Whoa. I was watching "Tears of the Prophets"[DS9-6] when I noticed something I've never heard anyone mention before. It appears to be a Cardassian runabout.
In the pics below, note the vessel in the bay. If the upper structure is the mushroom head, the bay is in the "stalk". You'll see two bays and two sulfur-colored Cardassian runabouts, the first of which explodes along with the rest of the station around it.
Runabout is probably not the right name, more like a cargo shuttle by the looks of it. Well spotted though!
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
Interesting find, indeed. How come it hasn't been mentioned by any of the designers?
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Could indeed be a cargo shuttle of some sort. I just picked the name runabout to avoid confusion and give a sense of the vessel's size, which seems on par with the Federation Danubes and the Romulan "shuttle" runabout that Senator Vreenak rode around in. The Cardassian "shuttle" we've seen was, if memory serves, a downscaled Hideki.
It's got an awfully big ass, in any event, with a cockpit window, what appears to be warp nacelles (since the big ass would preclude their use as impulse thrusters), and so on. It is approximately two stories tall, judging by the window rows nearby. The blockiness is reminscent of the Galor destroyers.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Looks like the Mystery Machine... welp that's the end of those "meddling kids". Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"How come it hasn't been mentioned by any of the designers?"
Given how small and insignificant it is, I'd be surprised if it's much more than a few boxes with a hastily sketched texture applied. Why put any detail into it, if it's going to take years before anyone even realizes it was there?
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
A) There are definately two separate vessels, however, are they of two different designs? see image 2 and 5 for reference.
B) Is this the physical model of DS9 or the CGI? Or does it not matter...
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Uh...that is most certainly not DS9...
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
I don't see the indication of two separate vessel types.
And, to make J's comment not-totally-weird, there are standard Cardassian-station deflector doohickeys visible above the first visible docking bay. But, for some odd reason, they're pointed downward.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: Uh...that is most certainly not DS9...
Obviously not, but I noticed (and applaud!) the use of the DS9 type shield generator. They really went out of their way to give the Cardasians a unique style.
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
That's something I like especially with DS9. They really put some thought into the series. Compare that with say Voyager... Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Ok, sorry, I was lost for a moment. It's not DS9.
However, I still think there are two separate vessels, there... I'm just not certain if there are two different designs.
1 & 2 show the same bay, and 3 shows the camera angle widen or panning, by 4 the first bay has exploded and the second bay is coming into view. So there are two vessels.
Now are they of different designs? Image 1 2 & 3 show the first ship. And it seems to be uniform on the top, IE level. Image 4 and 5 show what might not even be a ship at all in the second bay. It looks like a smaller box infront of a larger one--- but I'm not convinced that it's just boxes, we've seen ships that look like two boxes in low res like this before.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
"Compare that with say Voyager..."
An odd comment, considering that Voyager was home to the apparently fan-favorite designer.
More than that, how does that sort of thing actually affect a show's "quality?" "Boy, those new Borg ships sure look strange and Borg-like. Voyager is great!" It just doesn't follow. There are plenty of reasons not to like Voyager (though I seem to not like it a bit less than others), but this just isn't one of them. Perhaps I'm overly sensitive.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I just *adore* this kind of attention to utterly insignificant detail! These VFX people must be insane! In a very nice way, of course.
I wonder if these designs could be what was operating out of the runabout bays of DS9 while it still was Terok Nor? They'd be tighter fits than the Federation craft, but not too large if we go by the general scale and ignore the close-ups of runabouts sitting on the elevator surfaces on the station exterior...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: I just *adore* this kind of attention to utterly insignificant detail! These VFX people must be insane! In a very nice way, of course.
I wonder if these designs could be what was operating out of the runabout bays of DS9 while it still was Terok Nor? They'd be tighter fits than the Federation craft, but not too large if we go by the general scale and ignore the close-ups of runabouts sitting on the elevator surfaces on the station exterior...
That was my thought as well. After all, Empok Nor also had landing pads, IIRC.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
According to the DS9 Tech manual, the Nor Type stations also have Cardassian escape pods, some of which were replaced with Starfleet pods on DS9. And depending on which source you believe, the Danubes were specifically constructed for assignment on DS9 and built to fit in the existing landing bays.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Hmmm...I'd imagine that the Terok Nor "cardassabouts" would have been mostly used for ore transport or mabye shuttling VIP's to Bajor.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
No... the ore would have been transported by freighters and would have been off-loaded at one of the six docking arms. Each of these arms is where the ore processing centers are. And then the refined ore would be transferred off the station in the same way.
I think the most likely use of the cardassabouts [good name] is that they are what the Cardassians used to transport small groups of Bajorans to the station as workers.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Hmmm...consulting the DS9TM, you're right about the docking arms. I cant imagine the cardassabouts being used as prisoner transport though (unless the ships are not warp capable) as it presents an obvious prisoner escape risk. Prisoners should be moved via larger vessels so there's no chance of them taking over the ship.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Um... Are we that sure that they aren't just shuttles?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Nonsense! Everything Cardassian is something special: only the Federation would have boring ol' "shuttles". Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by Guardian 2000: After all, Empok Nor also had landing pads, IIRC.
I was correct. They are mentioned as being sealed in "Empok Nor"[DS9-5], hence the runabout's docking at the upper pylon.
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
quote:Originally posted by J: I think the most likely use of the cardassabouts [good name] is that they are what the Cardassians used to transport small groups of Bajorans to the station as workers.
Maybe what we see in the screen cap is the kind of ship the Ravinok was!? It was a prisoner transport we know, and we did see Runabout parts sticking out of the sand...
Cardassabouts indeed...
Posted by Hunter (Member # 611) on :
Didn't Gul Dukat mention something about a small craft equal to a Federation Runabout in Maquis part 2? I think he called it an interceptor? Could that be one of them?
Posted by Apostle (Member # 1267) on :
Actually, Gul Dukat said that the Cardassian Runabouts (can't remember what word he used) were years ahead of the Danube class
Good thing we know he's a dirty, lying whore.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Looking at the Ravinok again, I don't think any Danube set parts were really used in making the partial exterior. Sure, there's that ribbed vertical "belt" and the kinked wall section, but those are out of scale with anything Danube-related. I guess it's just another example of Cardies imitating Federation design solutions, like the Hideki bow section vs. Defiant bow section... In any case, the Ravinok looks "aerodynamic" somehow, and would have to be, since the prisoners survived the crash. It's a rather small design in any case, and appears only one deck high at the breached section where Kira enters. No, I don't think it's the same as those "Tears" craft.
Further negativity: on Terok Nor, I doubt there would have been a need for prisoner transports, since the station was within transporter range of the surface of Bajor originally. Since we saw Bajoran workers on the Promenade, which is rather far away from docking interfaces and such, it makes sense to assume they came and went using the Promenade transporter. Less trusted workers could have had transporter pads on the outer areas of the station.
The runabout pads could have been for defense craft or service and repair pods. More probably, since they were located in the supposed habitat section of the station, they would have been reserved for the errands of the station's Cardassian masters and permanent residents - much as they were later used by the Feds.
The DS9 TM doesn't really suggest the Danubes were built for Terok Nor, IIRC. Instead, it claims Terok Nor was modified to accept the Danubes - that is, Starfleet built the runabout pads. Which makes no sense, since those pads were there in all the alt-universe and flashback versions of the station, as well as on Empok Nor.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
For the record.
quote: GUL DUKAT Is that a ramscoop control or a deflector grid panel... ?
Sisko just gives him a look...
GUL DUKAT Just curious. (beat) It really doesn't matter. Cardassian pursuit vessels are years ahead of this design.
Of course he could be telling the truth since the Danubes are primarily for exploration, not police action, but then Cardassians have a different way of gauging superiority, one that usually makes them look the best at everything...or maybe it's just Dukat.
[ March 24, 2004, 01:55 AM: Message edited by: Reverend ]
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: Of course he could be telling the truth since the Danubes are primarily for exploration, not police action, but then Cardassians have a different way of gauging superiority, one that usually makes them look the best at everything...or maybe it's just Dukat.
He was probably referring to the decor. Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Yeah, you're right... it's been so long I forgot about DS9 being in orbit of Bajor.
However, I would like to point out that it would be better to use a smaller vessel that is not capable of warp, and crowds the prisoners within one cramped containment field than to have what you suggest. A larger vessel requires more personnel to keep eyes on the prisoners, if there is a problem it can be overlooked, a larger vessel is more likely to be warp capable, and finally a larger vessel to be efficient in it's use would have to carry hundreds of prisoners at a time--- DS9 would only need such a large shipment in the beginning or if a large number of prisoners currently on the station "expired" under Cardassian definition.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
A large vessel could have the prisoner bay with no point of egress to the rest of the ship: One way in or out for the prisoners and if they want to escape, there's the external airlock. Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
The same could be true of a smaller shuttle sized craft where the command section is isolated from the holding section. Imagine a Danube with a bulkhead blocking where the door to the connecting walkway used to be.
Regarding the Ravinok, it might be worth noting that there were eighteen crewmembers and thirty-two prisoners onboard, plus the two extra passengers. So we know that it could carry at least fifty two people, I think that rules out this 'new' shuttle design as being the same as the Ravinok, unless of course it's allot bigger than it appears, but I doubt it. I think it's more likely to have been something the size of the Bok'Nor, a midsized freighter or transport.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I agree that the shuttle's too small to have been the same type as the ill-fated Ravinok. (based on the DS9 style shield generator in the pic)
Rev, you ever think of making a travel pod or workbee attachment for the Danube? That aft piece is supposed to be a replacable module after all. Might be cool to have a workbee type pod(s) that the Danube could transport between shipyards or as emergency repair tenders.
Just thinking aloud. Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
The shuttle is almost two stories tall judging by the facility windows. Total height of the forward section, assuming 2.5 meter decks at the facility (i.e. only 8.2 feet), is on the order of 4.5 meters. I would estimate vehicle length to be no less than 15 meters, probably more like 20-25. Habitable section width varies between ~4-5 meters in the front to ~6-7 meters in the larger rear box.
Assuming standard runabout/shuttle layout (i.e. surprisingly little space devoted to engineering in most cases), this is more than enough room to pack in 50 prisoners. Assuming the floorspace can be approximated as a 7(l) x 6.5(w) box connected to a 13(l) x 4.5(w) box, then that's 45.5 square meters + 58.5 square meters. Adding and rounding way down, that's still 100 square meters of room.
I wouldn't want to be a passenger on the thing, but that's enough space for 50 people to all lay down on the floor, albeit in a friendly way.
That said, however, I wouldn't think the Ravinok was a vessel of this type. Eighteen crewmembers is far too many.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
You know, it's really kinda moot to talk about this as if it would have been used for transport prisoners at all because when I was talking about it [at least me], I was thinking that the picture was of DS9. However, that isn't DS9, so that craft is obviously capable of performing something much more than just shuttling Bajorans to and from DS9.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
This station is one of the shipyards, right? So maybe it's a cargo shuttle for transporting non-replicatible items for use in the ships being built.
B.J.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
The station was part of the power complex that served the orbital defense platforms around Chin'toka. So we could even argue the craft or ship was a fighting vessel of some sort, since it operated out of a "fortress".
OTOH, it could be a construction vessel of some kind as well, since the defense network was only finished moments before the Fed/Klingon/Romulan axis attacked. Or a dormitory barge for construction crews. Or just about any type of craft, since Chin'toka appeared to be a major Cardassian conquest - perhaps on par with Bajor, perhaps even more important, as the Union did not withdraw from there. There would have been a *lot* of Cardassian activity there, of *all* kinds. Perhaps the craft were circus cars confiscated from a Cardie USO troupe?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Thread Resurrect!
Bernd . . . I saw the side view you have posted for this ship ("Shuttle type 2" here).
It dawned on me, though, looking at pic 1 that you also use and pic 5 from my original post that the ship rather strongly resembles the Baxial that Neelix had, though I think it might have nacelle-type things rather than the strap-on cargo containers. Alternately, it is also carrying cargo but of a different shape.
In any case, I'd go for more of the micro-Galactica look of the Baxial rather than the featureless travel pod look, though it does appear to have the Baxial's snub front nose rather than the Boslic ship's pointy front.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)