Can any one fill me in on the TNG mention of the introduction of phasers? Did it refer to hand-held units, ship-board units, or what? Also other than in Enterprise, has there been any other pre-TOS mention of phasers of beam weapons?
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I do remember Worf mentioning that phasers were introduced something like a hundred years previous. I think I read that in the Enterprise inconsistancies article at Ex Astris Scientia.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
He said there were no phasers in the 22nd century and according to memory alpha the earliest know use of them was in 2257 (the dikironium cloud creature incident.)
Aside from that there's the fact that in WNMHGB they had a phaser rifle but still only laser pistols tell me that the technology took a while to scale down, starting off as an exclusively ship mounted or ground based weapon before being scaled down to a rifle (probably with an intermediate step on the scale of an industrial drill) before finally getting to the hand held unit.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
The intermediate step was probably similar to the laser cannon from The Cage. Also, Masao, I know Enterprise's weapons are pretty much phasers visually, dramatically, for plot purposes, etc., but they don't actually call them phasers on the show; they call them "phase pistols" which is juuuuust different enough that we can at least take Worf as being correct and say 23rd century at the earliest.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Or you could say that the phase cannons were a failed intermediary step between lasers and phasers despite their constant use on Enterprise so that Starfleet decided to keep using lasers into the 23rd century until someone could design a more efficient phase-energy weapon.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I'd think that Starfleet initially mounted their ships with lasers, as they were a readily available tech in the early days of human space exploration, then developed plasma cannons, around the turn of the 22nd century, followed by phase cannons, which for some reason were found inefficient after the Romulan war, and by the founding of the Federation, more powerfull lasers had been created so they switched back to laser technology, leading to the phaser in Kirk's time.
However, phase cannons could be strictly Earth based technology, and perhaps when the Federation was founded the other members did not want their ships to be armed with them. Another race could have had a more advanced weapon technology, based on the laser, that was chosen to arm new federation Starfleet ships.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I wouldn't worry about factoring in anything from Enterprise in this thread. Masao ignores it, at least as far as the SF museum is concerned.
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
I checked the Memory Alpha article and the Encylopedia because starting this thread, but neither are clear about whehter Worf was referring to shipboard weapons or hand weapons. So, Rev, you believe he was referring to all phasers?
Can anyone put his line in context?
Enterprise and Enterprise? What is Enterprise.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
All he said was "No phasers."
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
In what context was that statement? We he discussing ship's weapons with someone?
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Rasmussen is in Ten-Forward, having accosted Worf, Riker, & Crusher at a tabel. From the script:
RIKER (after a long beat) How come there's no record of other future historians traveling back to witness "important events?"
RASMUSSEN We're obviously very careful. Matter of fact, a colleague and I recently paid a call on a twenty-second century vessel.
BEVERLY (fascinated) They hadn't even perfected quarantine fields by then. You must have seen surgical masks and gloves.
RASMUSSEN Isn't it fascinating how everyone has different interests when it comes to history... different perspectives on progress.
Rasmussen opens a small finger ring, looks inside, smiles, and closes it.
RIKER Mind if I ask what that is?
STAR TREK: "A Matter of Time" - 9/20/91 - ACT TWO 18.
17 CONTINUED: (3)
RASMUSSEN Just checking the time... No problem.
RIKER (getting a bit frustrated) Is something supposed to be happening here?
Rasmussen waves his hand, dismissing the question.
RASMUSSEN No, no, nothing. (changing the subject) What about you, Commander? What do you see as the most important example of progress over the last two hundred years?
RIKER (pauses) I suppose the warp coil. Before we had warp drive, Humans were confined to a single sector of the galaxy.
RASMUSSEN Spoken like the consummate explorer.
Rasmussen looks around the room, as if he were waiting for something to happen.
RIKER What's going on? You waiting for someone?
WORF (abruptly) Phasers!
Riker and Rasmussen turn to Worf.
RIKER Where?!
RASMUSSEN Beg your pardon?
WORF There were no phasers in the 22nd century.
Riker sighs and sits back.
STAR TREK: "A Matter of Time" - REV. 9/26/91 - ACT TWO 19.
17 CONTINUED: (4)
RASMUSSEN Ah, you see Doctor? Our Klingon friend is a perfect example of what I was trying to tell you. He views history through the eyes of a hunter, a warrior. His passion lies in the perfection of the tools of violence. How delightfully primitive.
Off Worf's reaction we:
CUT TO:
18 INT. ENGINEERING (OPTICAL)
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I don't spend a lot of time worrying about it, really. In the two pilots they were demonstrably making things up as they went along. You end up trying to tie together three facts that were created with no relevance to each other: the idea of "laser pistols" and a "phaser rifle" in 1965, the notion of "no phasers in the century preceding that the pilots are set in" in 1992, and the invention of a "phase pistol" in the aforementioned century in 2001.
The laser pistols are "set" using a rotating barrel with three sub-barrels, which is a pretty bizarre way of doing anything, whether it's a laser-beam or a phaser-beam (let's table the name they have for now, the name by which they were called needn't have been an exact description of their operation). Perhaps the "laser pistol" is in fact generating a phase beam which is being further "tuned" by crystals (or something) in each sub-barrel, which made people think of light and hence they were called lasers.
And another thing: Worf as expert historian? I know a lot about history (though obviously not as much as DT, odious unmissed little toerag that he is!) and I'd be hard-pressed to name the century firearms were first introduced. That whole scene reads as though Worf is trying to make a contribution to the discussion, and fluffs it.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Depends what you mean by "firearm." The Chinese had them long before anybody invited them in the West. And are you talking about cannons or hand held weapons? Hey, we're repeating the phaser discussion... Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Exactly!
(incidentally, I note that Robin Williams just appeared in, of all things, a Law'n'Order SVU episode. Why is this significant? Because he was their original choice to play Berlingoff Rassmussen, is a Trekkie, wanted to do it, but ultimately was "too busy." Of course, in those days the real reason was that no self-respecting film-star would ever do TV, not even if they'd got their original big break from it. Things are different now, TV is where it's at for the big roles, but all the same it makes me chuckle to see how far ol' Mork has fallen!)
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Or Worf could be reffering to the first part of the 22nd century, where thay had no phase pistols, or phasers.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I think it's safe to say that Pike's "lasers" aren't laser as we think of them today. More likely they were a form of Disruptor (probably Vulcan tech) that was later abandoned for the Phasers when Starfleet became more of a not-quite-pacifist-but-still-not-militant type of organisation as the Phaser was seen to be able to be used both offensively and defensively.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Vulcan or Andorian or Tellarite or even Human. I mean if we're ignoring Enterprise then we never saw that Vulcans were any more advanced than Earth at the signing of the charter (or any of the other founding races).
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Well, just by the simple logic that they were having nuclear war and interstellar migrations about 1000 years ago lends to the idea that they'd be quite a bit along, if a little stagnant. Then there's First Contact, of course.
As for the Andorians and Tellarites, we have no substancial info on them outside of Enterprise so anything is possible. I only said Vulcan because the Romulans are known to use Disruptors and it stands to reason that if there's one technology those two races will still have in common, it's weaponry.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
No, right, they were more advanced in 2063, but that doesn't guarantee they were more advanced by 2161. Maybe without Enterprise in the timeline they let humans advance much more rapidly. Hell, maybe even *with* Enterprise - after season 4 maybe the Vulcans trusted humans more and started handing over more tech, or maybe the Andorians or Tellarites did, or all three.
Point taken about the Romulans/Vulcans both using disruptor tech. It seems like disruptors and phasers are both part of the same basic tech, and are pretty much the only two alternatives in the field of particle weapons, and we know the Vulcans must not have used phasers or the Fed would have had them by Pike's time.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Well either way it's pure speculation. It's just more likely that the Vulcans (eventually) gave them disruptor technology than for Earth to do 1000 years of catching up in less than a century.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Perhaps, during the time of the TOS pilots, Starfleet was contracting their phaser production out to Lā-Zer, LLC, and that's why the officers called them that.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
That actually makes sense. You know, we never hear of product companies in Trek. I wonder why?
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Nationalization.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
After subcontractors sold weapons to both sides in WWIII, we learnt our lesson.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Well, I wasn't saying humanity would catch up on its own. As I thought I made clear I was saying perhaps Vulcan or one of the other three gave them the "laser" technology, instead of keeping humanity back technologically. We know they didn't at least in Enterprise canon but we're ignoring that.
Posted by shikaru808 (Member # 2080) on :
Kinda off topic, but I wonder why Starfleet doesn't utilize nuclear technology?
I mean, throw 4-5 nukes at a Borg cube you're at least gonna slow it down right?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Seriously?
Because fission explosions are a gnat's fart compared to antimatter ones. . .
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Photon torpedoes use matter/antimatter annihilations, shikaru. That means 100% conversion of matter to energy. In a nuclear explosion (here I'm assuming heavy hydrogen fusion) you might get 2% conversion. In other words, in M/AM, E=mc^2, whereas in fusion, E=0.02mc^2. For the same mass, the energy release is obviously a lot higher for photon torpedoes than for a nuclear warhead.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Although, Enterprise's original spatial torpedoes could have been nukes, or some advancement of nuclear technology. That may be why Malcom was all randy over the new photonic torpedoes.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Fusion is about as advanced as nuclear technology goes, I mean it is what makes stars go boom after all. As for the spatial torpedoes, I took them as being an early form of low yield subspace warhead. I mean they must have been used at some point by the Earth of the Federation before they were banned. Of course the reality is that the writers were just talking out of their collective arses again. They should have just called them torpedoes and be done with it. Either way this is a Masao thread, so again, just ignore Enterprise and everything within.
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: Either way this is a Masao thread, so again, just ignore Enterprise and everything within.
I think I will get a tatoo on my forehead to that effect, so that I won't have to keep explaining it to everyone I talk to.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
So whenever I want to bug you really badly all I have to do is say how cool Enterprise is?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
OK, so. Ignoring Enterprise makes things simpler, if not really clearer.
Worf says they didn't have phasers in the 22nd century. So they were invented sometime in or after 2200 (or 2201 if you want to be really Tim-like).
Then, it just comes down to whatever you think the Laser Pistols were - or represented - in their three appearances. They didn't look or act like lasers, so maybe they weren't and it was just a name given to them, maybe they were really phasers (or phaser-ish) in which case you can say "phasers were introduced sometime between 2200 (or 2201) and 2255."
Or maybe they were lasers (or laser-ish) and therefore phasers were new in TOS proper, first appearing in bulky rifle form only around 2265. So you can say "phasers were introduced in 2260 (plus or minus 5 years)."
End of story. Take us out of orbit, Mr. Su- wait, aren't you a botanist?
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: Fusion is about as advanced as nuclear technology goes, I mean it is what makes stars go boom after all. As for the spatial torpedoes, I took them as being an early form of low yield subspace warhead. I mean they must have been used at some point by the Earth of the Federation before they were banned. Of course the reality is that the writers were just talking out of their collective arses again. They should have just called them torpedoes and be done with it. Either way this is a Masao thread, so again, just ignore Enterprise and everything within.
I assumed that they were called spatial torpedoes because at that time, Earth had navies ( Malcom's father mentioned that he wanted his son to join the Royal Navy), and would therefore have boats and submarines that utilized torpedoes. Since there were more than just one type of torpedo being produced on/by Earth, It might be just a name to differentiate the two different mediums in which they are used. Reed also mentions a Romulan mine having the same yeild as a Triton-class spatial torpedo, or something like that. Just like there are surface-to-air missiles, air-to-air missiles, ship-to-ship missiles, and air-to-ground missiles in today's militaries.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Perhaps. Just seams odd for serving Starfleet personnel to refer to them like that. I mean it's not as if they're carrying anything else.
"Malcolm, fire the torpedoes!" "Which ones sir? Spatial or Aquatic?" "The Aquatic ones Malcolm. The ones you use in water. We're at sea, can't you tell? Look at all the fishes and squid on the viewscreen." "We don't have any of those sir" "Well gee, I wonder why we didn't think to bring any..." Then there's the small point that Photon Torpedoes are so named to differentiate them from "Spatial Torpedoes" despite that given your interpretation a pho-torp is by definition just another kind of "Spatial Torpedo".
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I'd think that the designations would be used in supply lines, and such,where official designations would be used. THe torps might be officially classified as "Spatial Torpedoes", but onboard a ship I doubt that they would call them that, probably just "torpedoes", like our blundering heroes on NX-01 did.
And, when you think of it, there are different types of torpedoes. Bangalore torpedoes are used on land, but there are several different designs and types, just like there are several different types of aquatic torpedoes, and spatial torpedoes. Photonic/Photon torpedoes would be another catagory, with their own models, like the Mark IIV, or type XI. If Enterprise were to carry both spatial and photonic torps( which would make sense, seeing as how photonics were pretty much experimental), Archer would need to differentiate them somehow.
"Malcom, fire torpedoes."
"Which ones sir?"
"The slow ones that never have any effect on the enemies' sheilds."
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
quote:Originally posted by Daniel Butler: So whenever I want to bug you really badly all I have to do is say how cool Enterprise is?
No, then you will be to me as one dead.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Couldn't you just have said "dead to me?" ;P
quote:And, when you think of it, there are different types of torpedoes. Bangalore torpedoes are used on land, but there are several different designs and types, just like there are several different types of aquatic torpedoes, and spatial torpedoes. Photonic/Photon torpedoes would be another catagory, with their own models, like the Mark IIV, or type XI.
You mean Mark III, or Mark IV?
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Yeah, that.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
The most laser-like weapon I've seen in mainstream sci-fi was the old-school Colonial Warrior's sidearm in Battlestar Galactica (the real one ). Bright flash at the muzzle simultaneous with a 'splosion at the aim-point. Sure seems a lot like a CO2 pulse laser.
What we saw in early Trek might be more like what is being developed now -- where a laser ionises the air and the beam of whatever travels along that path. An ionised waveguide for different forms of plasma, depending on which collimator barrel/capacitor/whatever is in line with the laser? *shrug* Plasma is a more fitting real-world substance for what we observe.
I think the scary breakthrough of phasers is hwo clean they are. When somethign is zapped by it, there's some residual matter/energy bleedover into the surrounding area, but most of the object -- and it's explosive subatomic uncoupling -- is shunted into subspace or something like that. Which is probably what the "phase" part is addressing. At non-disintegrating levels, phasers seem to just have similar plasma-like disruptive effects as the older lasers.
--Jonah
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
quote:What we saw in early Trek might be more like what is being developed now -- where a laser ionises the air and the beam of whatever travels along that path. An ionised waveguide for different forms of plasma, depending on which collimator barrel/capacitor/whatever is in line with the laser? *shrug* Plasma is a more fitting real-world substance for what we observe.
Wouldn't that mean that the plasma weapons we saw early on in Enterprise ( which I know is being totally ignored in this thread) be lasers? Or something similar at least?
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
quote:Originally posted by Daniel Butler: Couldn't you just have said "dead to me?" ;P
Nope, it's a biblical thing. More ominous that way.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sean:
quote:What we saw in early Trek might be more like what is being developed now -- where a laser ionises the air and the beam of whatever travels along that path. An ionised waveguide for different forms of plasma, depending on which collimator barrel/capacitor/whatever is in line with the laser? *shrug* Plasma is a more fitting real-world substance for what we observe.
Wouldn't that mean that the plasma weapons we saw early on in Enterprise ( which I know is being totally ignored in this thread) be lasers? Or something similar at least?
Well no because a Laser is directed and amplified light radiation and Plasma is Ionized Gas, also known as the forth state of matter. Two totally different things. You can however use a laser to initiate plasma and another one to aim it but they remain very separate components. Even still, if you know Enterprise is being ignored here, what's the point in bringing it up? Do you want Masao getting Biblical on your arse?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
All the plasma weapons we saw on ENT were pulse-based anyway. I suppose it's possible that time and advances in science improved the basic flinging-blobs-of-plasma inherent in that method, into the channeling-plasma-along-a-channel-of-gas-ionised-by-laser method you're positing.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Those ENT-originated plasma weapons, and the TOS Romulan plasma torpedo, seem like something similar to the Star Wars "blaster/turbolaser" artefact -- a somehow discrete packet of plasma contained by some kind of short-lived field. Again, can be laser-induced plasma, but that's not what I was talking about. Rev's right on. And Lee's right, too. But I wasn't thinking those were the same technological path.
--Jonah
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I was always under the impression that the Romulan Plasma torpedoes were actual torpedoes that bled compressed plasma into a tight containment field after launch. So the casing itself would be a sort of nucleus, hence it's ability to change course.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Right. In essence the payload protects the guidance system. *heh*
In other plasma weapons, it seems they're dumb-fired bolts with a decaying (magnetic?) field. That's my explanation for how there cna be "flak" bursts in various sci-fi arenas -- the containing field has decayed enough that the plasma within explodes outward and dissipates, possibly imparting some of its energy on a near enough target.
But back to phasers...
--Jonah
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I think we're talking at cross-purposes here. Absolutely the pulse weapons that we know to have been identified as plasma-based are using a delivery system which encapsulates plasma in some sort of field. But what I think we're alltip-toeing around si the idea that the early-TOS weapons could also be plasma-based, but using a system whereby a thin stream of plasma is channelled along a stream of ionised gas, said ionised gas having been created by a laser? Perhaps such a "laser-channelled plasma pistol" might even be come to be known as a "laser pistol" for short?
Hey, I just remembered something: remember back in "Broken Bow," the final confrontation between Archer and, oh bugger, um, head Suliban guy in Future Guy's wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey chamber? One effect from that, where a future-echo of the phase pistol beam is seen, allowing the actual beam to be dodged? That led to all sorts of theorising about the nature of phase beams and initiator/carrier beams. Something like that, I'd search for a link but I'm off to bed.
Speaking of laser-induced plasma channels, they're using that tech to induce lightning strikes in storm clouds right now.
Lee: Name of Silik.
And hi. I'm back. Internet was out for a week. Anybody miss me?
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
I wondered where you were...
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
He was gone?
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: He was gone?
Ahhh, it's good to be home.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I didn't notice either.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
My...my own sidekick?? ET TU, SEAN!?
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I apologize. My tights were restricting blood flow to my brain.
Whilst thou forgiveith thee?
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
So what, your brain is in your pants?
(Wilst thou forgive me. Forgive is in the infinitive there, not conjugated.)
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
(And "thee" means "you".)
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I'm sorry, I'm not used to consciously conjugating the english language. And no Dan, I wear my nylons on top of my head.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Thee is the objective form. I give it to thee, thou givest it to me.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, yes. But he was using it as an object, so that much was okay.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Ok, I reread it. I need to go drink coffee now.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
And I need to go kill Shakespeare.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Ah-heheheh, maybe you can... HACK him to death. Hehhhh. heheh.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I found this at the JoAT web site. It isn't canon, but it may help to explain the change from phase weapons to lasers.
From the Kaneda class destroyer entry:
quote: Kaneda was the first Starfleet vessel armed with dilithium-focused laser cannons. These lasers use a polished dilithium crystal to refocus and amplify the beam fired from a standard high-energy laser. The amplification creates a much more powerful beam than previously used before the advent of plasma and early phased energy weapons. Early tests showed dilithium to be too unstable when exposed to laser light but it was discovered that by modulating the frequency of the laser at very specific wavelengths a stable beam could be established through the dilithium crystal matrix. These lasers replaced the standard phase cannons of previous ships. This technology would be adapted and used for all Starfleet beam weapons until they were eclipsed by the phaser, an evolutionary merging of the early phase weapon technology and the dilithium-focused laser.
Seems to make sense...sort of?
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Not to me...you can't really amplify EM radiation by passing it through a crystal...where's the extra energy coming from? Also, why do they have to use dilithium...they should've said lasers focused with the crystals they use in phasers, what do they call them, some Japanese phrase. Something-no-umi or something. The ones what with that there "rapid nadion effect."
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
). Bright flash at the muzzle simultaneous with a 'splosion at the aim-point. Sure seems a lot like a CO2 pulse laser.