*edit by CC: What did I tell you people about image linking? Read me.
[ September 02, 2002, 19:11: Message edited by: Charles Capps ]
Posted by Eric Cartman (Member # 256) on :
You mean Bird of Prey, don't you? Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
^^^^
Well, I'm not entirely sure...
Is there a second pair of wings below? Like the real warbird? Or just two wings?
Posted by Eric Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Only two AFAICT, unless, of course, the bottom half of the ship is cloaked.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
SPOOOOOOOGE!!!
Mark
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Hmmm... I don't know... it's alright, but I'm not wet-myself impressed. I'll wait until I see her in action before making a judgement, though.
Posted by Captain-class, Mike-variant (Member # 709) on :
CTRL-C
CTRL-V
Brightness increase Contrast adjustment..
SPLOOGE!
BTW.. it doesnt have to not be a warbird just cuz its not the DDeridex.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
I'd be remiss in my nitpicking if I didn't say that the nacelles look amazingly like a Dominion ship's nacelles, and that the whole ship in general looks similar to the Klingon Raptor in shape. Nevertheless, it's the newest Romulan ship we've seen in years, so I'm happy about that.
I thought Sternbach was the one who designed the Valdore? This ship looks like another Eaves design to me. I had also thought that Sternbach was just going to upgrade the TNG Warbird for the Valdore. Does anyone else think that this ship is nowhere near as large as a D'Deridex?
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
Maybe there'll be another D'deridex with some updates and they just created a new class for the Valdore and the other Warbird because they get some more screen time than the rest of the known romulan fleet.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
I liked the old warbird better.
Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :
Judging by the neck, the bottom seems to be some sort of double hull design...or...is it.....
I think it looks less impressive than the old warbird. It has more of an "ST Armada" small cruiser feel to it.
It's hard to believe it's double the size of the Galaxy.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
Seeing post-Dominion War designs for Trek movie, starting with the Son'a-collector up until the new Warbird, we shouldn't have expected anything else. I think it's better than Scimitar, but it's also just cool-looking tech. The old Warbird had something I would call a soul.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The new warbird seems to be at least 50% larger than the old TNG one. In the article that the pic came from mentions that Picard has to zoom out to see the entire ship. That is one biiiig birdie, when you figure that the Enterprise crew was certainly expecting a TNG warbird. I like it: I can build it once specs become available: It looks cooler than the TNG version IMHO and waaay cooler than the Scimitar. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
And no, those are not Dominion nacelles.
Posted by Magnus de Pym (Member # 239) on :
Obviously.
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: The new warbird seems to be at least 50% larger than the old TNG one. In the article that the pic came from mentions that Picard has to zoom out to see the entire ship. That is one biiiig birdie, when you figure that the Enterprise crew was certainly expecting a TNG warbird. I like it: I can build it once specs become available: It looks cooler than the TNG version IMHO and waaay cooler than the Scimitar.
I thought the Scimitar was the one that was supposed to be so huge?
Posted by Dr. Phlox (Member # 878) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: And no, those are not Dominion nacelles.
No one said they are, only that they look like them. Just as this looks like a Klingon BoP and the Scimitar looks like a Dominion Battleship.
I'm not impressed by this at all. I was expecting a D'deridex with... I dunno, fins or something. Why are all the "new" designs for important ships rip-offs of old ones?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
One thing that I am hopeful of, though... They're obviously putting some effort into designing new ships for this movie (their argueable lack of quality notwithstanding). I am somewhat hopeful that we'll get to see one or two new Federation designs as well. Maybe Riker's ship.
Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
I think it looks peachy. Whereas scale maybe decpetive at first glance, the teeny little windows on it suggests that it really is quite massive.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Well, it looks a bit too close to the basic layout of the Klingon Bird-of-Prey, but it's still a very cool design. I can't wait to see it on the big screen.
As for the size of the thing, most of the online references I've seen suggest a length of 1400 meters -- twice that of the Enterprise-E. But in "reality," the D'Deridex was somewhere around 1341 meters... at least originally.
I don't see anything that would suggest a double-hull design -- from what I can see on the picture, there's nothing "underneath" aside from the normal starfield.
And those nacelles do look similar to those on the Dominion heavy cruiser ("Call to Arms"), IMO. Obviously not the same design, but the curves look alike.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Naw, I've built the Dominion heavy cruiser, and it's nacelles are more pontoon-like in shape. The nacelles on the new Warbird most resemble extra fuel tanks from a jet fighter.....it also adds to the deceptive size/scale aspects.... If the new Warbird is 1400 meters long, it would have to be 1700-1900 meters across!!! Much larger than even the Dominion battleship in width and almost as long in length. this thing would dwarf the Enterprise E. Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
Judgeing by the window size, I don't believe the vessel should be larger than the D'deridex, on the other hand, Sovereign is 700 meters and looks tiny, if you just compare the windows.
- Take 1 head of a TNG Romulan Warbird - Add the neck, tail and wings of a Klingon Vorcha class attack cruiser - Mount some oddly-Dominion-like-looking nacelles - Paint the ship in a blackish green instead of the TNG Romulan green (which was much lighter) - Step on the damn thing and squash it to make it look flat=sleek=geekish=COOL
Enjoy...! (Although I didn't. I don't like it very much... have to see it onscreen though to make my final judgement)
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: I was expecting a D'deridex with... I dunno, fins or something. Why are all the "new" designs for important ships rip-offs of old ones?
Congratulations! You have made the computer sputter and smoke, and the population of our humble planet is now free from its innovation-stifling influence. And after so many others had failed in their attempts to force it to find a word that rhymes with orange or tell us what the sound of one hand clapping is. Hip hip, sir. Hip hip hooray!
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote: Paint the ship in a blackish green instead of the TNG Romulan green (which was much lighter)
Which is a good thing, as Warbirds haven't been a TNG green colour since "The Die Is Cast" (and I'm not even sure they were then).
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
And while I was at it, I could not help myself from putting a different sort of fin on a Romulan ship: Thei: "Tell the Federation--" Ackbar: "It's a trap!" Thei: "Yes, I was getting to that. Tell the Federation...it's a trap."
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
I was thinking that it had a few fighter-esque qualities to it also, the shape and feel gives it the appearance of a smaller, more manuverable, vessel.
Looks cool still though....
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
^ I was talking about extra weapons and attachments like the Future Enterprise had, on the Nemesis site, it says that there are upgraded Warbirds with these sort of features. Although I can't remember any Finnish on Star Trek, it would be nice to see them. Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Er, who's that?
Posted by NightWing (Member # 4) on :
Something I pasted together with my limited Paintshop knowledge:
Now that makes the Valore seem even more black and un-Romulan.
And no one's going to tell me the Warbirds on DS9 had a color that looked anything like the Valore's.
Posted by E. Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Because, as we all know, Romulan warships have never been painted anything but bright green. The BoP from Balance of Terror and the scout vessel from The Defector were of the same tint! Yes.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:And no one's going to tell me the Warbirds on DS9 had a color that looked anything like the Valore's.
Are we allowed to tell you that the Romulan ships on DS9 were a different colour to the ones on TNG? And that species are actually allowed to use different colours on their ships?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Dude. You say?
Posted by USSMillennium74754 (Member # 822) on :
Wait a minute... the warbirds on DS9 and the scoutship/science vessel weren't colored green(ish)? When did that happen? Posted by Dr. Phlox (Member # 878) on :
^ About the time they started using CGI Warbirds. They're definitely still green, just a lot darker, like the Valdore.
From Pedro's Shiporama
Posted by USSMillennium74754 (Member # 822) on :
That's what I guessed... I thought I had missed something and DS9 started showing jet-black warbirds. Honestly, though, the mesh as seen on Voyager and in Starship Spotter/Ships of the Line still looked pretty green...
God, I miss the D'deridex already. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Welcome to space. TNG always looked like there was a big flashlight on all the ships (and in fact they did!) until around 5th season. DS9 was visually always darker than the other shows....to match the overall tone of the show. We have only seen a total of five Romulan ships before Nemesis, so who is to say what a Romulan ship should look like? .....although many of the FASA designs were pretty good...Valdore lookslike an updated FASA design to me!
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Come to think of it, the computer model of the D'deridex was built for "Message in a Bottle," wasn't it?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
"We have only seen a total of five Romulan ships before Nemesis, so who is to say what a Romulan ship should look like?"
Arrgh I hate these types of lines (no offence).
Until the opening scene of Encounter at Farpoint, we had only seen 5 Federation ships... but we knew what a Federation starship should look like.
=====
Just reprising what I said in a thread in the General Trek forum...
I decided to have a look at this new ship, when I clicked the link and saw it for the first time... I laughed! LOL!
What a joke, it looks like something culled from a computer game!! Infact worse.
========
DS9 D'Deridex's weren't intentionally painted darker - it's the CGI problem. The CGI models are rendered with less resolution when they are moving (which would be EVERYTIME on a TV show)... it gives less clear pictures and caps (especially).
And to Liam's quip about the Haven ship... I'd rather that over-used ship with the child's lawnmower toy in it than a lot of the crap served up by Eaves.
What happened to the 24th century artistic/futuristic/lovely curved ships. What is with all this 'pointy/spindly stuff'!?!
Love them or hate them These ships say 24th century to me:
The Galaxy family and shuttles Runabouts The Intrepid D'Deridex Rommie Scout/Science vessel Ferengi Marauder Ferengi Pod Klingon Vorcha Klingon Negh'var/Voodieh Defiant Cardassian Galor and Keldon Cardassian Hideki Hope/Olympic Dominion Bug Bajoran ship (That Kira commanded) McKinley station Terok Nor Peregrin/Fedfighter/Maquis ships
Maybe:
The Akira Sovvie Jemmie Battlecruiser Jupiter Station New large Cardassian/Dominion station Klingon station (Ty'gok'or)
What doesn't:
Rest of FC ships Lakul Breen Ship This new Rommie ship The Son'a shite The new Captain's yacht Data's scout New Suttle That Argo ship The Holodeck ship Pathfinder array
This "doesn't" list includes the most "gamish" un-artistic, dark, poorly lit, pointy, unfuturistic, fanboish and majorly UNREALISTIC designs on Trek.
Realism people - that's what trek holds for me. I can picture walking the decks of the Enterprise, or making my way onto the bridge of a D'Deridex Warbird... This shite ship shown... looks like something you'd be able to select in level 10 of some Trek computer game. press F10 to target, right click on your mouse, fire. etc.
It's the design, but its also it's realism.
Maybe it has something to do with the thought behind it.
Liam - what I am talking about in reguards to it's "BoP-made-over look" is that it shares LOTS of features with the BoP that - they've tried too hard to use that ship (which has never been officially Romulan) and give it a Romulan makeover. Stick greeblies and spikes coming out of it to make it look so tough and cool (sorry I can't do the Fan-Boi speak/type ) and then paint it a different green.
The 'gun area' The mid-aft bulge section The neck and head (give a touch of a 'beak')
Think of Romulan ships and you think Fat, Green and arrogant. Look at this ship - you'd think it's a reject from Voyager's "Drive".
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
I must admit I don't really like this. Just doesn't look right, not sure why. I agree with Andrew completely (although I do like the Steamrunner).
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote: What happened to the 24th century artistic/futuristic/lovely curved ships.
We're possibly looking at different ships here, but I'h having trouble seeing how a runabout is "curved" or "artistic". It looks bulky and workman-like to me (which is what it should look like, but still).
quote:Until the opening scene of Encounter at Farpoint, we had only seen 5 Federation ships... but we knew what a Federation starship should look like.
And if someone had shown us the Defiant after Encounter at Farpoint, people would have had a fit.
I'm not sure where the figure of "5 Romulan ships" has come from. By my count, there's been three. The original BOP, the D'Deridex, and the scout ship. The Klingon D7 cruiser hardly counts.
And out of those three ships, only one is a starship that the Romulans have used in the past 20 years. So really, we only have one ship to use as an example of how the Romulans build their starships.
quote:DS9 D'Deridex's weren't intentionally painted darker - it's the CGI problem. The CGI models are rendered with less resolution when they are moving (which would be EVERYTIME on a TV show)... it gives less clear pictures and caps (especially).
I'm not sure I agree. I think Jason is right, the darker colours were to better fit in with the mood of the series. Besides, they were darker in "The Die is Cast", and they weren't using CGI ships then.
quote:Realism people - that's what trek holds for me. I can picture walking the decks of the Enterprise, or making my way onto the bridge of a D'Deridex Warbird.
Really? It's always seemed like a terrible waste of space to me. I like the design, and it's probably an attempt by the Romulans to make a really big ship without having to fill it with stuff, but still, exactly what is in those massive wings?
It doesn't look especially BOP-ish to me anyway. It looks more like the D'Deridex with the bottom half taken off.
Posted by Dr. Phlox (Member # 878) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: I'm not sure where the figure of "5 Romulan ships" has come from. By my count, there's been three. The original BOP, the D'Deridex, and the scout ship. The Klingon D7 cruiser hardly counts.
D'Deridex, BoP, Scout Ship, Science Ship and the Shuttle from DS9. I think the D-7 should count too, since they did use them.
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: It doesn't look especially BOP-ish to me anyway. It looks more like the D'Deridex with the bottom half taken off.
I can see similarities with the Klingon BoP. The overall shape, the way the nacelles are canted like the BoP disruptors, the feather pattern on the wings, and a few other minor things. But then this new Warbird reminds me of a few other ships too, especially the Jem'hadar battle cruiser.
The new wide wings look as though the lower half of D'deridex wings have been folded out.
And what's with the nacelles? Other than being too obviously Eavesish, it looks as though each wing has two nacelles - a long spikey one and a short stumpy one next to it.
Looks like a damn big ship anyway.
Posted by NightWing (Member # 4) on :
I'm betting the 'stomps' are weapon pods.
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
I'm with AndrewR on this one completely. And I'm sure the color thing is due to the CGI - as well as the "I don't give a shit about design"-attitude of TPTB.
In "The Die is Cast" the Warbirds weren't darker at all. Sometimes they were poorly lit, sure, but when they were not you could still see the original color. I've enhanced the Valore pic in PaintShopPro and it still looks almost pitch black.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
At the risk of being rude, your personal aesthetic choices do not instantly become universal design rules when you put them on the internet. Lots of people happen to not like many of these "canonical" 24th century ships. (Also, the Lakul? Uh, a ship that was being used 60 years before TNG doesn't look TNG enough? I am confused?) And many people happen to like many of the ships listed as being bad and evil and wrong.
Some of you do not like certain designs. Wow! An amazing revelation! And I am glad of it. This would be a very tedious place if we all liked the same things when it came to starships. But just because you don't like it doesn't make it a rule. Not by a longshot.
Now, as regards the "they wouldn't like it at Farpoint" argument, this I do not understand. When the Romulan warbird showed up we had seen a great whopping two Romulan ships. The warbird looks almost entirely unlike either of them. We know for a fact that Romulan ships are white with a hawk painted on the bottom, for one thing. Where is the continuity? Obviously, Probert is a hack who cares nothing for his work.
Frankly, I'm not bowled over by this new ship either. Mostly because I can only see about a third of the thing from that poorly lit picture. But I am under no illusion that my personal taste is somehow The One True Way.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
I'm not sure if that's what they're supposed to be, but do those little light green thingies on the head look like lifepods to anyone else? Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
quote:Originally posted by NightWing: I'm betting the 'stomps' are weapon pods.
You might very well be right. It's just that the stumps look very similar to the D'deridex nacelles.
Um, your signature, NightWing. Wasn't the line "...the Vulcan woman on Star Trek", not Enterprise? That's the way I remember it anyway.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
"The Vulcan woman on Enterprise."
Definately Enterprise
=============
Reguarding the D'Deridex:
"Really? It's always seemed like a terrible waste of space to me."
Typical Romulan Arrogance I reckon.
==============
The Defiant and the Runabout still look more in line with the idea of "Technology unchained" than something like the bloody Holodeck ship or the scout ship.
And I don't think many would have a fit with the Deffie after farpoint... look at the RELATIVE bizzareness of the Oberth class. The Defiant still has a distinct Federation feel and look. This new Romulan ship looks like a Fan-boi (cool lets put lots of weapons on it and make it fifty times as long as a Galaxy class ship!! - excuse me for not writing in the Fan-boi text that some of you do. )
The ship has basically nothing in common with ANY romulan ships that we have seen in the last 36 years. Except that it's green (an incorrect green). It has a warbirdish 'beak'. It looks - at the risk of repeating myself - more like they've taken the Klingon BoP model (seen in like 5/9 movies) and added Eaves-esque nacelles, and smoothed out the aft/central/dorsal 'pod' area... it's even got the two just distal of mid-line rectangles that emerged either side of the old Klingon BoP red impulse/engine thing. (I'd like to see what that area looks like on this thing)
Then they've added a Warbird Beak and a few windows.
Now, I wonder what this Reman ship will end up looking like.
Andrew
P.S. Please lets have these huge ships act like gigantic captial ships and not have them buzzing around like the Defiant/Jemmie Bug/Fighter etc.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The two "distal midline rectangles" are on the Dierdrex Warbird too: at the bottom junction for the "head" (if we are talking about the same thing). I always thought those were giant shuttlebays....where else could shuttlebays be on the TNG Warbird?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I just wonder how all these extremely wide and flat ships will fit on the screen. Sure, the silver screen itself is wide and flat. But there's still only so much you can do with formations and maneuvering when your ships are shaped like that, and forced to fly in the same horizontal plane and in the same orientation. The screen will get very crowded very soon.
With the two broad and flat Son'a ships, they did some nice "staggered formations". And the ships nicely "hovered over" the poor E-E during the first big flyby scene where Son'a reinforcements arrive over Baku. But "hovering over", while menacing, doesn't work as a snazzy combat maneuver. And having the enemy ships staggered makes it look as if they'd collide with each other any minute.
And the long and narrow E-E is the one they make do a roll? That's a sensible maneuver, but visually not all that impressive. An end-over-end thing like the Discovery in "2010" would fit that ship better...
In contrast, one of these bird-ships could do a very nice roll, but would look comical flipping like the BoP did in "Way of the Warrior." The birdlike nature almost forces it to maneuver like an aircraft, which ain't all that cool.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:The new warbird seems to be at least 50% larger than the old TNG one. In the article that the pic came from mentions that Picard has to zoom out to see the entire ship.
I just read this again... this is just an opinion isn't it... cause this ship being bigger than a D'Deridex doesn't gel with me. Comparing windows.
Just because Picard has to zoom out...
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
Why does anyone quote the 115 decks, twice the Enterprise-size thing? The official site gives these statistics for the D'Deridex. Below, you find information about the new Reman ship ("unknown origin blah blah") and about new types of Romulan ships, reports identified them as "modification of the standard warbird and ships of totally new design".
SS gives the 115 decks, IIRC, and the twice the size-stat is commonly known trivia. The new ship could be half the size of the D'deridex. Maybe Picard awaited a scout ship? Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I don't know where the 115 decks x2 Galaxy class comment came from. I think it might be from a diagram Probert did in season 1??
My theory goes that There are two sizes of "TNG Rommie Warbirds"
"A-Type" pretty much only seen in The Neutral Zone (to give the Feds a big shock) and "Contagion" (again as a posturing tool this time to counter a Fed incursion threat)
"B-Type" The D'Deridex class... The Smaller version pretty much seen in The Defector, Tin Man (especially the size difference in this episode is really evident). And probably most DS9 episodes and Voyager episode. (Message In A Bottle).
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
We do know that Probert intended the D'deridex to be 4400' (1341m) long and that size was used in "The Neutral Zone". It seems that later the VFX guys decided the ship looked too big and took it down to around 1km length (where it seemingly stayed).
I still don't like the idea of there being two different size TNG Warbirds. It's stupid. Just as stupid as the B'rel/K'vort nonsense.
Anyway, I like the Valdore. I do feel that it is faithful to the Romulan ship lignage. And best of all is that it actually looks menacing. I mean I like the D'deridex-class, it's one of my all time favourites, but it looks pathetically cuddly when compared to this new Bird.
Posted by NightWing (Member # 4) on :
The 115 decks stuff is from the Nemesis site, but is about the regular D'Deridex.
It also says 1280 meters in there.
There is no dimensional info about the Valdore.
Posted by Felix the Kzin (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: The ship has basically nothing in common with ANY romulan ships that we have seen in the last 36 years. Except that it's green (an incorrect green). It has a warbirdish 'beak'. It looks - at the risk of repeating myself - more like they've taken the Klingon BoP model (seen in like 5/9 movies) and added Eaves-esque nacelles, and smoothed out the aft/central/dorsal 'pod' area... it's even got the two just distal of mid-line rectangles that emerged either side of the old Klingon BoP red impulse/engine thing. (I'd like to see what that area looks like on this thing)
I find it quite amusing that this is a complaint for you, considering that the "Klingon" Bird-of-Prey was designed to be a ROMULAN vessel...
I think both the Valdore and the Scimitar look pretty damn good. So nyah!
-FtK Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Anybody got a decent pic of the Scimitar? Alot of people seem not to like the design, but I have yet to see a good shot of the ship and unlike the Valdore, paramount is not showing us pics. The best screen capture I've found of scimitar is over at the Ex Astris Scientia site and that is partially cloaked.
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: ...it's even got the two just distal of mid-line rectangles that emerged either side of the old Klingon BoP red impulse/engine thing.
Looks more like the ones on the (Romulan) D7 cruiser IMHO.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:I find it quite amusing that this is a complaint for you, considering that the "Klingon" Bird-of-Prey was designed to be a ROMULAN vessel...
Yes, and as we know that the BoP from ST:III was never mentioned to be Romulan, it was never a fact made 'canon'.
Although the BoP with it's wings UP looks nicely like the Rommie BoP from "BoT" [TOS].
BUT it eventually and now is a quintissential klingon design, so it made no sense to go back to it for a Romulan look.
And I had a squizz at the Reman ship... Whay is it with Eaves and pointy bits stuck all over a ship!?! From what we saw on all the TV Treks... this isn't something that is used with ANY race.
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
I'm starting to get the impression you don't like Eaves much, AndrewR. Am I right?
Posted by Akira62497 (Member # 850) on :
thought the romulans and the klingies traded technolgy (warp to the Romies for cloke to the klingies) so they could have traded ships and the klingies just use the romulan design and thats why it has a bird in it
just a theory
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
We're not quite sure if the two actually "traded" technology. Perhaps they only shared it by stealing from each other? But the ship designs of the two races certainly share similarities throughout the history.
This new warbird design is basically the Klingon Raptor with a D'eridex beak. There might have been some sharing going on in the 22nd century already, since the Klingons have this very birdlike, feathered Raptor yet it's the Romulans of that era who get to be known for their bird-painted ships.
Since the Klingons have built-in feather patterns there, but the Romulans only have paintwork on a smooth hull in TOS era (and presumably in the 22nd century as well), one could say the Klingons originated the bird motif and the Romulans just imitated them, first simply by repainting their ships, later by building Klingonlike vessels... And finally by out-Klingoning the Klingons in birdiness!
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dax: I'm starting to get the impression you don't like Eaves much, AndrewR. Am I right?
I didn't say I don't like him.
I don't know him.
I just don't like a few of his designs... they just haven't gelled nicely with what we've seen before. I'm about the same as others on here with their observations about 'eavesesque' design features... like those type of nacelles etc.
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
I didn't mean to imply you disliked Eaves as a person. As you said, I was refering to his designs. I quite like his work so I suppose I was getting overly defensive. Sorry.
I don't necessarily think it's bad that you can spot his designs by the features they have. All of the individual illustrators work tend to be similar in style. As a generalisation Probert's work is organic, Sternbach's is boxy, and Eaves' is sharp.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I guess I like boxy and organic as it is a nice train of thought from the designs of Matt Jefferies and later Nilo Rodis from TOS and the movies.
I don't like all this using pointy bits everywhere - it makes the ships look fake cause... well it's obviously easy to make in the 'puter and hard realistically to pull off - so looks like a computer generated model.
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
I fully understand your standpoint but I don't agree with it. I think I like Eaves' work for the reasons you have a problem with it -- it's radically different from what came before. I pretty much like all of Probert's designs but I have to admit that I find most of Sternbach's to be incredibly dull. With Eaves it is good to see some designs that are both exciting and well thought out (IMHO).
As for the computer generated thing, remember that both the Ent-E and the Jemmy battle cruiser were originally built as physical miniatures, yet they are still distinctive Eaves designs. BTW, if anyone has any photos of the Jemmy BC model I would love to see them.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I must agree with you about Sternbach being dull. For the most part. But Sternbach is also functional and utilitarian, which the original Jeffries and Chang and Probert and Minor were, and which Eaves isn't.
After having been spoiled by generations of economy-sized props and ships that have accepted functions for the various components - accepted since the later TOS movies and early TNG, that is - I can't help but criticize things like the dysfunctionally placed impulse engines and the wasted space on Eaves designs. (Actually, there are so few Eaves ships around that my main beef is with all those shuttles that are very large from the outside but have nothing to show for their size. They remind me of Worf's peashooter bazooka in "Insurrection"...)
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Dax Said: "As for the computer generated thing, remember that both the Ent-E and the Jemmy battle cruiser were originally built as physical miniatures, yet they are still distinctive Eaves designs. BTW, if anyone has any photos of the Jemmy BC model I would love to see them."
Yes, well maybe that is the problem. Those two ships don't look HALF bad (Not Fantasmagorical but not bad) Maybe they should be designed with "If it can't be built as a physical model, then it shouldn't be a design" I.e. All those pointy things that have no real need to be on there (on the Reman ship)... Like WTF? Same with some of those things on the new Romulan ships - like the pods near the nacelles - things are put there cause they might look 'cool' but they make it hard to picture the ship being really believable - i.e. existing physically.
Timo said: "But Sternbach is also functional and utilitarian, which the original Jeffries and Chang and Probert and Minor were, and which Eaves isn't."
Well that's what I like about their designs (I don't believe they are BORING) They are more REALISTIC. As I said earlier I could picture being in a work bee outside a nacelle of a Galaxy Class ship but, I really could see myself approaching that new Romulan ship's nacelles... they whole thing looks... fake.
Functional - yes. Things on most of the Trek ships have reasons, they haven't had things stuck on them just to make the ship look 'cool' or 'streamlined' etc.
And again, I think it has something to do with the whole CGI thing, cause it's easier to do a curvy ship than it is to make one more... rigid and thus more realistic.
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Dax Said: "As for the computer generated thing, remember that both the Ent-E and the Jemmy battle cruiser were originally built as physical miniatures, yet they are still distinctive Eaves designs."
Yes, well maybe that is the problem. Those two ships don't look HALF bad (Not Fantasmagorical but not bad) Maybe they should be designed with "If it can't be built as a physical model, then it shouldn't be a design" I.e. All those pointy things that have no real need to be on there (on the Reman ship)... Like WTF? Same with some of those things on the new Romulan ships - like the pods near the nacelles - things are put there cause they might look 'cool' but they make it hard to picture the ship being really believable - i.e. existing physically.
I see merit in the "if it can't be built physically then it shouldn't be a design" philosophy but it has limits. For instance, just because the Valdore possibly couldn't be built as a 4' miniature it doesn't necessarily mean it couldn't be built as a 4000' real ship (in the 24th century anyway). And we can't talk about the functionality of the Valdore nacelles/pods when we haven't seen the ship in action. I can't comment on the Reman ship at all as I haven't seen a good picture of it.
quote:Timo said: "But Sternbach is also functional and utilitarian, which the original Jeffries and Chang and Probert and Minor were, and which Eaves isn't."
Well that's what I like about their designs (I don't believe they are BORING) They are more REALISTIC. As I said earlier I could picture being in a work bee outside a nacelle of a Galaxy Class ship but, I really could see myself approaching that new Romulan ship's nacelles... they whole thing looks... fake.
For one thing, I only said I found Sternbach's designs boring, not Probert and the others. I don't have any problem with the Galaxy or D'deridex-class (in fact they're a couple of my all time favourites).
Secondly, the Valdore looks fake because it is. Same as how the CGI Galaxy, D'deridex, Sovereign, and all other CGI models look fake.
quote:Functional - yes. Things on most of the Trek ships have reasons, they haven't had things stuck on them just to make the ship look 'cool' or 'streamlined' etc.
I can agree that Eaves' designs can be lacking, but not devoid, of functionality. But I'd personally much rather have that than ship designs that are so uninspiring that seeing them makes me feel like taking a nap.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Something like the Galor though is very interesting. It's a striking ship that looked like nothing before it. It basically set the tone of what the Cardassians became. It's quite an intruiging ship.
(yes it's unfortunate that the K'Vort and it look similar.)
Posted by NightWing (Member # 4) on :
> Secondly, the Valdore looks fake because it is. Same as how the CGI Galaxy, D'deridex, Sovereign, and all other CGI models look fake.
I agree. Have you seen the difference between the Dominion Cruiser physical model and CGI model?
Just look for yourself in the episodes where the Dominion Cruiser is docked with DS9. Especially the stock footage of the top view. That's the physical model, and it looks fabulous! Very high details.
Now check out the Dominion Cruiser in battles, like in 'Sacrifice of Angels'. Very low detail, and utter crap!
When a friend of mine saw the Nemesis teaser the first thing he said: "The Enterprise CGI model looks awful! I don't understand why they don't still use the physical model."
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
"It's a striking ship that looked like nothing before it". Other than a back-to-front Vor'cha (not K'vort).
Anyway, don't get me wrong, AndrewR. I don't hate Sternbach's designs, I just think they're generally inferior to Probert's and Eaves' work. They're all great artists and have contributed so much to the franchise.
Speaking of the Nemesis trailer, who's doing the VFX this time around? I'm guessing it's not ILM.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I see merit in the "if it can't be built physically then it shouldn't be a design" philosophy but it has limits. For instance, just because the Valdore possibly couldn't be built as a 4' miniature it doesn't necessarily mean it couldn't be built as a 4000' real ship (in the 24th century anyway). I don't see the merit in that line of thinking due to gravity constraints. Physical models will always seem more likley to us (and more formidable too) because the models have to withstand the rigors of filming and are built to withstand gravity. In space the designs-alien in particular-would be MUCH more exotic than anything we've see so far. When TNG first started using CGI ships, we had this same issue in reverse: look at the totally fake and detail-less Hussnok ship! Mabye things will balance out over time... And we can't talk about the functionality of the Valdore nacelles/pods when we haven't seen the ship in action. I can't comment on the Reman ship at all as I haven't seen a good picture of it.
I totally agree with you here! Lots of people seem to be making judgments based on a three minute trailer! Remember how good movies liked STV or Insurrection looked from their trailers? I'm hoping the movie rocks-as befits any even numbered Trek film. Cross your fingers!
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I was expecting a D'deridex with... I dunno, fins or something. Why are all the "new" designs for important ships rip-offs of old ones?
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