This is topic Benefit of Star Trek TVH in HD in forum Starships & Technology at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.


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Posted by o2 (Member # 907) on :
 
ok, we have the Star Trek TVH on Blu Ray now for a few month and I wonder what kind of information could have been collected so far:

First of all, we could really see the registry of the USS Saratogo in TVH (compare this http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvhhd/tvhhd0212.jpg to this http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvh/ch3/tvh0112.jpg ). Since the number was known before, this is not realy a leap foreward. The name is not legible either, since the proper section on the warp nacelle is a little bit over-exposed.

I had high hopes that we also could spot the registry of the Oberth class spaceship in spacedock at the end of the movie, but as you can see here http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvhhd/tvhhd2249.jpg , the number is - at least to my eyes - still not legible.

There is also no way to identify the Miranda class starship in spacedock when the probe arrives at Earth http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvhhd/tvhhd0293.jpg . The angle for the reg on the warp nacelle is to steep and - for some reason - there is no registry under the impulse drive.

Conclusion: We have now the picture in HD, but no more information then before.
 
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
HD can only go so far as the original film will allow and it's likely the information simply isn't there. The best bet for increased clarity would be if they rescanned the negatives of the original miniature footage and digitally re-composited it into the plates, even then you're always going to be limited by the innate quality of the film and the photochemical processes of the day.

The clearer caps of the Grissom in TSFS were handy though, I've yet to finish off those schematics.
 
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
Your links art broken, o2.
 
Posted by o2 (Member # 907) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nim:
Your links art broken, o2.

The URLs are correct, but the server prohibits deep links to the pictures. Don't know how to fix this...
 
Posted by o2 (Member # 907) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Reverend:
HD can only go so far as the original film will allow and it's likely the information simply isn't there.

Yes, sure, but since I don't have access to the original negatives I have to investigate the material I have access to.

In case of the reg for the Oberth: There is definetly something there, though still not legiable. And so we are waiting for the digitaly remastered version of ST TVH and hope for the best...
 
Posted by o2 (Member # 907) on :
 
...
 
Posted by o2 (Member # 907) on :
 
...
 
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
Ah, it works when going to http://movies.trekcore.com, gets you the whole menu. Good one, oxygen.
 
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
So is the Saratoga NCC-1867 or NCC-1937? I still can't tell. Various editions of the Encyclopedia have used either or both. 1867 would be just one digit changed from the previous labeling (Reliant) but then again 1937 is only one digit away from the next (Lantree).
 
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
 
more like 1887... when did TVH come out? that hull number might be a in-joke..?
 
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
The middle two digits aren't the same, it's just difficult to tell what either of them are.
 
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
 
For the sake of clarity (and perhaps in the interests of link longevity), I have reposted the images o2 attempted to link above:

The USS Saratoga (tvhhd0212.jpg) which compares rather favorably to The Saratoga in SD (tvh0112.jpg)

The Oberth class in Spacedock towards the end of the movie (tvhhd0293.jpg)

The Miranda class in spacedock when the probe arrives at earth (tvhhd0293.jpg)

In conclusion, HD is awesome and these movies look beautiful, but may not give we happy few ship nerds as much new information as we'd dreamt.
 
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
I find it humorous that you made a post "for the sake of clarity" wherein only one out of four links leads to the picture its caption matches.

quote:
Originally posted by bX:
For the sake of clarity (and perhaps in the interests of link longevity), I have reposted the images o2 attempted to link above:

The USS Saratoga (tvhhd0212.jpg) which compares rather favorably to The Saratoga in SD (tvh0112.jpg) !!!

The Oberth class in Spacedock towards the end of the movie (tvhhd0293.jpg) !!!

The Miranda class in spacedock when the probe arrives at earth (tvhhd0293.jpg)!!!

In conclusion, HD is awesome and these movies look beautiful, but may not give we happy few ship nerds as much new information as we'd dreamt.


 
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
 
D'oh!!!! I hate it when I do it backwards! (thanks for letting me know, Mim...) This should work better:

quote:
Originally posted by bX:
For the entirely ironic sake of clarity (and perhaps in the interests of link longevity), I have reposted the images o2 attempted to link above:

The USS Saratoga (tvh0212.jpg) which compares rather favorably to The Saratoga in SD (tvh0112.jpg)

The Miranda class in spacedock when the probe arrives at earth (tvhhd0293.jpg)

The Oberth class in Spacedock towards the end of the movie (tvhhd2249.jpg)

In conclusion, HD is awesome and these movies look beautiful, but may not give we happy few ship nerds as much new information as we'd dreamt.

(Don't know if the moderators were interested in doing their thing here. I've got no problem facing the completely embarrassing fact that I've done more to obfuscate than to improve the original links, but in the interests of the topic at hand, it might be best to deactivate or reassign the links per the above.)
 
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
Believe me, it's happened to me before. I just thought it was funny. [Razz]
 
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
So what ship does the nacelle belong to in the shot where it shows them in the pod in SD?
 
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:
So is the Saratoga NCC-1867 or NCC-1937? I still can't tell. Various editions of the Encyclopedia have used either or both. 1867 would be just one digit changed from the previous labeling (Reliant) but then again 1937 is only one digit away from the next (Lantree).

I would say they went from Reliant's 1864 to Saratoga's 1867 to Lantree's 1837, each time switching only one number around. Going from 1864 to 1937 would require them removing the 8, flipping the 6 around, adding a 3, and adding a 7.
 
Posted by o2 (Member # 907) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by AndrewR:
So what ship does the nacelle belong to in the shot where it shows them in the pod in SD?

That is the big question! No markings are visible and even the class is not certain either. Looks like an Constituion-Class starboard nacelle to me (and I'm pretty sure ILM used the Enterprise model for this shot), but it could by also a class that we don't know yet.

It was reported on another site that there is somewhere in the movie a reference to a NCC-1707.
 
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
 
I don't recall any spoken reference to NCC-1707, though with the HD versions, those big displays at Starfleet Command are suddenly pretty legible, not that, you know, they make any sense. (more here) The nacelle does look like a right-side-up Constitution Class nacelle. I would assume it was that, baring other references. Don't have the novelization (not that it would mention such things).
 
Posted by o2 (Member # 907) on :
 
There was no spoken reference, but a display in the space dock control both with a kind of escape route for a starship, labeled NCC-1707, out of the space dock. I'm not sure if it is visible on screen at all, but the actual graphic from the art department was sold at the auction from a couple of month ago.
 
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
These screenshots only serve to remind me how freaking awesome the original Excelsior model was. Sulu got one cool ride... Shame it got pimped into something only marginally less cool.

Mark
 
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
 
Seriously, and those shots of the inside of Spacedock in STIII are epic, especially when the battle damaged Enterprise and Excelsior first encounter each other.
 
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
I always loved that scene. I love those huge windows in that lounge! Very simple but so believeable. That's the thing about Star Trek - well at least the age of the physical model - most of the designs were futuristic but very much believable. You could envisage your self walking on those ships or in those space stations. Standing there watching giant starships come and go. For all it's sweeping lines etc. The 'new' TOS Enterprise from STXI looks... intangible.
 
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
 
I wonder how much of this is owed to TMPs super-indulgent overflight of that gorgeous model. Like A) taking the time out of the movie to do that (it's what, like, 20 minutes? (I know it isn't, but it feels that way!)) and B) putting the effort into the model-building so that it stands up to that much scrutiny. As it was. I felt like the new movie had some pacing issues. Perhaps they should have lingered longer on the new ship. Given the Goldsmith treatment maybe people could have fallen in love with her (and simultaneously we could have watched Kirk fall in love with her).

I do love these spacedock scenes. It really does give you a sense of scale for these vessels, and you're right, Andrew. Trek really does give you the feeling that these ships are real places where people are walking around, doing stuff, looking at stuff, etc. Never really got that from the Star Destroyers. At least not in the same way as watching these huge things lumber past a bay window in space dock, or watching the little shuttles flitting over them. Recall nearly being in tears at the theater when the 1701-A was revealed. Really need to start making some money so I can buy a blu-ray player and re-experience these without having to click through screengrabs.
 
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
 
quote:
Conclusion: We have now the picture in HD, but no more information then before.
On the contrary, we now have incontrovertible proof that registries and names on the movie models were changed from STII & III to STIV (we now know that the Reliant NCC-1864 was relabeled as the Saratoga NCC-1867. I'm still unsure about the Grissom being relabeled as the Copernicus since the Spacedock shot still isn't clear, but with my very good eyes I can make out what looks to be "623" which is the Copernicus's registry number).
 
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dukhat:
quote:
Conclusion: We have now the picture in HD, but no more information then before.
On the contrary, we now have incontrovertible proof that registries and names on the movie models were changed from STII & III to STIV (we now know that the Reliant NCC-1864 was relabeled as the Saratoga NCC-1867. I'm still unsure about the Grissom being relabeled as the Copernicus since the Spacedock shot still isn't clear, but with my very good eyes I can make out what looks to be "623" which is the Copernicus's registry number).
I see what you mean about "incontrovertible proof," but really we already knew that. Okuda told us. (I asked him specifically about the Copernicus and he said he'd seen behind the scenes photos that showed the name & registry. I never saw any good reason to doubt him.) And we could always see that the Saratoga wasn't NCC-1864.

[ September 17, 2009, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
 
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bX:
Really need to start making some money so I can buy a blu-ray player and re-experience these without having to click through screengrabs.

I was reading that and at first I thought you were going to say that you needed to start making some money so you can start building your own! [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Nguyen:
These screenshots only serve to remind me how freaking awesome the original Excelsior model was. Sulu got one cool ride... Shame it got pimped into something only marginally less cool.

Mark

Pimped twice. The "NX" version Excelsior is waaay cooler than the STVI version- and it has a bridge that makes sense!
At least that (NX) version was put into service despite the STVI tweaking- the Crazy Horse and Hood were both shot useing the NX version Excelsior (as it was before the STVI mods were made).
So just think- assuming that the Excelsior was in service for a while, that would mean that all three version of the Excelsior class served at the same time!

Maybe the "Refit" was a limited run design upgrade?
 
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
 
quote:
I see what you mean about "incontrovertible proof," but really we already knew that. Okuda told us. (I asked him specifically about the Copernicus and he said he'd seen behind the scenes photos that showed the name & registry. I never saw any good reason to doubt him.) And we could always see that the Saratoga wasn't NCC-1864.
If, when you say "we," you really mean "you," then you're right. But speaking for myself, I didn't know anything about what Okuda said. And judging from that standard-def cap of the Saratoga, I'd respectfully disagree that "we could always see that the Saratoga wasn't NCC-1864." I couldn't see shit from that cap, or by watching my DVD of the movie.
 
Posted by o2 (Member # 907) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dukhat:
I'm still unsure about the Grissom being relabeled as the Copernicus since the Spacedock shot still isn't clear, but with my very good eyes I can make out what looks to be "623" which is the Copernicus's registry number).

I still have my doubts, since I'n not even able to make out the 'NCC-' - and this is something that we all know that it has to be there. Besides, isn't the second number from the right not looking like a '4'?
 
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
Maybe the "Refit" was a limited run design upgrade?

Maybe it was a mission-specific upgrade? Well we got the Lakota around the same time as other Excelsiors were being built which were the STVI variety... as seen in the shipyard scene in "Relativity".
 
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by o2:

I still have my doubts, since I'm not even able to make out the 'NCC-' - and this is something that we all know that it has to be there. Besides, isn't the second number from the right not looking like a '4'?

The "NCC" is kinda blurry, but with squinting my eyes I make out what looks to me like "623." It may look different to you, but that's what I see.
 
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dukhat:
quote:
I see what you mean about "incontrovertible proof," but really we already knew that. Okuda told us. (I asked him specifically about the Copernicus and he said he'd seen behind the scenes photos that showed the name & registry. I never saw any good reason to doubt him.) And we could always see that the Saratoga wasn't NCC-1864.
If, when you say "we," you really mean "you," then you're right. But speaking for myself, I didn't know anything about what Okuda said.
Well, I posted about it here at the time. Plus, it was in the Encyclopedia. If you leave aside the TOS stuff that is clearly conjectural and a few honest errors, the ship info presented there is very reliable, what with Okuda having had access to behind the scenes material, he and his coworkers in the art and VFX departments having created much of it. Did you think he just pulled the Copernicus' info out of his ass? Why would he do such a thing?
 
Posted by o2 (Member # 907) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dukhat:
The "NCC" is kinda blurry, but with squinting my eyes I make out what looks to me like "623." It may look different to you, but that's what I see.

Believe me, I want to believe! Is there any change to get a hand on the picute that Mr. Okuda mentioned?
 
Posted by o2 (Member # 907) on :
 
It is chance, not change... [see above]
 
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
quote:
Believe me, I want to believe! Is there any change to get a hand on the picute that Mr. Okuda mentioned?
Any picutes, official or nonofficial picutes, would have to be cleared with the Paramount temporal copyright agency (yes they're that good), and after that, the eventual release of the picute would have to be cleared with the Okuda estate.

That being said, I also want to see it!
 
Posted by o2 (Member # 907) on :
 
After a few day of discussion I would like to present a shot summarize of TVH in HD.

USS Saratoga

Maybe for the first time ever we have confirmation that the registry of the Saratoge is indeed NCC-1867. Pictures are available, case closed.

Miranda in Spacedock

There is a Miranda in space dock, but without a registry unter the impulse drive (the Reliant has one here). The registry on the back end of the warp nacelle is not legible, the angle of view is to steep. Even if there will be ever a better mastered Blu Ray disc this number will most likely not be identified.

USS Yorktown

We see the captain of the Yorktown speaking, but there is no new data in the frame. Nevertheless, I would like to add a new peace of information, that has maybe not been discuessed before: Accourding to the background wall panels, the appearence is very Mirande/Constitution/Oberth-bridge-ish. There is no way to tell the class of the ship, but it seeams that the ship is state of the art. Since the Yorktown was mentioned in TOS 'Obsession' for the first time and I further assume that his is still the same ship, I think it is save to say that the ship has been refitted. Still no clue of the class, though, but a) if only Constituntion class ships have been refitted so far, the Yorktown is a constituton class starship or b) other classed have been refitted as well!

USS Shepard

The ship name is only mentiond on audio, but it is there.

Oberth in space dock

The registry is now clearer then ever, but (at least to me) still not legible. Some people here in this forum think that the screencap support the NCC-623-theory. I have high hopes that a better (remastered) version of the movie will reveal the mistery of the ship's registry.

First warp nacelle

Only the port warp nacelle can be seen in one picture and it can be ruled out that this one is connected to a Mirande class starship. But there is no evidence that this one belongs to a Constitution class starship.

Second warp nacelle

There is another (starboard) warp nacelle, this time with a pylon attached to it. This looks like a constitution class to me, but again, no one can tell. Further, there is indeed a registry on the back tail of the warp nacelle, again, with a too steep angle to identify.

Star Fleet Command

Maybe the greatest disappointment so far: For the first time ever we have the opportunity to visis the heard of Starfleet. And with the HD screencaps we can read all the stuff that is displayed on the many displays. But it seeams that there is no information at all. On some star charts you can see abstract symbols for ships, but they are labled with ... only NCC! No number is given!

Conclusion:

For me, TVH was the best candidate for finding new bits and pieces, but so far no luck...
 
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
So, I'm the only one to whom the Saratoga looks more like NCC-1937 than NCC-1867? It seems like the dimples are on the wrong sides of the digits to be the latter? Maybe it's just the one frame that's been capped, though; has anyone viewed the Blu-ray for themselves?
 
Posted by o2 (Member # 907) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:
Maybe it's just the one frame that's been capped, though; has anyone viewed the Blu-ray for themselves?

I did, but while watching, 1937 would not came to my mind. I have to admit that 8 and 9 and 3 and 6 are very easy to mix up, but at least from my point of view there are no indications for a 9 or a 3.
 
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
 
quote:
Did you think he just pulled the Copernicus' info out of his ass? Why would he do such a thing?
I neither said nor implied that Okuda pulled the info out of his ass. I said that we now have proof that the ship models in the movies were relabeled. I never said that it wasn't done, only that we didn't have physical proof of it until now. Don't get so defensive. [Wink]
 
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:
So, I'm the only one to whom the Saratoga looks more like NCC-1937 than NCC-1867? It seems like the dimples are on the wrong sides of the digits to be the latter? ...

Really? That one looks very much like an 8 to me. It's really only that troublesome third digit in the HD cap that I'm having trouble reading...
 


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