I had a two hour phone chat with Andy Probert tonight, and while a lot of it was consumed with personal chitchat and a project he's going to help me on, I did remember to ask him some questions about the TMP ship. Here's some of what he told me:
1. Most of the little squares around the perimeter of top of the saucer section were intended to be inspection hatches, not lifeboats.
2. The lifeboat seen in the cargo deck was one of many that he intended to be along both sides of the engineering hull. He said he wanted there to be rows of hatch markings down either side, but that was nixed.
3. The botantical deck windows origjnated because he and Richard Taylor were picturing the ship like a majestic ocean liner, and one key feature of such ships are large windows in the dining rooms. The windows ended up where they are because it was one of the few places on the not hull already spoken for. A miniature room was built, but scrapped when someone go the idea that if people saw a room through the windows, they'd want to go into it. Later the trees were put in.
3. Some preproduction drawings of the ship featire red pinstriping (some of which ended up being copied onto the Reliant), and he says that a whole set of red pinstripe decals were produced for the model, and were intended to be the final touch on the model. They were to go around the edge of the saucer and outline the manuevering thrusters, and outline those bluish areas on the edges of the dorsal and pylons, around the grills on the front of the nacelles, and then along the tops of the nacelles, etc. He said a set of the decals were tested and looked great, then peeled off when the painters went to work doing the pearlescent paintjob. Afterwards, some of them convinced Trumbull not to use the pinstripes, so they were left off.
4. Andy said he hated the original bubble-like superstructure and the lower dome of the saucer that he carried over from the Joe Jennings plans for the Phase II ship, and jumped on the chance to redesign those then Trumbull wanted to add the external spotlights.
5. On the ST:TMP Blueprints, the reason the docking port on the secondary hull is lebeled "engineering" because it's the main docking port of the engineering hull, so it's not a mislabel.
6. In the same blueprint set, the klingon ship has "bolognium engine shields" as a joke about "bologne", because kids have a lot of energy from bologne sandwiches. Now we know the secret of Klingon strength!
So there you go.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Goo!
Mark
Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
Does that mean that Voyager ran on Starbucks then?
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron: I had a two hour phone chat with Andy Probert tonight, and while a lot of it was consumed with personal chitchat and a project he's going to help me on, I did remember to ask him some questions about the TMP ship. Here's some of what he told me:
Kewelness! You DaMan!
quote:1. Most of the little squares around the perimeter of top of the saucer section were intended to be inspection hatches, not lifeboats.
Which goes along w/what I recall reading or hearing somewhere: that the three outer most set of hatches are personnel hatches as labeled on the Kimball TMP prints and the inner is inspection hatches. I don't really like the idea of them serving that purpose, but if that was the original intent....
quote:2. The lifeboat seen in the cargo deck was one of many that he intended to be along both sides of the engineering hull. He said he wanted there to be rows of hatch markings down either side, but that was nixed.
Hmmm... I think I'm glad the secondary hull wasn't "littered" like that. Of course, I've also had the relatively spartan exterior growing on me for nearly a quarter of a century, so that's prolly why.
quote:3. The botantical deck windows origjnated because he and Richard Taylor were picturing the ship like a majestic ocean liner, and one key feature of such ships are large windows in the dining rooms. The windows ended up where they are because it was one of the few places on the not hull already spoken for. A miniature room was built, but scrapped when someone go the idea that if people saw a room through the windows, they'd want to go into it. Later the trees were put in.
This is another that I'm glad was changed. I actually like the idea of the botanical gardens as opposed to the dining room.
quote:3. Some preproduction drawings of the ship featire red pinstriping (some of which ended up being copied onto the Reliant), and he says that a whole set of red pinstripe decals were produced for the model, and were intended to be the final touch on the model. They were to go around the edge of the saucer and outline the manuevering thrusters, and outline those bluish areas on the edges of the dorsal and pylons, around the grills on the front of the nacelles, and then along the tops of the nacelles, etc. He said a set of the decals were tested and looked great, then peeled off when the painters went to work doing the pearlescent paintjob. Afterwards, some of them convinced Trumbull not to use the pinstripes, so they were left off.
While I think a few more of the warning strips used sparingly would have looked good, what it sounds like was proposed would have been rather garish. "Less is more" and all that.
quote:4. Andy said he hated the original bubble-like superstructure and the lower dome of the saucer that he carried over from the Joe Jennings plans for the Phase II ship, and jumped on the chance to redesign those then Trumbull wanted to add the external spotlights.
Glad this change was made, then. While I like the Phase II arrangement for these areas, I think that the "current" arrangement looks more as if it were advancements from TOS.
quote:5. On the ST:TMP Blueprints, the reason the docking port on the secondary hull is lebeled "engineering" because it's the main docking port of the engineering hull, so it's not a mislabel.
Kewel.
quote:6. In the same blueprint set, the klingon ship has "bolognium engine shields" as a joke about "bologne", because kids have a lot of energy from bologne sandwiches. Now we know the secret of Klingon strength!
I thought it was a combination of body order and them not cutting their hair....
quote:So there you go.
Thanks again. Appreciate your taking the time to ask those questions, as well as share your findings with us! Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
You didn't ask him about the TMP comm chatter by any chance, did you?
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
Nearly Moses from the Sinai.
Neat.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spike: You didn't ask him about the TMP comm chatter by any chance, did you?
Not this time...I asked him a long time ago but he didn't know where it was. I know he wrote several versions and Trumbull picked the shortest one where Andy slipped his own name in.
Posted by Triton (Member # 1043) on :
That would explain the red pin striping in Rick Sternbach's painting of the refit Enterprise in Goldstein's Star Trek: Space Flight Chronology. I always wondered why he added that decorative touch, now I understand why.
Thanks for the information Mr. Neutron.
PS--
Were you ever able to locate the "Planet of Titans" script?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
^ Yeah, there is ZERO on the net regarding that topic. In fact I think Google lead me back to Flare during my search! There was a little info on www.sciflicks.com under 'ST:TMP facts' but nothing new or enlightening that wasn't in the Phase II book. The only thing I can figure is to either find a way to get ahold of Chris Bryant, Allan Scott, or Philip Kaufman, OR invent a time machine...
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Triton: Were you ever able to locate the "Planet of Titans" script?
Nope...but I didn't pursue it too far. I might go after it this fall for a project I want to do...but it'll mean making calls around Hollywood with my few contacts there and seeing if there's only Six Degrees of Separation between me and the script!
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
How I envy you...
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
Neatest Flare Member, hands down.
Video Games! Hollywood!
You are what I want to be when I grow up.
Posted by Triton (Member # 1043) on :
Thank you very much for the personal response Mr. Neutron.
I just return from your Web site, it makes very interesting reading about the realities of developing software for a "property". Thanks for sharing this information on the web.
Also, I would like to extend best wishes to you and Mr. Probert on your project.
Posted by Jim NCC1701A (Member # 1021) on :
Any idea if AP is ever going to put together a book or add a page to his website with his obscure Star Trek designs?
Knowing that he's got a design on paper for the Yorktown and not being able to see it is damn frustrating.
File that fan flick in the same catagory as the Titans script - we know about it, we know someone must have some information about it, we just don't know who they are and how we can bring said info into the light of day.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ultra Magnus: Neatest Flare Member, hands down.
Video Games! Hollywood!
You are what I want to be when I grow up.
Hahaha...I thought everyone here wanted to be Mojo!
I've been lucky enough to meet and or speak with a number of people involved in Treks of various sorts, being friends with Andy, having written one of (if not the first) first interviews with Ronald D. Moore (for the official ST:TNG Magazine back in 1989), having gotten a personal tour of the TNG art dept. by Mike Okuda, and having talked Rick Sternbach into coughing up actual DS9 production blueprints for the team doing the Sega DS9 game. I also had a really nice phone chat with Greg Jein back around 1996 or something where he told me of evil plans he had to slip one of his Flesh Gordon Flying Phalluses into a spaceship graveyeard scene in Trek (I suggested it be the USS John Thomas). I even had a long chat with Ron Roman, originator of what became the TNG episode, "Booby Trap", and heard his take on what he'd written and how it differed from the final episode.
As to Andy's stuff, as I said elsewhere, I'm talking to him about really grilling him over a series of conversations and emails to make a massive �ber interview in which we'd discuss all the stuff that gets left out of the typical interviews (that always ask the same ten questions). For instance, last night I asked him things like how he survived the transition from the Able group to Trumbull's, what he thought of Richard Taylor and Co.'s unused V'ger designs, who created the animated graphics created for TMP but not used until TWOK, and stuff like that. (Yes, I have answers to those, but I'm not tellin yet haha!) When I'm really ready to do this with him, I'll solicit additional questions from guys here to pose...but don't hold your breath...might not happen right away!
What I hope to do at some point is go over to his place and kinda go through all his stuff with him (this could take forever!) and see what was designed and not used that we're not aware of, or the stuff that was designed and built but never seen in detail (last night be told me he even created the warning labeling around the personnel hatch on top of the TMP ship and told me some of what it said).
Sorry, that went on a bit!
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Oh, and as to the TMP ship's missing red pinstriping...just look at the cover of Shane's Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise...there it is! Not obtrusive or gaudy at all.
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron:
quote:Originally posted by Ultra Magnus: Neatest Flare Member, hands down.
Video Games! Hollywood!
You are what I want to be when I grow up.
Hahaha...I thought everyone here wanted to be Mojo!
I've been lucky enough to meet and or speak with a number of people involved in Treks of various sorts, being friends with Andy, having written one of (if not the first) first interviews with Ronald D. Moore (for the official ST:TNG Magazine back in 1989), having gotten a personal tour of the TNG art dept. by Mike Okuda, and having talked Rick Sternbach into coughing up actual DS9 production blueprints for the team doing the Sega DS9 game. I also had a really nice phone chat with Greg Jein back around 1996 or something where he told me of evil plans he had to slip one of his Flesh Gordon Flying Phalluses into a spaceship graveyeard scene in Trek (I suggested it be the USS John Thomas). I even had a long chat with Ron Roman, originator of what became the TNG episode, "Booby Trap", and heard his take on what he'd written and how it differed from the final episode.
As to Andy's stuff, as I said elsewhere, I'm talking to him about really grilling him over a series of conversations and emails to make a massive �ber interview in which we'd discuss all the stuff that gets left out of the typical interviews (that always ask the same ten questions). For instance, last night I asked him things like how he survived the transition from the Able group to Trumbull's, what he thought of Richard Taylor and Co.'s unused V'ger designs, who created the animated graphics created for TMP but not used until TWOK, and stuff like that. (Yes, I have answers to those, but I'm not tellin yet haha!) When I'm really ready to do this with him, I'll solicit additional questions from guys here to pose...but don't hold your breath...might not happen right away!
What I hope to do at some point is go over to his place and kinda go through all his stuff with him (this could take forever!) and see what was designed and not used that we're not aware of, or the stuff that was designed and built but never seen in detail (last night be told me he even created the warning labeling around the personnel hatch on top of the TMP ship and told me some of what it said).
Sorry, that went on a bit!
Sounds a bit more than an uberinterview... more like a book, which I wouldn't mind one bit at all.
M.
Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
If you go look through Andy Probert's garage MrNeutron, don't forget I live in the Los Angeles area and is willing to give a hand...
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge: If you go look through Andy Probert's garage MrNeutron, don't forget I live in the Los Angeles area and is willing to give a hand...
Great, except that he doesn't live anywhere near you! Posted by Triton (Member # 1043) on :
If I remember the painting in Star Trek: Spaceflight Chronology, the red striping was very flattering to the design. When I first saw this painting in the book in 1979, I didn't like it much because at the time I was a purist and wanted to see an accurate rendering of the model. Alas, I gave the book to a friend during a move so I cannot scan the image to share it with you all . An instance of temporary insanity during a time in my life when I was living in a small place and was tired of triping over boxes of stuff and was about ready to take it all to a dumpster.
Mr. Neutron, thank your for sharing some of your experiences, especiallly the conversation with Greg Jein and the possible appearance of the Flesh Gordon model.
I know I am pretty envious because you have been in the palaces of the mighty. Being "Mojo", or being one of his drinking buddies, wouldn't be bad either.
If you have any other stories or experiences to share, I would very much be interested in hearing them. I also look forward to seeing your uber-interview with Andrew. Please let us know which publication it will be appearing in.
Out of curiousity, I would like to ask how much can artists or people involved in a "work for hire" project reveal to others after the project is completed? For example, if Andrew Probert were to share some previously unpublished art work on the Internet with us, would he get a nasty letter from the legal department at Paramount? Does Paramount still consider it to be its property even though over 24 years have passed? I imagine this would be something that was outlined in the employment contract before the artists or technicians are hired.
It was a time in my life when I was triping over boxes of stuff.
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron: Oh, and as to the TMP ship's missing red pinstriping...just look at the cover of Shane's Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise...there it is! Not obtrusive or gaudy at all.
Only red pin-striping I can obviously see is around the RCS thrusters and the dual pin-striping around the lower portion of the primary hull, level w/the lower phaser emplacements. Looks like there might be some pin-striping along the inside of the nacelles, but if that's what it's meant to be, it's not at all obvious in that view.
However, you had mentioned it being in more places in that, such as around the edge of the bussard collector fronts, along the edge of the primary hull, leading edge of the connecting dorsal, etc... It isn't present in the MSG cover art.
Personally, I think the strip around the lower primary that's even w/the phaser emplacements is a bit gaudy. Just doesn't look right - and I've thought that for years. I'm glad that and the "warning stripes" around the bussard collector's didn't make it onto the studio model. I think she looks fine as she is right now.
Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :
Well, I�ve scanned in every image from Spaceflight chronology, so here�s the Constitution Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
The red pinstriping is also visible in the picture of the model on page 158 of "The Art Of Star Trek". You can see it around the flux chillers on the nacelles, on the saucer rim, and (just barely) on the saucer at the level of the phaser banks. It isn't all that obvious, and would have been even less so under the lighting used for TMP.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Starship Freak: Well, I�ve scanned in every image from Spaceflight chronology, so here�s the Constitution
Ugh. Awful rendering. Lots of incorrect details.
Posted by TheYoshinator (Member # 1066) on :
Star Trek The Magazine... I think its the December '01 Issue. It has the original Richard Taylor schematics that David Kimble used to make the Blueprints for TMP.
This pic shows the placements of those dropped pinstripes.
Also there's a pic in Enterprise Incidents Issue 05 '84 of the Enterprise being refitted. Some of the stripping has yet to be removed on the saucer rim.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Triton: I also look forward to seeing your uber-interview with Andrew.
Your going to interview me!?! Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
quote:Originally posted by Woodside Kid: The red pinstriping is also visible in the picture of the model on page 158 of "The Art Of Star Trek". You can see it around the flux chillers on the nacelles, on the saucer rim, and (just barely) on the saucer at the level of the phaser banks. It isn't all that obvious, and would have been even less so under the lighting used for TMP.
That's the PhaseII Enterprise, BTW. You can tell by the Bridge, B/C deck and shuttlebay doors.
Interesting that I never noticed that before. Good eyes! I think you'd likely pick up on those pinstripes more if the lighting were at standard levels, tho.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffworks: That's the PhaseII Enterprise, BTW. You can tell by the Bridge, B/C deck and shuttlebay doors.
Sorry, no, it IS the (Magicam-built) TMP ship. The giveaways are: --The nacelles are Richard Taylor's art-deco-ish design (more complex overlapping curves than on the Phase II model) --The hangar deck is TMP shape (Phase II's was TOS shape) --The Impulse engine is Andy Probert's design (Phase II model had TOS type) --Rec Deck Windows --Proportion of saucer (larger on TMP ship) --The Officer's Lounge windows were Andy Probert's concept and didn't exist on the Phase II model --The TMP Aztec panel paint job
As to the superstructure, remember, the ship was built first with a Phase II-ish superstructure (Bridge and top decks), which Andy Probert then redesigned when they decided to make the ship self lit.
(I asked Andy about the Phase II model and he said he'd never seen it in person, just photos.)
Looking at that pic, though, I have to say I'm in the pro-pinstripe camp.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Triton: Out of curiousity, I would like to ask how much can artists or people involved in a "work for hire" project reveal to others after the project is completed? For example, if Andrew Probert were to share some previously unpublished art work on the Internet with us, would he get a nasty letter from the legal department at Paramount? Does Paramount still consider it to be its property even though over 24 years have passed? I imagine this would be something that was outlined in the employment contract before the artists or technicians are hired.
Well, the line gets crossed if you amass too much material in one place for pay. For instance, Andy could put togther a book for his work, but if it was mostly Star Trek stuff it could be seen as infringing on Paramount's rights. It's kind of a gray area. If it had equal amounts from many different films, no one would bat an eye (see Syd Mead's many sketchbooks).
Releasing stuff like that into the public domain is probably less of an issue.
Posted by Triton (Member # 1043) on :
Thanks Mr. Neutron for your response. I thought that you would be a good person to ask because you have had personal experience with the legal department at Paramount. I guess its always a question of how likely are they going to sue and if they think that you are depriving the Pocket Books division of revenue.
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron: [QUOTE]Sorry, no, it IS the (Magicam-built) TMP ship. The giveaways are: --The nacelles are Richard Taylor's art-deco-ish design (more complex overlapping curves than on the Phase II model) --The hangar deck is TMP shape (Phase II's was TOS shape) --The Impulse engine is Andy Probert's design (Phase II model had TOS type) --Rec Deck Windows --Proportion of saucer (larger on TMP ship) --The Officer's Lounge windows were Andy Probert's concept and didn't exist on the Phase II model --The TMP Aztec panel paint job
As to the superstructure, remember, the ship was built first with a Phase II-ish superstructure (Bridge and top decks), which Andy Probert then redesigned when they decided to make the ship self lit.
(I asked Andy about the Phase II model and he said he'd never seen it in person, just photos.)
Looking at that pic, though, I have to say I'm in the pro-pinstripe camp.
OK So, I mis-spoke exactly what I was meaning, but you still know what I meant. It's definitely NOT the TMP Enterprise, as the hangar doors are not detailed exactly as we see them in ST:TMP and beyond. Also, the Bridge and B/C deck are pre-TMP.
Thus, it is not the TMP Enterprise, but the predecessor in the design phase.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffworks: OK So, I mis-spoke exactly what I was meaning, but you still know what I meant. It's definitely NOT the TMP Enterprise, as the hangar doors are not detailed exactly as we see them in ST:TMP and beyond. Also, the Bridge and B/C deck are pre-TMP.
Thus, it is not the TMP Enterprise, but the predecessor in the design phase.
Yeah, it's close but not quite.
I disagree about the hangar deck, tho. I think it's the same as the final version...but it's lit from below so the shadow of the fantail is partially obscuring the doors.
Posted by TheYoshinator (Member # 1066) on :
I agree, the fan-tail hatch is the same as final, as far as I can tell.
One thing I've always wondered was... when I looked at this version of the Enterprise as it is in THAT pic.
If they actually softened the edges of the saucer after this. I mean I wonder if they increased the radius of the rounding of the edges. This version always seemed to 'feel' sharper there. More like the TOS Enterprise's. Also look at the edges at the back of the connecting dorsal. Those too also seem much sharper, but I can't tell if It's an illusion from the back-lighting.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheYoshinator: One thing I've always wondered was... when I looked at this version of the Enterprise as it is in THAT pic.
If they actually softened the edges of the saucer after this. I mean I wonder if they increased the radius of the rounding of the edges. This version always seemed to 'feel' sharper there. More like the TOS Enterprise's. Also look at the edges at the back of the connecting dorsal. Those too also seem much sharper, but I can't tell if It's an illusion from the back-lighting.
Andy told me he enlarged the saucer right off, so Magicam built it at that size, and that was it. They changed the superstructure and lower dome, but that's all. The edges didn't change. I suspect the fantail is the same.
Posted by Jim NCC1701A (Member # 1021) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheYoshinator: If they actually softened the edges of the saucer after this. I mean I wonder if they increased the radius of the rounding of the edges. This version always seemed to 'feel' sharper there. More like the TOS Enterprise's. Also look at the edges at the back of the connecting dorsal. Those too also seem much sharper, but I can't tell if It's an illusion from the back-lighting.
The B&W pics on Phil Broad's Cloudster.com site have the same sharper look - I think it must have something to do with the B&W photography. Also, the model probably had a lot less coats of paint than it did by the time TUC rolled around. All that paint build-up probably added another couple of mm to the model Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
Sorry, burning question of the moment alert:
Has he ever mentioned anything about the 'control room' above the hanger doors? On the refit model, it's just a bulge with painted-on windows, that glow red. Was taht a detail that got half-finished or is it actually supposed to be a control room? I realize that what we saw in ST: V is irrelevant, but the new hanger set didn't leave room for, or use, a control room above the bay doors.
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
I've always wondered that myself, tho I disagree that they're just "painted-on" windows. They appear to be well-flushed windows in most of the pics I've seen, and that includes the B & W pics at the StarshipBuilder site.
Anyhow, I believe the original intent was for it to be the primary hangar control room. I was under the impression that one or more controllers would be able to view out thru either the outside set of windows or an internal set of windows just over the bay doors that would look forward into the hangar bay. I drew this conclusion from the various pics/screen caps from TMP that appear on your site, Woozle, as well as some few other pics I've seen along those lines.
Technically, there's no reason why there couldn't be two hangar bay control rooms, tho it would be a waste of personnel, IMO. You could have the one that handles all approach control aspects and would hand-off to the interior control room from ST:V, which would handle actual landing & taxiing operations. That scene in ST:V certainly didn't show anyone in the outer control room windows, tho that doesn't mean someone wasn't there. It's also possible that there are automated systems in place that don't actually require anyone in the outer control room, but standard procedure - when the ships not on a skeleton crew - calls for someone to be there to at least monitor in the event of systems failures.
Just my thinking on it all.
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
I think I'm going to spin-off a new thread, so the ANDY thread doesn't get to off track.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
An instance of temporary insanity during a time in my life when I was living in a small place and was tired of triping over boxes of stuff and was about ready to take it all to a dumpster.![[Wink]](wink.gif)