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Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
 
I recently re-watched the DS9 season two finale, "The Jem'hadar." While watching, I remembered how disappointed I was to see that the Odyssey's bridge looked nothing like the Enterprise-D's. Even the Yamato, featured in two episodes of TNG, had a bridge similar to the Big E-D.

Then, I thought about modern naval warfare. It is rare nowadays for captains to command battles from the bridge of the ship. The bridge is mearly where the captain drives the ship. Battles, however, are commanded from CIC, or Combat Information Center, which is designed somewhat like a Trek bridge with the captain positioned in the center of the room. It is also located at the very center of the ship in the most secure area.

The Odyssey's captain could've been commanding the battle from the battle bridge, which with the saucer intact (as it was in the episode) would be in the very center, most secure area of the ship. It would also be fitting with the captain's personality-- he seemed very caught up in the trappings of militarism.

Of course, the simple explaination-- I am invoking Occum's Razor-- is that the TNG was probably using the bridge set at the scheduled time. Thus, forcing the DS9 crew to redress the generic TMP/TNG Battle bridge/E-C/Saratoga bridge set.

Discuss.

M.
 
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
Discussed. [Wink]

Mark
 
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
 
I figured. I realize it isn't the most original explanation. Sean Robertson made the same assumption in regards to the appearance to the E-C bridge in "Yesterday's Enterprise" at 3D gladiators. He proceeded to design a bridge that was a bridge between TNG and Trek V/VI.

M.
 
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
I have not heard this explanation yet... but I like it. Consider it now officially assumed on my part.

I'm sure everyone will sleep easier.
 
Posted by Triton (Member # 1043) on :
 
Well since Rick Sternbach added the replaceable bridge module to Treknology canon to explain the differences in bridge layout between Trek IV and Trek V. Keogh could very well have been commanding the ship from the main bridge and not the battle bridge or auxiliary control.

The shipyard might have had extra battle bridges/auxiliary control modules lying about when they built or refit the Odysssey and didn't want to go through the time and expense of fashioning a new Ent-D style bridge. [Wink]

But seriously, if you look at the ships of the US Navy you will realize that ships of the same class may have differences in some ship systems. For example, later members of the Ticonderoga-class have different missle launch systems and magazine arrangements. I am sure that there are countless other examples in US Navy and other navies of differences in certain systems among ships belonging to the same class.

I agree with you that the producers probably just used the battle bridge set to save money or resolve a set scheduling conflict. I think its fine that the producers did this, because the Odyssey bridge has such little screen time it wasn't necessary to design and build yet another bridge set. The producers wisely spent their limited budget on new makeup, models, and special effects for this episode.

It was quite shocking to see a Jem'Hadar attack ship make a suicide run and destroy a Galaxy-class starship for the first time. I think that my initial shock was due to the high quality of the special effects in this episode. The Odyssey came to violent and very fiery end. [Eek!]
 
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
I liked the Odddy's bridge just fine.
Better than the giant doctor's waiting room that is the Enterprise D's bridge. [Wink]
 
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
Well, we're talking about an ep made back in 1994, when they were busy filming "All Good Things. . ." with about three different redresses of the bridge set. Then going straight into shooting Generations which featured yet another redress of the bridge, culminating in it getting trashed, then broken down to start building the Voyager sets. I wouldn't be surprised if the DS9 production staff couldn't get a look in.
 
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
 
Well, isn't it also possible that the Odyssey was being commanded from its Battle Bridge? Not every Captain would necessarily stay in the main bridge, especially if they anticipated any need to do a saucer sep.
 
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
 
That brings us to one of Andy Probert's suggestions for TNG-- that the brigde be in the center of the vessel.

In one early production drawing he placed the main bridge in the same location that eventually went to the battle bridge. That way the Captain would never have to leave the bridge if the saucer seperated. One of the official Trek mags published the drawing. Alas, I cannot find that paticular issue.

M.
 
Posted by Jim NCC1701A (Member # 1021) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Middy Seafort:
Sean Robertson ... proceeded to design a bridge that was a bridge between TNG and Trek V/VI.

I couldn't find it in 3D Gladiators ST section [Frown]

Do you have a link for it?
 
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jim NCC1701A:
quote:
Originally posted by Middy Seafort:
Sean Robertson ... proceeded to design a bridge that was a bridge between TNG and Trek V/VI.

I couldn't find it in 3D Gladiators ST section [Frown]

Do you have a link for it?

It was awhile back. Don't remember around when. Mea Culpa.

M.
 
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
 
I guess if something comes close to a CIC it is main engineering. They used it more than once on TNG as a secondary command center when they didn't have access to the bridge.
Keogh said, IIRC, that he left most of the crew on DS9 before departing for the Gamma Quadrant. It would only be logical to use the more efficient battle bridge of the ship if you expect a fight. Furthermore, Keogh's plan could have been a seperation of the ship, he just didn't have time anymore.
 
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov:
[QB]Keogh said, IIRC, that he left most of the crew on DS9 before departing for the Gamma Quadrant.[QB]

I seem to remember that Dax suggested that he do this, and he indicated that it was unnecessary.
 
Posted by Dr. Phlox (Member # 878) on :
 
No, he said it was a very good idea and asked if she'd ever thought about serving on a starship. [Wink]
 
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
 
He didn't specifically say that, IIRC. What he said was more something to the effect of "mind your own business, woman!". I think he had already evacuated non-essential crew. Or perhaps he didn't have any non-essential crew left.
 
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
The Oddysey bridge set had the dedication plaque at the back of it. Ergo, main (or at least principally used) bridge. Ditto for the Sutherland, though most people agree in that case that it was a temporary bridge.

I see no reason this can't be the Oddysey's main bridge; Keogh could simply have wanted a cooler, or at least more spartan, main bridge reminiscent of older starships he served on. He could even have wanted to command principally from the battle bridge, modifying it into his main bridge. Not that it made a difference against the Jem'Hadar!

Mark
 
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
Hmmmm... I had forgotten that the plaque was there...

I have no problem with a Galxy class bridge module that doesn't look like the Ent D's... it just looks too small to be a Galaxy class main bridge.
 
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Bear in mind that we've also seen dedication plaques located in a ready room and a random hallway.
 
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Aban Rune:
Hmmmm... I had forgotten that the plaque was there...

I have no problem with a Galxy class bridge module that doesn't look like the Ent D's... it just looks too small to be a Galaxy class main bridge.

Why? THey might have a larger (possibly more tactically oriented) confrence room behind the bridge or mabye really big bathrooms.
...and the Ready room is immense.
 
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
Consider the Ready Room on Voyager. Humongous! And what becane the Mess Hall - that was the Captain's official dining room! So, maybe Keogh liked to have a hot tub in his office.
 
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lee:
And what becane the Mess Hall - that was the Captain's official dining room!

If you look at the first episode of Voyager, there was a bank of replicators along the wall opposite the windows in the Messhall. The Captain's Private Dining Room was accessible from the hallway on the other side of those replicators. It's only Neelix's kitchen area that was formerly the Captain's Dining Room, not the entire Messhall. There are occasions where you see someone enter or exit the kitchen from a doorway that leads to the hallway beyond.
 
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
Yes, yes - but Janeway was still bonkers. Mad, stark raving. Two sectors short of a quadrant, to coin a phrase.
 
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lee:
Yes, yes - but Janeway was still bonkers. Mad, stark raving. Two sectors short of a quadrant, to coin a phrase.

Funniest line I've heard all week. [Big Grin]

She's also a couple phaser emitters short of a full array. Couple drive coils short of a full impulse engine. Like a warp core that's running but there's no dilithium crystal. A holodeck with only Unsafety Protocals that cannot ever be turned off.

Ok, I'm done. [Razz]
 
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Nguyen:

I see no reason this can't be the Oddysey's main bridge; Keogh could simply have wanted a cooler, or at least more spartan, main bridge reminiscent of older starships he served on. He could even have wanted to command principally from the battle bridge, modifying it into his main bridge. Not that it made a difference against the Jem'Hadar!

Mark

Despite the fact that we've, as mentioned in a previous post, seen the dedication plaque in other areas of the ship, I don't have a problem with the assumption that it could've been the main bridge. Mark's right, there's no reason it couldn't have been.

However, I do disagree with the proposition that it was Captain Keogh that choose the decor of his bridge. Captains, at least going by the naval model that Starfleet is based upon, do not get to choose the look and function of the ship's bridge. It is based on function, not style.

Perhaps, as another explaination, the mission of the Odyssey was such that a living-room style command center was not needed. Rather, a sparten, functional one was needed. No mention, if memory serves, was made of the ship's long-term mission.

It could be assumed that it was on a similar 15-year deep space mission like the "E-D" and Yamamato, but then again the "E-D" did more politicking around the known galaxy than exlporing.

Discuss.

M.
 
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by SoundEffect:
If you look at the first episode of Voyager, there was a bank of replicators along the wall opposite the windows in the Messhall. The Captain's Private Dining Room was accessible from the hallway on the other side of those replicators. It's only Neelix's kitchen area that was formerly the Captain's Dining Room, not the entire Messhall. There are occasions where you see someone enter or exit the kitchen from a doorway that leads to the hallway beyond.

funny how the NX-01 is exactly like Voyager in that (and many other) respects.
 
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
quote:
Perhaps, as another explaination, the mission of the Odyssey was such that a living-room style command center was not needed. Rather, a sparten, functional one was needed. No mention, if memory serves, was made of the ship's long-term mission.

Discuss.

M.

It's just as possible that later Galaxy class starships did away with the giant living room as times changed and got tougher.
The Enterprise D and Yamato were two of the first GCS' made and I'm sure tweaking of interior design elements was done as the class grew and evolved.
Oddy could have been testing new technology, like that creepy holographic viewscreen from FC (okay, not as creepy as say, looking out a gaping hole in your bridge, but I digress).
Speaking of holo-tech, did we ever see holographic displays used in briefings after TNG season one?
Other than stellar cartography, that is. [Wink]
 
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
quote:
Perhaps, as another explaination, the mission of the Odyssey was such that a living-room style command center was not needed. Rather, a sparten, functional one was needed. No mention, if memory serves, was made of the ship's long-term mission.

Discuss.

M.

It's just as possible that later Galaxy class starships did away with the giant living room as times changed and got tougher.
The Enterprise D and Yamato were two of the first GCS' made and I'm sure tweaking of interior design elements was done as the class grew and evolved.
Oddy could have been testing new technology, like that creepy holographic viewscreen from FC (okay, not as creepy as say, looking out a gaping hole in your bridge, but I digress).
Speaking of holo-tech, did we ever see holographic displays used in briefings after TNG season one?
Other than stellar cartography, that is. [Wink]

True. The Odyssey could've been test running the tech eventually used in the "successor" to the Galaxy-Class-- i.e. the Sovy.

Not sure if the holo-display was used past "The Last Outpost." On that note, what happened to the holo-communicator from DS9.

M.
 
Posted by darkwing_duck1 (Member # 790) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Middy Seafort:
quote:
Originally posted by Jim NCC1701A:
quote:
Originally posted by Middy Seafort:
Sean Robertson ... proceeded to design a bridge that was a bridge between TNG and Trek V/VI.

I couldn't find it in 3D Gladiators ST section [Frown]

Do you have a link for it?

It was awhile back. Don't remember around when. Mea Culpa.

M.

Here's a link to Sean's "storage" site, where he's got just about all of his Trek interiors and a lot of other stuff too. All good work, but you have to get through the WIPS to the finished product (a tip: the higher numbers are more finished than the lower numbers).

http://www.webolutionary.com/truespace/gallery/seanr/temp/?M=A

BTW: I remember that ep (with the Odyssey), but I don't recall ever seeing the bridge in enough detail to see the Plaque.

Anyone got good caps, or better yet, a Fact Files cutaway of the bridge?
 
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
 
i doubt Fact Files could touch it.. i still believe that only two or three angles of that set were filmable, i don't think FF would be ambitious enough to try and extrapolate the design of a bridge that was never built.. even though we've determined that it wasnt just a 'backdrop'.. i.e. there was a railing and a side and back, and it was possibly made of the remnants of another bridge set, i sincerely doubt that they decorated and/or lit any parts of the bridge that werent shown.. meaning that we only know a small command area, railing and two walls.. (did we even see a turbo door?) it may be left up to us to determine what the damn thing looked like, since i doubt a definitive version was there in the first place..

this being said, i think a prime candidate for its layout would be something similar to something i just found thumbing through SeanR's temp directory.. its labeled as http://www.webolutionary.com/truespace/gallery/seanr/temp/bridge_neworleans2-1.jpg and resembles what i imagine a variant Galaxy bridge might look like, without the living room atmosphere, but still with the exact same layout and function as the ED bridge.. since we have formed the opinion that the bridge differences would not be governed by whim, it must follow that the differences have more real life sources.. i.e. construction differences, supply changes, mission variation, post-shakedown enhancement and design re-envisioning.. its labeled as a New Orleans-bridge, but i could also almost imagine it on an Akira.. same time period after all [Wink]
 
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Well, I just peed myself.
Fucking-in-credible.
I was going to ask why a smaller ship like a Springfield or New Orleans needed a Galaxy bridge, but that really is spot-on and makes he point moot.


....although on an Akira, I'd add the standing tactical station from the Soverign and an extra chair at the Con/Ops console.
And the furniture would be gray. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
Remind me - was the odyssey always intended, ie scheduled, to arrive at DS9? Or did it just come there because of the Jem'Hadar threat? Because I suppose a more combat-oriented Galaxy-class ship could exist, especially post-Borg incursion. . .
 
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Look at the Venture.
Definitely more combat-oriented (or at least capable) with the two extra nacelle phaser strips.
 
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
 
i dunno, i guess im wondering why here has to be a reason.. my factory Ford Probe radio has green LEDs.. my friend's factory radio from the same make and year as the car has red LEDS.. no engineering explanation, no special mission modification, just the fact that they werent built in the same time and place so there is individual modification
 
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
You're saying some ships go to "Green Alert"?


Really you're talking about availability of a single part (your LED light bulb)whereas a whole bridge change is much diffrent.....
Your idea about the ship's point of origin may be right though: Andorian shipyards might build to their own more militaristic viewpoint (within sertain guidelines).
No one said there can't be cultural and stylistic diffrences between ships of the same class.
....of course, it could be as subtle a change as gray seats and blue trim instead of red.
Does'nt explain te Venture though.
I'd think that a ship is specialized to it's intended role in the fleet: not all galaxy's would be explorers (as seen in everything after season four (ish) of TNG. [Razz]
 
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lee:
Remind me - was the odyssey always intended, ie scheduled, to arrive at DS9? Or did it just come there because of the Jem'Hadar threat? Because I suppose a more combat-oriented Galaxy-class ship could exist, especially post-Borg incursion. . .

Beginning of episode, Sisko asks when the Odyssey was due back and Kira responds with day after tomorrow or three days or something like that. Sisko then says he's sorry to miss Dax's reunion with Keogh as he's taking the Rio Grande into the Gamma Quadrant on his "working vacation".
 
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
That implies that the Oddy was a regular at DS9.
I always thought there was a bit of romantic tension between Dax and Keogh in that scene.
They definitely liked each other a bit.

With DS9's key strategic position (even before the Dominion was known)Starfleet likely had the Oddy drop by while she patrolled that area of space every so often to make sure all was well.

It's always good to have a GCS within a area for backup. [Wink]
 
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
That implies that the Oddy was a regular at DS9.

I got the impression, more like: they had been there once before, perhaps having stopped by on their way to where they were going and were now simply on their way back and had plans on passing through once more/again.

quote:

It's always good to have a GCS within a area for backup. [Wink]

Consider, too, that only two or threeish episodes back ("Tribunal") the Enterprise AND Valdemar were sorta nearby, enough so to be mentioned, having a GCS and an ACS within the area making for quite a show as well (for Season 2, that is). [Wink]
 
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
 
Sisko and Dax made a couple references to a previous encounter with Captain Keough and his ship.. i guess he and Dax didnt get along because of a prior conflict..
 
Posted by CaptainMike[1].mp3 (Member # 709) on :
 
probably because of letter envy.. half the letters in his name are useless!
 
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
 
Great Idea!!
 
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
Ahh, Darkstar. Gone but not forgotten. . .
 
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
Does anyone have any caps of the bridge for reference just to put a face on this topic?
 
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
There's a good idea!
Can anyone help here?
 
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
Spike! [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
I never fully understood why some people consider Keogh some sort of a soulmate of Jellico. To me, he came across neither as an asshole (which Jellico was to a degree) nor a warhawk (which Jellico might or might not have been - we only saw him during a military crisis, after all).

Nor would I take the Dax/Keogh banter as a sign of distrust between the two. It was mainly Kira and Sisko who thought there was "tension" between the two, and Kira has always been bad at reading Dax, and intolerant of her eccentricities.

In the end, Keogh was rather Picardian - elderly avuncular balding white male, condescending towards Sisko's people but affable with his old friends, ready to sacrifice an entire starship in the classic "stand your ground" maneuver to save a handful of people. And looking taller than he stood. Certainly his character is no reason to postulate a "military" mission for the Odyssey, whatever may be said about the bridge layout.

Why type this much on something this insignificant on a beautiful summer day? Mainly as a warning: don't read the recent "The Brave and the Bold" novels if you don't want your Keogh stereotyped the wrong way. Big letdowns, those four novellas in two books.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
I agree, though I always thought he was more "Picardish" than anything else. Personally, I think he was the best 'guest captain' we've seen. On that note, Alan Oppenheimer (Keogh), IMHO, would have been perfect for the Admiral Ross, that is if they had written Ross more in the vein of a Gen. Patten-type commander, than the wet noodle they developed Ross into.
 
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
 
Keough didn't come across as a gun-ho military type. He certanily wasn't a jarhead. I just felt that he had a bit more respect and understanding of the more military aspects of Starfleet-- a seasoned combat veteran, who knew how to lead a group into battle. Hence, my postulate that he commanded the ship from the battle bridge, which is much like the CIC of a modern naval vessel.

Upon reflection, he does come off a bit like Picard in the early years of TNG. But he comes off a bit more like the Picard originally envisioned for the series. The tough, hard ass commander who demands a lot from his crew and is a distant person with great intellect and passion.

M.
 
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
What's in a battle bridge? Who says it has to be a CIC? I mean, the supposed meaning of a battle bridge is simply the bridge where the secondary hull of a seperable starship is controlled.

There *is* no other real explanation for why a Galaxy-class starship has one. It's alledgedly a combat-oriented bridge because they would only really use it in combat situations. The main bridge has *always* been larger, able to support more people and therefore more functions. When Jellico took over the E-D, he reconfigured the bridge stations for combat operations. It would make sense to use a larger command centre than to simply go downstairs for a smaller room.

The *only* times we've seen the Battle Bridge live or mentioned is when they were going to separate. Hell, in shows where they COULD have gone to the BB, they went to Engineering instead ("Brothers", for one, although it's intrinsically cheaper to use the Engineering set than to tread out the BB set again) and ran the ship from there.

No, I'm thinking the Odyssey bridge is just that. Aside from the fact that the dedication plaque is there, I'm guessing it's just a different than the typical bridge as a simple upgrade, despite it looking less like the typical GCS sets we were familiar with. And riddle me this - if you think about it, it's not like the Odyssey bridge is LESS featured than the Enterprise edition. Both feature forward con/ops consoles, a tactical horseshoe, and aft stations. The Odyssey actually had one more aft station than the Enterprise, and they were larger. The only thing the Odyssey probably didn't have was five chairs in the command area - it had two, and probably three, with two non-CO chairs slightly behind Keogh.

Mark
 
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
Fitting Keogh's ego! [Smile]

As for the sitution in Brothers - maybe Data locked out the Battle Bridge as well... would have been nice to see it again.

Andrew
 
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lee:
Remind me - was the odyssey always intended, ie scheduled, to arrive at DS9? Or did it just come there because of the Jem'Hadar threat? Because I suppose a more combat-oriented Galaxy-class ship could exist, especially post-Borg incursion. . .

I don't know - but maybe Starfleet wasn't expeting the war-like response of the Jem'Hadar - I guess they wanted the best all-rounder ship to deal with the new and important First Contact situation.
 
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
You seem to forget the Jem'Hadars' "bigger teeth" reference....
 
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Nguyen:
What's in a battle bridge? Who says it has to be a CIC? I mean, the supposed meaning of a battle bridge is simply the bridge where the secondary hull of a seperable starship is controlled.

There *is* no other real explanation for why a Galaxy-class starship has one. It's alledgedly a combat-oriented bridge because they would only really use it in combat situations. The main bridge has *always* been larger, able to support more people and therefore more functions. When Jellico took over the E-D, he reconfigured the bridge stations for combat operations. It would make sense to use a larger command centre than to simply go downstairs for a smaller room.

The *only* times we've seen the Battle Bridge live or mentioned is when they were going to separate. Hell, in shows where they COULD have gone to the BB, they went to Engineering instead ("Brothers", for one, although it's intrinsically cheaper to use the Engineering set than to tread out the BB set again) and ran the ship from there.

No, I'm thinking the Odyssey bridge is just that. Aside from the fact that the dedication plaque is there, I'm guessing it's just a different than the typical bridge as a simple upgrade, despite it looking less like the typical GCS sets we were familiar with. And riddle me this - if you think about it, it's not like the Odyssey bridge is LESS featured than the Enterprise edition. Both feature forward con/ops consoles, a tactical horseshoe, and aft stations. The Odyssey actually had one more aft station than the Enterprise, and they were larger. The only thing the Odyssey probably didn't have was five chairs in the command area - it had two, and probably three, with two non-CO chairs slightly behind Keogh.

Mark

Wo, doggies, there, Mark. You misunderstand. I akin the battle bridge in being like CIC on a modern naval warship location-wise. Perhaps, I misspoke... er, mistyped. Nor am I stating as fact that it is the Odyssey's battle bridge seen in the episode. I am offering it up as a possible explaination.

I am quite willing to accept that it could also be the main bridge, as well. Both have merits to be argued.

Agreed there is no "real" explaination for the battle bridge other than the fact that it is by logic a bridge meant for battle.

Captain Picard's log entry from EaF states that he has transfered command to the battle bridge, where the stardrive section can confront the mystery while the saucer section takes the families to safety.

It is suggested by that first introduction to the battle bridge that it is SOP (standard operating procedure) for a Galaxy-class to seperate in times of combat so that families can seek refuge. Now, in the Odyssey's case this was not necessary as suggested by Dax's line of "you are planning to evacuate any none essential personnel to DS9."

Seperation in times of combat as SOP is also suggested by "Aresnal of Freedom," where Geordi and the engineer of the week argue on whether or not to seperate.

The real reason it was not seen more (Occum's razor once again) is that the six-foot model was the only one that could seperate and was essentially abandoned after the four-foot model was built in year 3 of TNG. The four-foot model also doubled as the Odyssey in "The Jem'hadar."

M.

[ July 16, 2003, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: Middy Seafort ]
 
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Not to mention the secondary hull looks really goofy alone.
 
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Middy Seafort:
CIC on a modern naval warship location-wise.

Actually, "on a modern US naval warship".

The Royal Navy calls it the "Operations Room", for example.
 
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sol System:
Not to mention the secondary hull looks really goofy alone.

I think it looks cool - and is something we DEFINATELY should have seen during the Dominion War.
 
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
Why? Why lose about 50% of the phaser emitters, plus who knows what else? It's not as if any Galaxys we saw during the war were going to have families on board.
 
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix:
quote:
Originally posted by Middy Seafort:
CIC on a modern naval warship location-wise.

Actually, "on a modern US naval warship".

The Royal Navy calls it the "Operations Room", for example.

Cool. I didn't know the official RN name for it.
 
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lee:
Why? Why lose about 50% of the phaser emitters, plus who knows what else? It's not as if any Galaxys we saw during the war were going to have families on board.

Lots of empty space - more efficient warp field/impulse maneuvring.
 
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
 
That and we could have seen the separated saucer as well, both in combat but acting independently of each other. You get to have additional ships to fight with.
 
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
Riker once said that he *didn't* want to separate because they could use the power from the saucer's impulse engines - probably for weapons, but possibly also for maneuverability (can anyone quote the line from BOBW Part One?). Later GCS appearances always show those engines lit - simple physics shows that the location of those engines would make yaw turns a heck of a lot easier. They were probably using it for extra acceleration and maneuverability - seven years of TNG amply proved that one engine was enough for speed, after all.

Then, we have the "Sternbach Galaxies" that left spacedock mostly empty and loaded with extra weapons, consisting most likely of additional torpedoes or phaser capacitors or tactical sensors or similar doomahickers that didn't break the profile. Also, most of the Galaxies seen in the Dominion War had no name or registries (which Sternbach attributed to these patch jobs). It's also entirely possible that these starships didn't have full bridge modules installed and relied on some BB module in the middle of the ship. [Wink]

Mark
 
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Sound thinking.

It's also possible that the saucer provides much needed S.I.F. emitters that a unfinished starship would need to operate at peak combat performance.
A big (mostly empty) saucer also would make a tempting target for enemy ships and whould not cause critical damages to crew or systems that were never installed in the first place. [Wink]

...and they look goofy without the saucer.
 
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
Why still no scans of this bridge, 4 pages later, on a topic about said bridge?
 
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
I don't think they would have designed a ship that could operate successfully in two parts - with the 'battle' section being named as such - for it to not work as well without the saucer.
 
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Well, by the same token, I don't think they would have bothered with building a single ship that could split into two if the ship didn't function better when it was integrated. If it takes a major performance drop when combined then it isn't worth trying to cram everything into a single vessel, and you'd be better off building two different classes.

As far as the TNG tech manual is concerned, the requirement for the Galaxy class was that it could seperate and function reasonably well in that mode, not that either section would be the equal of the whole. And what we've seen onscreen bears this out (even though what we've seen onscreen has been primarily an issue of aesthetics).
 
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
Those two GCS's in "Sacrifice of Angels" seemed nippy enough in close quarters. . .

Perhaps war-stock GCS's didn't even have the ability to separate: maybe that's the significance of the cobra-stripe ones we saw?
 
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sol System:
Well, by the same token, I don't think they would have bothered with building a single ship that could split into two if the ship didn't function better when it was integrated. If it takes a major performance drop when combined then it isn't worth trying to cram everything into a single vessel, and you'd be better off building two different classes.

OK then, wouldn't it be easier on resources to just build a lot of battle-sections/engineering sections from galaxy classes? And leave the space-frames of the saucers in storage?
 
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
I'm of the opinion that the GCS we saw in the war were all on the production line already, so it makes sense for all of them to ship out with both sections intact and together, thus keeping all the fun stuff in their hulls that I mentioned previously. You could probably build several smaller ships for the resource cost of one GCS, which is probably what they ended up doing in addition to finishing what they've got in dock. The only expections would probably those GCS in the prelimiary assembly phase, where those resources would be better put to use elsewhere.

The hull itself may have something to do with it, as we know that an intact hull is vital to optimal warp speeds - possibly even more than the mass of the ship itself. If the engines were built for optimal performance as a whole ship, you might prefer to keep it together.

And as speculated before, some of them could be outfitted for other missions, too; with some simple barracks, you could transport LOTS of troops and support in there. An quick internal expansion of the main shuttlebay would give a place for dozens of fighters. And of course, for the extra weapons and stuff too. There's place for any of these possibilities in the big fleet battles we saw, which involved needing to get to, capture, and then hold a strategic location.

Mark
 
Posted by CaptainMike.jpg (Member # 709) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by AndrewR:
quote:
Originally posted by Sol System:
Well, by the same token, I don't think they would have bothered with building a single ship that could split into two if the ship didn't function better when it was integrated. If it takes a major performance drop when combined then it isn't worth trying to cram everything into a single vessel, and you'd be better off building two different classes.

OK then, wouldn't it be easier on resources to just build a lot of battle-sections/engineering sections from galaxy classes? And leave the space-frames of the saucers in storage?
youve missed the point.. the stardrive section needs the saucer to maintain full potency.. however they thought it worked on paper, the saucer sep idea created little more than a lifeboat.. without the saucer reactors and phaser coverage the GCS is definitely worse off in battle separated
 
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Nguyen:
And as speculated before, some of them could be outfitted for other missions, too; with some simple barracks, you could transport LOTS of troops and support in there. An quick internal expansion of the main shuttlebay would give a place for dozens of fighters. And of course, for the extra weapons and stuff too. There's place for any of these possibilities in the big fleet battles we saw, which involved needing to get to, capture, and then hold a strategic location.

Mark

Well, Yar mentioned in "Yesterday's Enterprise" that that version of the Enterprise was capable of transporting 6000 troops, so despite being in an alternate timeline the possibility probably exists, so I'm sure the Dominion War variants were outfitted in much the same way...or at least could have been...
 
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
I have a feeling the tech manual probably bears that out. And thinking about it, if they can get over 1000 people on with those big, spacious rooms, then surely they could get a hell of a lot more on if people bunked up.

Galaxy - saucer = headless chicken (says Mr Farraund, anyway).
 
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dat:
That and we could have seen the separated saucer as well, both in combat but acting independently of each other. You get to have additional ships to fight with.

Brilliant idea. Because the one thing you want in combat is a ship that needs 5 minutes preperation before it can go to warp.
 
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
Never underestimate the number of people you can cram into a starship. The average aircraft carrier is a mere 300m long and 40m tall, no? One of those has 5000-6000 crew under NORMAL conditions. A GCS can swallow at least a couple of these!

Mark
 
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
 
it makes the 1701's 430 seem more reasonable.. and Voyager's 150 seem downright sparse.. they musta had big closets..
 
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
NX-01 shares this density - I've always wondered, with only 87 people aboard (most in twin bunks), there wasn't any space for VIP quarters. At least with the refit, they seem to have rearranged things to fit in barracks for the MACOs (how many remains to be seen), a brig, ops room, and space for photon(ic) torpedoes.

Mark
 
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by CaptainMike20X6:
it makes the 1701's 430 seem more reasonable.. and Voyager's 150 seem downright sparse.. they musta had big closets..

I can't imagine what Voyager does with all of its Volume. They certainly must not have it invested in crew quarters. That one episode, "Prophecy"..where they take on 300 Klingons and up their compliment comparable to that of the 1701 (450ish) and had the quarters 'doubled-up' and still had the cargo bays crammed full of Klingons.
 
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
 
I'm guessing it's a combination of Coffee Storerooms and DIY Shuttle Kits. [Smile]
 
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Voyager may not hve been completed up to the specifications of later Intrepid class ships either:
We know, for instance, that there was no Aeroshuttle installed.
Voyager's mission should have been quick and easy: she embarked with a new crew, new captain and new starship design into unknown territory on a mission that ws likely more a chance to shakedown the crew and ship than to really solve the ongoing Maquis problem.
I think that Voyager was only partially equiped and had a lot of interior space left unfinished.
Plus double-bunking the junior members may have served a morale issue (lonliness) and have given Ensign Sudor more of a challenge. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
Well, two weeks later, I think I may have finally put a face on this topic rather than a topic based solely on a hazy recollection. [Wink]

Check it out.

I did my best to get a 'pan' of the bridge between the jolts and flashs...picture #5 appears to be the ops officer/post.
 
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Sure looks like a main bridge (and NOT a battle bridge) to me. [Wink]
 
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
Well it is at least almost a 3/4 bridge and it seems they went as far as an ops officer despite a split second of camera time. Otherwise the whole, wrap-around ramp with the 'tactical rail' is very Galaxy main-bridge. The only major differences I see is 1.) that there is that door that appears to be midway between where the ready room and the turbo lift would be, 2.)the far-left-back of the bridge seems deeper, and is all 'stand up' computers in the back, and evidently not the 'sit down' consols along the back, 3.)the captains chair seems to be more foreward than the first officers chair.
 
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
I actually think of those as improvments to the Enterprise bridge.
 
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix:
I'm guessing it's a combination of Coffee Storerooms and DIY Shuttle Kits. [Smile]

 -
the old standby
 
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
...but I thought Voyager had 45 shuttles. [Confused]
 
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
 
I challenge our resident bridge expert to draw up a plan for this bridge... *pokes Mark* [Wink]
 
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Screamin' funny! [Big Grin]

So....you can make me a MSD?
I'll buy you a pony....
 
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
Great idea!
 
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Topher:
I challenge our resident bridge expert to draw up a plan for this bridge... *pokes Mark* [Wink]

I actually did that a few years back, though it didn't look so hot. So instead, I'll point you to the bridge of the Nebula-class Prometheus, the set's previous appearance. All you have to do is put another couple of stations where that grille is, with opaque bulkheads where the upper monitors would be. Swap out the port and starboard consoles for the big tactical rail, and STEPS (not ramps ) on the sides to get up and down. The aft doors are probably still there.

Remove the second step where the CO chair is, move it forward on an expanded first step up, and pop in two more slightly behind it. In my sketch, I put in a small situational table a la Defiant between the two chairs behind for them to work. The forward consoles and p/s exits remain the same.

See? Not terribly pretty, but it works.

Mark
 
Posted by Captain Serek (Member # 1038) on :
 
I second that challenge! [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
In addition to the uniforms, further proof that Starfleet is sizist - imagine trying to squeeze through that alleged turbolift door. . .
 
Posted by tnpir4002 (Member # 2175) on :
 
I'm kinda curious about this, I don't see any real shots of the Oddy bridge on Trekcore and the ZIP file references here appears to be a broken link; can someone re-upload it? I want to see what you're referring to with the talk of the forward stations here.
 
Posted by tnpir4002 (Member # 2175) on :
 
I'm kinda curious about this, I don't see any real shots of the Oddy bridge on Trekcore and the ZIP file references here appears to be a broken link; can someone re-upload it? I want to see what you're referring to with the talk of the forward stations here.
 
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Nguyen:
Never underestimate the number of people you can cram into a starship. The average aircraft carrier is a mere 300m long and 40m tall, no? One of those has 5000-6000 crew under NORMAL conditions. A GCS can swallow at least a couple of these!

Mark

I usually like to add to the myth. You know how people have said that Carriers are like cities at sea. They are...

only the city in question?

The Bronx. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
I read something where Probert had designed the E-D to hold 4,000 crew, but due to budgetary reasons and limited funds for background extras, Gene R. said the ship only had a crew of 1,000.
 
Posted by Mirror-Amasov (Member # 742) on :
 
Air date for "The Jem'Hadar" was 12 June (1994). Generations was shooting from 24 March - 9 June. I would imagine the brigde destruction was filmed last or near the end of the shoot. I'm too lazy to look up the exact shooting dates for the Jem'Hadar now, but the point is: why didn't they use that set?
 
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Shatner's hairpiece had gotten loose and no one dared approach it's chosen nesting ground- the bridge set.
Eventually they managed to restrain the creature, sadly it ate William Shatner's neck before the tranks took effect.
Look at those Priceline commercials if yuo dont believe me- his neck is just...gone.

His head is held onto his torso via stitches and double-stick tape.
 
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mirror-Amasov:
Air date for "The Jem'Hadar" was 12 June (1994). Generations was shooting from 24 March - 9 June. I would imagine the brigde destruction was filmed last or near the end of the shoot. I'm too lazy to look up the exact shooting dates for the Jem'Hadar now, but the point is: why didn't they use that set?

Probably because the air date of the TNG finale "All Good Things ..." was late May 1994, meaning "The Jem'Hadar" was shooting concurrently or near-concurrently to the TNG finale, and so far as I know they pretty much went rip-roaring right to the movie stuff after that.

Perhaps on some idle week when TNG had a heavy location show they could've used the bridge set extensively and maybe even done the same sort of pyrotechnics the Odyssey bridge received, but TNG's bridge-heavy (and even modified-bridge-heavy) finale? I'm guessing not.
 
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
Chances are then that the Odyssey's scenes were filmed on the Generations bridge but in close-up to either conceal Saucer-crash damage or to keep secret the Generations bridge mods (extra consoles etc.).
 
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
 
But it was not and what we saw indicates they used the swing bridge set previously dressed as the Nebbie class Prometheus bridge.
 
Posted by Captain Serek (Member # 1038) on :
 
They used the battle bridge, the same set that was used for Sisko's Saratoga in the pilot episode.
 
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
 
Which was later dressed as the Prometheus bridge.
 


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