design and the Daedalus name canonically combined. All it takes is a lull in CGI work and a bored yet knowledgeable employee...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote: It really shows that the ship is CGI, at least the models after TOS look like they're real.
I'm not sure what you are actually referring to, but if it's the NX-Enterprise, I'd disagree. While statements like that are true for a lot of older CGI models, I find the NX totally convincing as a real ship.
quote: sphere-and-can format
I think that sums up my problems with the Daedalus class. It's horribly unbalanced, look cheap, and is, well, ugly. It has all the bad design elements of the NCC-1701 (which were largely corrected for the refit), and none of it's simple beauty and grace. And yes, I'm not keen on the Olympic-class either.
quote: Yes. The more TOS in Enterprise, the better.
Because the number of episodes in which a Daedalus-class ship was mentioned or seen in TOS numbers in the great numbers of highness.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
If they ever show one of the older, slower Earth Starfleet ships, they DO have some previous designs to work from. There is the triangular ship from the intro, the Conestoga and the Y class. It's interesting to note that the Conestoga bears resemblance to the Phoenix and the very obscure Valiant design from the Ency, and the Y class resembles some elements of the DY-100 model.
I think that any new old Starfleet ship we see will be a completely new design, probably based on earlier ENT work, and not on the Daedalus. Perhaps they DO realise the Daedalus is a later design?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Or perhaps they have eyes?
Posted by EMH Mk.2 (Member # 860) on :
I would like the Daedalus class to appear, even if it were just a small cameo. Still I doutb it will ever be seen on-screen. Well, not just desktop models
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
Just curious, did anyone do or find any pics of what the Daedalus should look like? Meaning what would it look like with ENT tech or even modifications to make it look more 'real'?
Posted by Just Harry (Member # 265) on :
quote:Originally posted by Capped In Mic: guys.. think outside the box..
what if the Daedalus appears, as a Federation ship of the same arrangement of the one conjectured by Jein and Okuda.. but designed with the techniques and stylization of the NX-era? i think itd be an allright compromise....
YES!!! Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
I dunno...it doesn't look much different than how it looked before...
Posted by BWC (Member # 818) on :
Pylons look a little flimsy there, Mike!
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dukhat: I dunno...it doesn't look much different than how it looked before...
Isn't that...like, the POINT? Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Just ran into this prototype for a Daedalus model kit and thought I'd post the link.
Seeing I wasnt here to take part in the original debate I thought I would offer my 2 bits.
I would really like to see the Daedalus Class in Enterprise, if not, then at least another Starfleet ship of any type or class...and as far as any more damn freighters, i say "bah!".
Its not a great design (the Daedalus) but, nonetheless, it is the only known class of this era we know of and it would be refreshing to know that there is indeed more to Starfleet than the Archer Boyz out there rounding up freighters and pissing off vulcan captains.
Just a thought.
Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
Well, it's space... so having an aerodynamic starship isn't really needed. So bring on that ship Enterprise... god knows you need a rating's boost.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Of course, a sizable portion of the show's essence is that, as far as useful ships go, Enterprise essentially is Earth's entire fleet, at least at the moment.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I don't think I took part in this discussion. I'd like to see a gradual move towards the look of the Daedalus. Maybe even the Daedalus being the first double-hull starship. Maybe having them at the end? of the series with the Federation forming or something? Maybe the first interplanetary vessel?
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Com'on pay attention guys, Daedalus is Federation... not Earth Starfleet. It can't be around for a while yet.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge: Well, it's space... so having an aerodynamic starship isn't really needed. So bring on that ship Enterprise... god knows you need a rating's boost.
Oh yes. The Daedalus class. The attention grabbing, viewer winning show stealing masterpiece. Forget the Romulans, the viewing public are demanding to see their sphere-and-can!
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by J: Com'on pay attention guys, Daedalus is Federation... not Earth Starfleet. It can't be around for a while yet.
That's a ridiculous statement. The fact that the only three Daedaluses we've ever heard about were in service in the early Federation era IN NO WAY means that they weren't around in the years preceeding.
And, if you're trying to make some distinction between the Starfleet of the ENT-era and the one from all the other shows, none exists. At least, not in the minds of TPTB or the writers. Why is everyone loving to call it 'Earth Starfleet' so much? It's the SAME organization we've always known, just in its earliest stages of existence. WTF is this 'Earth Starfleet' crapola?
And BTW, the NX-01 is not the only ship SF has. (Shenandoah. Neptune-class surveyors. The 'other ships' mentioned at the beginning of "Fortunate Son.") Enterprise is just the fastest of them, and thus has a more extensive range.
I'd love to see the Daedalus appear on ENT. I wouldn't even mind a small amount of minor tinkering with the design, so long as it looks essentially the same as the desktop model.
-MMoM Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
*sigh*
Look, obviously Enterprise isn't physically the only ship in the fleet. But it's the only ship that matters, because it's the only ship that can really go anywhere.
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
When they mentioned the 'old' Neptune class, I couldn't help wonder if there was a mythology thing going for class names. Will there be a Ikarus class?
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:And, if you're trying to make some distinction between the Starfleet of the ENT-era and the one from all the other shows, none exists. At least, not in the minds of TPTB or the writers.
Now, where did you get that from? Was there an interview?
IMO the "new" class/registry-scheme is a strong indication that Earth Starfleet is different from Federation Starfleet. Even some novel writers think that there is a distinction between these two organization.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
The same novel writers that once had O'Brien call Odo "mate"?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Com'on pay attention guys, Daedalus is Federation... not Earth Starfleet. It can't be around for a while yet."
So, in 2161, upon the formation of the Federation, all ships in Earth's Starfleet will be totally scrapped, and the Federation's Starfleet will be built completely from scratch?
Posted by Akira (Member # 850) on :
No i think they will become NCC- Like Enterprise NCC-01-a j/k
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
Huh?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN:
"Com'on pay attention guys, Daedalus is Federation... not Earth Starfleet. It can't be around for a while yet."
So, in 2161, upon the formation of the Federation, all ships in Earth's Starfleet will be totally scrapped, and the Federation's Starfleet will be built completely from scratch?
I agree with what TSN isn't saying here . Earth Starfleet is an integral part of what becomes the Federation Starfleet. Much as Earth becomes the capital planet ("heart") of the Federation, the term "Starfleet" becomes the personae of the Federations conglomeration of starships. As all of the "fleets", i.e. Vulcan vessels and Andorian vessels as well as Earth vessels became integrated into a single Federation fleet (a combination of presumably these forces), a single entity known as the "Federation" Starfleet is formed...it just so happens to have a Earth term applied to it as the Federation starfleet is probably not composed of JUST Earth derived vessels as we see in the later series.
OR...the planet Earth maintains the only Federation-wide fleet and that is why they still maintain their original term of "Starfleet".
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN:
"Com'on pay attention guys, Daedalus is Federation... not Earth Starfleet. It can't be around for a while yet."
So, in 2161, upon the formation of the Federation, all ships in Earth's Starfleet will be totally scrapped, and the Federation's Starfleet will be built completely from scratch?
TSN... not to be totally disrespectful, but if I didn't know you any better, I'd call you stupid.
It's been a long held belief of mine and many other people that the Daedalus is the first Federation starship venture---
Earth's Starfleet isn't scrapped either. Another long held belief is that the Earth fleet was slowly integrated with the Federation fleet--- accounting for the earlier NCCs before the Daedalus came along. And Earth's wasn't the only fleet that joined up either. But it seems that Earth was the more proactive than any other, Archer seems to heavily indicate this proactive nature... wanting to create something like the Federation [anything to do with his time travels?].
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Your post implied that ships of Earth's Starfleet and ships of the Federation's Starfleet are mutually exclusive sets. Your "long-held belief" really isn't important. Just because you think, by way of zero evidence, that the Daedalus wasn't a pre-Federation ship, that doesn't mean anyone who thinks otherwise is automatically wrong.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
I don't see any problems with Daedalus-class starships in Earth Starfleet. The class-name jives with the class/registry-scheme but so does Neptune-class.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spike:
quote:And, if you're trying to make some distinction between the Starfleet of the ENT-era and the one from all the other shows, none exists. At least, not in the minds of TPTB or the writers.
Now, where did you get that from? Was there an interview?
IMO the "new" class/registry-scheme is a strong indication that Earth Starfleet is different from Federation Starfleet. Even some novel writers think that there is a distinction between these two organization.
Spikey,
To my knowledge, NO ONE serving in ANY official or creative capacity on the show has EVER so much as suggested that the Starfleet of Enterprise is in any way a different Starfleet from the one we've always known. Not Berman, or Braga, or anyone else. And it is clear (to my eyes, at least) that they are not treating it as such in the series. It is the same organization we've always known, albeit with a few things to be refined over the years.
As I recall, the notion that it was somehow a different organization that just happened to have the same name was a FANDOM conception that arose right here ON THIS VERY BOARD, as a way of rationalizing the the then-brand new series with the ERRONEOUS idea that Starfleet was founded at the same time as the Federation, which had come down as conjecture (that which you yourself are usually so fond of debunking) through the Chronology and Encyclopedia, and was NEVER stated on screen. (The only way it was ever suggested was the 2161 founding date on the Starfleet Academy banner from "The First Duty" [TNG], and all that *really* tells us is that '61 was the year in which the ACADEMY was established, not necessarily Starfleet itself.)
Starfleet is Starfleet. True, at this point it only comprises Earth ships. Does that make it a separate entity from the Starfleet of later times? No. True, it appears that it employs a different registry scheme. Does this mean it's not the same organization? No. These are things that will indeed likely change with the founding of the Federation, but does that mean that even after these changes occur it's a whole other agency? No.
Earth has always been portrayed as central to the structure of the Federation. It is the capital. The office of the President and the chambers of the Federation Council are located on Earth. Starfleet Headquarters and the main branch of Starfleet Academy are on Earth. The vast majority of Starfleet personnel are human. The vast majority of Starfleet ships have human names. The official language of the UFP is English. It would seem to be clear that Earth is the single most important player within the UFP. (Of course, that's not necessarily something we all like, and I'm not saying that's a desireable thing, but historically that's how it's been portrayed.) In ENT, we're already seeing this role develop in that Earth is beginning to act as a mediator in the Vulco-Andorian war.
Given the above, it makes perfect sense for Earth's space force, Starfleet, to absorb (at least partially---there's no concrete proof that UFP member worlds don't still have some defense forces of their own in addition to being protected by Starfleet, even in the 24th century) those of the other founding members when the Fed is incorporated in '61. (After all, if the capital is to be on Earth, why not make use of the instellations already in place there?) Not be absorbed by some newly-created organization that just happens to be called the same thing.
Obviously, that last paragraph is my personal view on the subject, but I think the indications are that TPTB are looking at it in essentially the same way. (Not that they've even thought it through as much as I just did, but they're certainly not differentiating between SF in 2151 and SF in 2371, beyond the fact that there are less ships around.)
And, as a final note---though I know that these things don't carry any real weight with you, the article on Federation starships in the January 2003 Star Trek: The Magazine has the following quote:
quote:From "Introduction to Federation Vessels," page 32, paragraph 1: "Starfleet began life as a purely human organization, operating a variety of warp vessels including Enterprise NX-01. However, it came into its own with the formation of the Federation in 2161, and since then has been responsible for thousands of ships."
This of course is not canon (by your definition) and *could* conceivably be superceded by onscreen info at any time. However, I believe it represents the "official" viewpoint. (Meaning it won't be.)
Take it as you will.
-MMoM Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
"The vast majority of Starfleet personnel are human. The vast majority of Starfleet ships have human names. The official language of the UFP is English."
None of these things would seem to be true. We simply haven't seen "the vast majority" of Starfleet's ships or personnel, and no one's ever said anything about an official UFP language.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: "The vast majority of Starfleet personnel are human. The vast majority of Starfleet ships have human names. The official language of the UFP is English."
None of these things would seem to be true. We simply haven't seen "the vast majority" of Starfleet's ships or personnel, and no one's ever said anything about an official UFP language.
We've seen a fair cross-section of ships and people spanning two centuries. That's a large sample group to judge from. The trend is clear.
And I'm fairly sure that "Federation Standard English" has received a mention once or twice, and then there's the little fact that largely every document and display is *written* in it... Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
This amazing heap of evidence of course somehow precluding any sort of translation software in use, or multiplicity of languages, or anything else.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
By that logic, the official spoken language of everyone in the Star Wars movies was English, too.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
MMoM said:
"(The only way it was ever suggested was the 2161 founding date on the Starfleet Academy banner from "The First Duty" [TNG], and all that *really* tells us is that '61 was the year in which the ACADEMY was established, not necessarily Starfleet itself.)"
Troi mentioned that the Federation was founded in 2161 (two's one's and six's were 'wild' in their game of poker on Federation Day.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Star'fleet. Fed'er'a'tion.
I'm getting a sameness-negative reading.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
oh sorry. no, I'm not f░ck you! j/k Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Well, I think they're different because they're controlled by two different organizations: United Earth government and United Federation of Planets. It also seems that UFP Starfleet got a new charter. ESF is clearly the predecessor but nevertheless much different than UFP SF (USS prefix, new directions, ships from other founding members, new class/registry-scheme,...).
BTW: Doesn't the E-D's dedicaton plaque say "Fifth starship to bear the name"? It seems that Earth Starfleet vessels are not included.
[ February 14, 2003, 03:44 AM: Message edited by: Spike ]
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
The thing that suggests to me that English is the main/official language is the names of ships written on the hulls. Enterprise and Constitution can be excused as they are like Yamato, named after real ships, but Defiant, Valiant, Ambassador, Concord, Dauntless, Destiny, Fearless, Freedom, Galaxy, Nebula, etc are all English words, which are clearly painted in Roman characters on the hulls of Starfleet ships.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Well no shit, if the United States had it their way every country would be spelling things in English, and at that, spelling them wrong...to think..."Endeavor"!
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
Ah, but Starfleet spells it Endeavour Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Which means proper English and not American English is the official language!!! Which is how it should be. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
YAY!! Have we seen anything like "harbour"/"harbor" or "crystalise"/"crystalize" on Trek?
Oohhh Sabre/Saber
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Which means proper English and not American English is the official language!!!
It just means that the ship was named after the HMS Endeavour.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
They all say loo-tenant, and not l'tenant or lef-tenant, which would suggest that they speak American English.
However, it is possible they speak with American English and spell with "real" English. I doubt Starfleet would paint on a ship a word that most humans would think was a spelling mistake, previous ship named that or not.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
just like they painted the space shuttle with what americans would perceive as a spelling mistake? or the concorde? i think its perfectly plausible, its being done to specifically honor a past vessel.. and many vessel names are old enough to have lost all meaning..
maybe they all speak interlac or galacta, and the words and writing are simply translated into American English by the universal translator for our viewing?
BTW, i hate this theory, but it is a consideration.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
In the DS9 episode with the small runabout, they are sitting next to the registration number and desrribe the 0 of 74205 as "a big black circle", or something similar. If the numbers are how they appear to be to us, its a safe bet the letters are too.
Also, the Endeavour Shuttle would be read as normal by British people, and Concorde by French people. For "international" projects, like these really are, this is acceptable. I can't imagine the US Navy calling a ship "Endeavour" or "Honour". Endeavour in Star Trek would be a mistake to absolutely everyone if American spelling is standard.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
not necessarily.. the number system has changed independantly from the letter system like, a MXLVII times!.. so the letters could have changed completely or the language under them could have, leaving the numbers the same.. we could go over this .
BTW i still hate this theory, im just playing devils advocate.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
The starship name on the USS Tsiolkovsky's dedication plaque is written in Cyrillic characters. If the universal translator translates into English so we can read the letters from the Vulcan Standard Logical Alphabet or something, it would have translated that.
(I'm quite pleased with myself for that )
(BTW, I now have ridiculous images of the USS Enterprise NCC-MDCCI-D stuck in my head)
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Phoenix: However, it is possible they speak with American English and spell with "real" English. I doubt Starfleet would paint on a ship a word that most humans would think was a spelling mistake, previous ship named that or not.
*cough*BRATTAIN*cough*JENOLAN*cough*
Excuse me. Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"The starship name on the USS Tsiolkovsky's dedication plaque is written in Cyrillic characters. If the universal translator translates into English so we can read the letters from the Vulcan Standard Logical Alphabet or something, it would have translated that."
We also don't always get translations of alien words. Klingon, especially. And any alien computer interface is always un-translated. Presumably, we only get translations of "Federation Standard" or whatever (except in special cases like when aliens are tlaking to each other, and we need to hear what they're saying), and the dedication plaque was actually written w/ Cyrillic letters.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: And any alien computer interface is always un-translated.
Surely the fact thay alien letters are never translated shows that the magical universal translator just can't do that.
(And the Starfleet Bureau of Painting Things on Ships must be run by idiots. They misspelt the two MM mentioned, wrote NCC-1305-E on the Yamato (presumably as a joke (and then had to change it back when the Captain noticed)), and made a complete mess of the USS Nash. Perhaps one of these "jokers" served on the original NCC-59650 Prometheus (Norway Class perhaps) and decided to paint that number on the new one as a "tribute".)
Posted by Brown_supahero (Member # 83) on :
I think the D should appear.
Yes the NX looks better, but not mass producable. I don't think SF has the capability of mass producing the NX. the D is more feasable, plus i would put money down on the D rolling on the NX
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
If they do, I don't think they should show her like we know her. I mean keep the basic shape, but the overall design looks to primitive even in today's standards.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote: They all say loo-tenant, and not l'tenant or lef-tenant, which would suggest that they speak American English.
Probably because they're mostly American .
Also I'm personally fairly sure that the US was almost entirly destroyed in WWIII; it would be the main target after all. In fact, I've always had a theory that the reason that the Australians were the last to join the UE govt was that Australia was the most powerful nation left relatively intact after WWIII (After all, would you bother nuking it? ).
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:I've always had a theory that the reason that the Australians were the last to join the UE govt was that Australia was the most powerful nation left relatively intact after WWIII
That was just hypothetical, wasn't it?
I think Beverly said something like
quote:Think about Earth -- what if one of the old nation-states, say Australia, had decided not to join the World Government in 2150? Would that have disqualified us from being a Federation member?
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
Yes, they are mostly American, but not all are. Notably, Picard says "loo-tenant" in an English accent (although he is supposedly French (perhaps he went to a boarding school in England)), which suggests that American pronunciation is universal.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Or maybe because it is written by and filmed in [US of] American.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote: That was just hypothetical, wasn't it?
Well, yes, but wasn't there something about Austrailia being the last nation state or something? I'm sure it's in the Chronology (I know, I know...).
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:I'm sure it's in the Chronology
And what source does the Chronology state for this information?
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
If America was destroyed in WWIII, it would seem a little odd for it to be (seemingly) the dominant country in Enterprise. And as to the subject of nations still around, we know that Britain is at least at the time of Enterprise, due to the Royal Navy references (unless Britain conquered lots of other countries and made itself an enormous Empire again (an idea I am not altogether opposed to ))
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
For the record, the Chronology states nothing about Australia being the last nation-state, it simply says that it joined a world government in 2150. However, it does speculate in the commentary section that the country may have been a holdout, since a world government was suggested to have been established as early as 2113 in First Contact. (50 years after Cochrane's first warp flight.)
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
That's it! Sorry, this was another instance of me half remembering something I read ages ago and couldn't be arsed to check . basically it is all total speculation based upon, well, more speculation. I was half inclined at one point to write a history of WWIII so I thought of quite a bit to do with it.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Phoenix: Yes, they are mostly American, but not all are. Notably, Picard says "loo-tenant" in an English accent (although he is supposedly French (perhaps he went to a boarding school in England)), which suggests that American pronunciation is universal.
He does say "leff-tenant" in one episode, although it escapes me at the moment.
I presume he pronounces it American-style because he knows that real-speak will confuse all those Yanks he works with. It was bad enough when he lent Riker his copy of Philospher's Stone. Poor old Will walked around for a week confused as to how something could be described as "rubbish".
As a counter, in Generations Kirk pronounces Tuesday in a Canadian/British/Real-speak way ("Tews-day"), whereas Harriman says it in silly American speak ("Toos-day"). So some dialects have stuck.
And, personally speaking, when I talk about Trek with my Really Cool Friends Who Have Sex, we tend to say "loo-tenant so and so", simply because that's what they say on the show.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
It's bad enough you spell Latin words the French way, but now you're defending the addition of 'f' sounds in words w/ no letters that have sounds even resembling 'f'.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
That's because it's correct. Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: It's bad enough you spell Latin words the French way, but now you're defending the addition of 'f' sounds in words w/ no letters that have sounds even resembling 'f'.
It's our language we can do what we bloody well like with it! Mind you, our pronunciation of Lieutenant never made much sense to me either (probably due to an over exposure to star trek at an early age). I even went so far as to ask a squaddie about it once, to which he replied in a rather scalding tone "Coz that's wot the Queen says!"...So there.
As for Picard's accent; his whole family seam to have British accents as does his friend Lewis (was he supposed to be French too? I forget) so perhaps Britain conquered parts of France during WWIII or perhaps there was a mass migration of Brits to mainland Europe during the post atomic horror because our poor little island got nuked to buggery and was rendered largely uninhabitable. (not that it's ever been particulary pleasent before hand) Then again perhaps Scotland won the World Cup and the English emigrated in disgust. Another possibility is that the universal translator just makes them sound British because the Yanks think it's cute.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
.. merde.. Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
just to muddy the waters....
When I'm typing "lieutenant" I always say to myself "lew-e-ten-ent" for some reason it helps me remember the "lieu" --- force of habit, you learn to do something one way and you keep doing it no matter how stupid it is.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
As long as we're writing pseudohistory, what about redoing some of WWII? When France's fall seemed inevitable, one of Churchill's sillier ideas was to merge France and the UK into a single nation to ensure continuing resistance. Nothing came out of it at that time, of course - even de Gaulle hated the idea. But what if...?
Oh, and IMHO, Daedalus should appear.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Yeah, the Daedalus should definitely appear.
quote: perhaps Britain conquered parts of France during WWIII
This is the better scenario by a long way. can't have the frogs getting too uppity can we? I like to think that we got off OK in WWIII, at least compered to the US. I think we have to accept that France got off OK too as the Eiffel tower is still standing (on the other hand it could be a holographic recreation so Americans know which city they're looking at ).
More speculation: that Colonel Green bloke (or whatever his name was) betrayed the US and took down the missile defense system so the eastern Coalition (Or whatever it was from FC) could nuke the US. Possibly some nukes landed in Europe and I have no doubt about SE Asia being taken out (weren't they Asiatic looking in 'Encounter at Farpoint'?). Conventional fighting pretty much everywhere, global economy is totalled, governments in total disarray etc. Australia/NZ and some European countries only ones left in any kind of fit state but still takes a while for the governments to regain control and so on.
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. Earth Starfleet is an integral part of what becomes the Federation Starfleet. Much as Earth becomes the capital planet ("heart") of the Federation, the term "Starfleet" becomes the personae of the Federations conglomeration of starships. As all of the "fleets", i.e. Vulcan vessels and Andorian vessels as well as Earth vessels became integrated into a single Federation fleet (a combination of presumably these forces), a single entity known as the "Federation" Starfleet is formed...it just so happens to have a Earth term applied to it as the Federation starfleet is probably not composed of JUST Earth derived vessels as we see in the later series.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
no, I'm not f░ck you! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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