quote:

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Originally posted by Axeman 3D:
OK, branching out from our discussion of the USS Bradbury and the fact that we haven't really seen a colony ship in Trek, I though it time we create one. Besides, it's been pointed out that it's been a while since the board did any real starship creation as a whole, so it will be a good excersize.

Before we start putting virtual pen to paper, we need to decide what the ship will be designed to do, and from that we get dimensions, capabilities, etc. I'll start the ball rolling...

RFP - trek colony ship
Starfleet issues a request for proposals for a self-contained colony ship capable of reaching and then establishing a self-sustaining colony of no less than 500 beings on distant M-class (or near M-class) worlds, ranging in climate from high desert to tropical conditions. Minimal conversion should be required for arctic/ice worlds if so required. The following are also considered desirable...

Lifeboat - ability to return the colonists in the event of disaster, albeit under emergency conditions.

Space Dock - a spaceborne section for the transfer of volatile supplies and personnel from spacecraft not capable of landing on planets would be benefitial, and would assist with planetary studies.

Local Comms - A system of orbital installations that can be deployed to assist colonists with planet-wide communications, location tracking, ground mapping and transporter targetting.

Inter stellar comms - subsapce comms array for regular contact with core system worlds and UFP control.

That's about all i can think of for now, does it get anyones juices flowing? What should we design into this thing? Personally I think it should be a one-shot deal with small engines, not something designed for reuse, but we'll see how the gang feel. Any ideas?

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I think we're both on the same page as most of that was in my thought process when I sketched up that quick concept.

For me the trickiest bit is the secondary hull, which to me seams the best candidate for the orbital section. Obviously you don't want to ground the warp system as, aside from the weight, density and sheer bulk of things, they'd essentially be two (or four) very large useless lumps of metal...though given their innate conductivity I imagine they'd be dangerously efficient lightning rods. However, wouldn't they just be in the way if left attached to an orbital facility...*little light bulb flicks on*...hmm. Warp Sled? Maybe parked in an even higher orbit where it would essentially become an unmanned power station, with the bussards scooping stray hydrogen brought in by the planet's electromagnetic field, allowing the M/AM converters and the reactor to chug away at a lower setting, but still providing more than enough energy to supply the station and colony from a safe distance and as a supplement to the on-board fusion reactors.
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
Ok, before I nod off, here's the concept as I'm seeing it now.

The angular shapes were only meant to be place-holders but I'm actually staring to like the form follows function look of this...

If it's at all unclear let me know, I'm just too knackered right now to write out an explanation of all the features.
 

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Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
 
Like it - the "warp sled" could also serve the role of local (within a system or three) survey ship as well as other short-range-ship roles.

I don't think we should discard the possibility that it would turn around and go back for another load. 500 isn't a very big colony, but make several trips and you have a couple thousand, tons of stuff on the surface and a nice sized space station in orbit to watch over everything.

In any case, I'd make the sled piece bigger. Doesn't look big enough to do much maybe let it have deck high section going forward?
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
Trek examples of colonization missions seem to indicate that the norm for such operations is to send general transport ships with all you mention EXCEPT having space installations. Starfleet generally isn't involved in these missions, save for escort or defence. Consider episodes like "Up the Long Ladder" or "Ensigns of Command", wherein civilian colonization missions gear up on transport ships and head out on their own. There are examples like "Silicon Avatar" where Stafleet visits colonies to drop off supplies and materials the colony ships didn't or couldn't bring along.

Then there's the NEED for an orbital installation... Trek usually suggests that most civilian transports involved in colonization can land; thus, there would be little need for a space-based station for repairs or extra-atmospheric support. Communications are likewise handled from a facility on tehr ground, with the space assets being sumspace relay buoys and the like.

Finally, it rarely looks like Federation colonies are really THAT far "out there", or far from support in the first place. If they were to have their own ship, they could buy an older surplus Starfleet ship or arrange to arm a civilian design. In any case, except for shuttles and local sublight designs I don't think that a colony would even WANT to have a larger starship on their doorstep, as Trek seems to prove that having such a ship around would ATTRACT danger.

Mark

Mark
 

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Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
 
I think there would be a need for something a bit more specialised than just adventurous individuals setting out in transports and hoping for the best. If not civilians, then military needs would dictate that there would be some sort of dedicated ship for the role. With no dedicated ship, then we're looking at everything a colony would need could have to fit in a hold or standard container, which is a bit limiting in both capacity and time to set up.

Of course we might be looking at something fancy like building a station or colony base on the ground from linked containerised sections. It would be like a portacabin village on a construction site, but with life support and containerised power modules and so forth. I tried designing a modular moonbase like that once, it was quite interesting but tougher than it looked.

Today in many countries they're experimenting with that very idea, and some housing actually uses standard 20' and 40' cargo containers that have been fitted out as rooms. Likewise there's an underground bunker in Canada built out of dozens of school buses buried under a mound of earth and concrete. Our current ISS is built from modules transported up and assembled in sections, it's an idea that works well when cargo space is limited.

On the replicator question, replicators use a lot of power and still need raw materials for processing. I imagine they'd be a luxury that the colony wouldn't want to waste on middling stuff, and instead would want to begin farming and raising livestock as soon as possible, or on more barren worlds it would seek out the natural resources they need to keep a replicator going indefinitely. For military applications I'd think they'd use replicators all the time, but they are then reliant on regular deliveries from their pals in space.
 

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Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Toadkiller:
Like it - the "warp sled" could also serve the role of local (within a system or three) survey ship as well as other short-range-ship roles.

I don't think we should discard the possibility that it would turn around and go back for another load. 500 isn't a very big colony, but make several trips and you have a couple thousand, tons of stuff on the surface and a nice sized space station in orbit to watch over everything.

In any case, I'd make the sled piece bigger. Doesn't look big enough to do much maybe let it have deck high section going forward?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Toadkiller:
I guess I'm just thinking that warp engines and such seem to be pretty resource expensive and you'd want to use them more than just for the one trip out. Especially since a 500 person colony is going to want to grow.

Axeman - I'd also think they'd really, really want an orbital outpost. In case of scary things in the night and the like.

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one thought... is it cannon/common occurance for Feddy colonies to have orbital support of any sort? (besides Satalites/probes)
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
I think it's simply never been addressed.
If nothing else, it might be a wise place to keep the emergency reserve supplies. Fire, flood, storms or contaminations can't get into orbit after all.
 

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Posted by Vanguard (Member # 1780) on :
 
There's been a couple of official 'colony' ships, but the ones that seemed to fit the bill most were in the 'Birth of the Federation' game. The design, though, while explicitly stated as being able to be 'taken apart for the colony' didn't really seem to lend itself to that.



Now, if you assume that the bits behind the half-saucer and straddling the 'engineering core' running down the length are modular in nature, it might suit the bill a lot better, though you would be left with a 'semi' ship of a warp engine, spire, and half-saucer when you're done.

But since those would also be the 'expensive' parts of the ship, and not needed for a colony, that too might make sense.
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
That just looks like a generic, kit-bashed container transport to me. I can't really see anything in terms of specialisation.


Kenny: Since you mentioned the length of the nacelles; I'm thinking (in regards to my sketch anyway) that the front half would be where the deuterium tanks are located, right behind the scoops.
 

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Posted by Vanguard (Member # 1780) on :
 
Well it is, but I'm not sure exactly WHAT different components would be required for a colony transport as opposed to any other transport. Honestly, what are you otherwise looking at?
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
Exactly. Trek usually addresses the human need to EXPLORE, not EXPAND. Stuff like colonization isn't addressed as much simply because the Trek universe is more about hopping in spaceships and heading "out there".

To address what a ship would take "out there", you must first address WHY the mission would be taking place. There is little evidence that any colony missions are designed specifically to take people far away from the Federation; the only real evidence is that of two deep-space explorer ships that Starfleet rerouted towards Voyager, meeting them (still some 30+ years away) in just a few years.

Mark
 

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Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Reverend:
I think it's simply never been addressed.
If nothing else, it might be a wise place to keep the emergency reserve supplies. Fire, flood, storms or contaminations can't get into orbit after all.

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Sorry, Sorry.... you did get Fire Insurance, Flooding and storm insurance but because you didn't get ANY protection for your valuables in space (Ferengi/bandits/thieves/Klingons/etc), we can't help you... because you were a boob and leaving your valuables in such a helpless and easy to extract-with-impunity location, in orbit...

can i offer you some coffee?

quote:

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Originally posted by Vanguard:
Well it is, but I'm not sure exactly WHAT different components would be required for a colony transport as opposed to any other transport. Honestly, what are you otherwise looking at?

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Is that USS Edwards colonly pic video-game cannnon or something fanish? where you get it?
 

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Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
 
I'm all for an orbital outpost to any colony, it makes great sense. You have a waystation for visiting supply ships or traders, a safe high-ground in the event of something unforseen happening on the planet, and all the benefits we get today from satellites. If I were a colonist or engineer exploring the surface, it would be nice to have a GPS system, back-up transport facilities and planetwide comms links, dont you think? I also dont think everything in space is going to be attacked by Klingons and baddies of all sorts, we're talking home-building and not invasion here.

I think if we build a dedicated colony ship and not a bog-standard transport, it would be a one-way deal that would be disassembled upon reaching its target. Most of it would be landed, a portion left in space and the rest broken up for raw materials. Its antimatter core would be used on the planet as a power station, it's shuttlebays as hangars and workshops, and the rest used to make habitats for more colonists.

If we think that standard transports would be a better idea, then we might think about what they would carry or how they would be adapted to the role with the most ease. I've started fleshing out an idea for a bulk transport that can carry large cargo containers and land them on a planet, or even carry mission specific modules for special use.
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
I'm trying to think of SF precedents, and two things that pop to mind are as follows:

1) The Ares colony ship from Kim Stanley Robinson's excellent "Red Mars" novel and sequels. The Ares in question is built out of Russian space station components, a propulsion module, and a series of space shuttle external tanks refit after use as habitats. When they arrived at Mars, the Ares was broken up into useful components and much of it went into building an outpost on one of the Martian moons. Other parts were landed (in addition to the cargo ships already there) and even more eventually foud its way into the orbital elevator IIRC.

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=90fd7febd477edd78be382c3a81ea8a9

2) The "Macross 7" colony fleet from the anime series of the same name. The fleet comprised number of city-sized colony ships, most of which were specialized for certain functions: the Riviera-class beach resort ship, the Hollywood-class entertainment ship, the Sunny Flower class agricultural vessel, and so on. When they found the right planet each colony ship would conceivably land somewhere and form the core of a ready-made city. Also, each colony ship had a military warship attached to it (literally docked to the front of the ship in most cases) that would be each ship's military base and fighter carrier.

http://www.new-un-spacy.com/macross7/newmacross/city7.gif

How about this as an idea - a colony ship could monopolize the use of older stafleet or merchant marine hulls as ready-made, spaceworthy buildings a la Jupiter station, except deposited on a planet? A newbuild warp propulsion complex would ferry a bunch of old NX or Daedalus class hulls to a new home and new use as not only planetside buildings, but an orbital construct?

Mark
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
There is of course a Star Trek precedent for this concept; the Conestoga. Though that ship didn't leave behind a space station, just landed and got disassembled.

I've given a little thought to what the prefab structures might look like and came up with this concept.

It'd be stored flat in eight separate parts so it can be configured as needed. Capable of directly linking with another structure of it's type (and presumably any other similar models already in use), can be stacked vertically and each would have it's own life support system for anything from vacuum to inner life-zone deserts. The internal walls are easily reconfigured into any layout needed so one of these can act as an independent house, a public building or a smaller section of a larger complex, like a hospital ward.
 

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Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
 
That's pretty similar to the concept I came up with a couple of years ago, except mine were square. Stackable, interlinking modules with specialised modules providing power, hydroponics, etc. I also had some interconnecting tunnel sections for spanning distances, and some double sized ones for use as connecting hubs, hangars and control rooms. The best analogy was Space 1999 and Alpha moonbase, which although not necessarily modular, was a good design for a space outpost.

Mark, I think the Macross thing is waaaaay over the top for our needs, and the KSR Mars stuff too basic, although the concept is sound. We could go with early era hulls being reused instead of shuttle tanks I suppose, although that sort of salvage and recycling doesn't sit that well with the picture we get of the Federation being a go-ahead type of society. We could certainly have a think about it...
 

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Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
 
How are said modules detached and dropped onto the planet?

The DY 100 class had cargo modules on the outside. Are they simply dropped from orbit and hope they land/parachute where the colony is planned? Or do you see these ships actually landing and then the modules unloaded or detached?
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 

quote:

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That's pretty similar to the concept I came up with a couple of years ago, except mine were square. Stackable, interlinking modules with specialised modules providing power, hydroponics, etc. I also had some interconnecting tunnel sections for spanning distances, and some double sized ones for use as connecting hubs, hangars and control rooms. The best analogy was Space 1999 and Alpha moonbase, which although not necessarily modular, was a good design for a space outpost.

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quote:

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How are said modules detached and dropped onto the planet?

The DY 100 class had cargo modules on the outside. Are they simply dropped from orbit and hope they land/parachute where the colony is planned? Or do you see these ships actually landing and then the modules unloaded or detached?

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Well in my little concept the saucer section detaches, splits into five sections then each section makes a controlled entry into the atmosphere.
 

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Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
 
OK, here's a quick view of my idea for a versatile cargo hauler that could be used to lug sections to a planet, or even mission specific modules for Star Fleet.





This is just a rough shape to show the idea of what I'm getting at for a cargo hauler. I figure the nose section houses any crew or passengers, the side arms are nice and chunky and house the landing gear, warp engines and impulse engines at the very rear. The mid section can be either a mission specific module (carrier, command section, passenger area, cargo) or even a larger cargo container or group of smaller containers.

I dont like the idea of warp ships towing long lines of stuff, but slightly larger than the ship is allowable. At first I had it with a snug fitting container section dropped from the belly like Thunderbird 2, but I figured I was limiting the module sizes and capabilities and decided on a side grab arrangement instead. Just a thought. I need to work on some more ideas, I should get something more solid tonight.
 

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Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
 
^Added bonus, the containers/sections don't have to have any thermal protection (tiles, shields, whatever) to protect them from the heat of atmospheric entry.
 

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Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
 
I like the concept Reverend has come with for the hexagonal pods - reminds me of blockbusters.

I used to work for a company that had developed a sort of plastic utility cabin, as a kind of cheap, more mobile and more customisable portakabin for use on sites.

The basic concept was a hard, durable plastic floor about 10' x 10' with shaped corners. Into each corner an 8' leg fitted, and was secured by quick action clamps, which you tightend to lock, and then the roof went on, in a similar fashion.

You then picked what walls you wanted from a huge range, including doors, windows, fold out tables, blackboards, showers, loos etc etc. These were than clipped into place, and because the whole thing was modaular, you could have as many as you wanted, all clipped together. If you wanted to change it or move it - piece of cake. You could put each module up, single handed, in about 3 minutes.

Frankly if I were you, I'd patent the concept as some sort of emeregency shelter for areas with no or damaged infrastructure.

On the actual design - I'd probably move the hatch that links the floors so that it's in line with the supports, and probably make it rectangular, so you could fit a stair case or something, and rip off the customisable wall idea.

That would allow you to stack them, but not just one on top of another, or tesselating. I might also design a secondary external framework, to support taller buildings. I see these as being more semi permanant than akin to a temporary portakabin.

I also appreciate, that I'm being a bit too real world here and going of concept slightly, but shrug.
 

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Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
 
I'd say it was all good input, and close enough for me. We're looking in essence at how to create a colony, and from that what kind of ship you'd need to get the colony there.

The idea of an external framework is interesting, but how about an internal mounting system instead? How about something like a tall cylinder system coming up from either a large base unit or a foundation driven (or transported?) into the ground for stability. The units then either arrange around the side of the support, or slide down over it like CDs on a spindle. You can then use the cylinder support as a stairway or turbolift, as well as a riser for services. Any good?
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
My thinking was that vertical supports could be slid down through apertures that are hidden under those darker hexagons and affix via a clamp built into both floor and ceiling units.

As for the stairs, my thinking was that small hatch would be enough for a reasonably sized spiral or a lift, with heavier equipment being winched up though the central aperture, with in the ceiling is used as a skylight but on the floor can be plated over or uncovered as need be.
I did consider a specialised, slightly larger series of vertically stacked units acting as a central hub for for a tight cluster of domicile type modules, with wider stairways going up the outer walls and an open vertical space down the middle.
 

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Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Ginger Beacon:
I like the concept Reverend has come with for the hexagonal pods - reminds me of blockbusters.

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I'll have a P please Bob.

Wow, this stuff rocks guys! I've hit a dry spot in my writing and have been looking for something to kick-start again, just to get back into writing since I hit a wall 3 days ago...and this has done it! I'm about 1,500 words into a piece about an early colony and this stuff has really helped! Obviously I've not ripped off your ideas directly...but interconnectable modules and such do feature in it (it's actually a pretty damn cool idea and can't believe I over-complicated everything! )...hmm I wonder if I could adapt that idea for space station construction...hmm....reminds me of the Enterprise-D lifepods...weren't they supposed to be able to link up into a giant chain or network or something? What if the colony ship was made up in a similar way, lots of little modules all connected to a main stardrive section...

Hmm...

*Trots off back to notepad...starts scribbling again*
 

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Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Reverend:
My thinking was that vertical supports could be slid down through apertures that are hidden under those darker hexagons and affix via a clamp built into both floor and ceiling units.

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I think if we go inserting half a dozen big pillars, a spiral staircase and winches in every room, it's going to eat up a lot of valuable space and also rather compromises the integrity of the engineering. I think simple flat connectors or rising linkages (like the saucer connectors on the Ent-D) would allow reasonable security without eating into room space and penetrating the walls more than you need to. From the look of them they could be stacked to a fair height without crushing the lower rooms anyway.

These could even be used to build your space station if built to the correct tolerances, as long as we have some decent hub system for interconnecting them. Portacabins In Space!
 

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Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
 
OK, here's the product of a couple of hours work listening to Pink Floyd and working on the idea from Reverend...

Trek-Hex modules on planet surface

They're roughly based on Revs hex design, with minor modifications. I wanted to see what would crop up when putting them in an environment, and it gave me further ideas which we might or might not implement one day. They're 20m across at maximum width, and about 3.5m high. I used a tongue and groove idea, with the indent on the top mirrored by an identical bit jutting out below which would act as feet when just on a surface. This means they would fit well together, and connectors could easily be lined up and automated.

Some of the things I thought about when looking at this picture were...

Lights It needed spots so people can find their way in the dark when in the vicinity, and to light the surroundings.

Shutters What if there were sandstorms or a breach in the window? Security even?

Stairs On some planets you could fit external stairs without the need to waste space inside.

Foundations Self leveling legs? special platform? Concrete?
 

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Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
 
For a foundation you'd need something that would be able to distribute the weight for long-term settlement. Feet aren't really useful unless you're directly on a rock formation or something like a salt flat (not where you'd want to start a colony). You'd need a platform of some sort to spread out the weight or drive piles to support the structure.

Which wouldn't be a bad idea to have as an option, as eventually with expansion or changing weather conditions your pods might end up in a swamp or on soft soils.
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Inustrial replicators might be sent down to a planet first to create a foundation- or even a habitat dome prior to the ship parts landing.
It would likely establish sanitation and water pumping/reclimation/irrigation basics as well.
The Industrial replicator would probably become the center of "town" with initail modules arranged roughly around it.

Lights and shutters ae excellent ideas- the shutters might have been heat/radiation shielding for planetary entry when in ship mode and might still serve in that capacity.
Never know when that solar flare is gonna cause troubles.
A minor settlement shield is probably a good idea and could be made from the ship's deflector grid- nothing to stop planetary bombardment mind you, just something to keep the weather at bay during initial construction and occasional tornados/hurricanes.

hmmm....I wonder if the cargo pods on those cardie freighters are made for deployment from orbit- kinda a quick colony resupply from space: just drop a bunch of cargo pods which expand the colony's infrastructure while resupplying it- the empty pods become new building materials, etc.
It's also possible that the cargo/landing pods themselves are specialy designed to feed the industrial replicator(s)- possibly even with layered protien molecules in the pod's cobstruction.
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 

quote:

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I think if we go inserting half a dozen big pillars, a spiral staircase and winches in every room, it's going to eat up a lot of valuable space and also rather compromises the integrity of the engineering. I think simple flat connectors or rising linkages (like the saucer connectors on the Ent-D) would allow reasonable security without eating into room space and penetrating the walls more than you need to. From the look of them they could be stacked to a fair height without crushing the lower rooms anyway.

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quote:

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These could even be used to build your space station if built to the correct tolerances, as long as we have some decent hub system for interconnecting them. Portacabins In Space!

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quote:

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Lights It needed spots so people can find their way in the dark when in the vicinity, and to light the surroundings.

Shutters What if there were sandstorms or a breach in the window? Security even?

Stairs On some planets you could fit external stairs without the need to waste space inside.

Foundations Self leveling legs? special platform? Concrete?

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Lights: I thought about that and my thinking was a pair of reconfigurable floods/spots that retract into each corner and can be retuned to any focal distance or spectral frequency. Since I imagine some planets are around stars that produce light that isn't the yellow we're all used to and/or had moons that reflect a different colour at night. Plus having IR lamps would be useful for night vision.

Shutters: I'm reasonably sure transparent aluminium is pretty strong stuff, so a breach is unlikely, though a mechanism that controls opacity would be in order for the sake of privacy or other activities that require darkness.

Stairs: Yeah, I figured an external stairway and or gantry would be easy enough to rig up. With a decent scaffy it can be done in minutes, doesn't have to be particularly high-tech.

Foundations: That's where the six telescoping pillars would come in.


 

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Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
 
Axemans tounge & groove idea is spot on I think. If the supports go through the modules, than the need for external frames is negated - I was thinking of the rigidity of the modules when you stack them, but that solves it.

A few other practical things - the concave are on the top of the upmost cabin might require guttering or covering, depending on the weather. Also, it might be an idea to have reinforced areas (or just markings on the outside) for sticking things like external stairs or mezanines on.
 

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Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
 
As a side note, a quick bout of mental arithmetic (assuming your man there is about 6 feet tall) suggests a floor plan for each of these of about 23 m^2 (≈245 sq ft), with a useable volume of roughly 80 m^3 (≈100 yd^3) – so they are about the size of a bed-sit.

With a partition for a 'hygeine area' including a toitet, wash basin, and shower combo, there's plently of room for a bed and living. I would assume that the furniture would be like that fold up, multi-function stuff you get in Ikea - a 23rd century sofa bed.
 

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Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
 
Axeman - that picture totally rocks! I'm so jealous! Wish I could produce stuff like that.

quote:

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Originally posted by Reverend:
[QUOTE

Shutters: I'm reasonably sure transparent aluminium is pretty strong stuff, so a breach is unlikely, though a mechanism that controls opacity would be in order for the sake of privacy or other activities that require darkness.

Stairs: Yeah, I figured an external stairway and or gantry would be easy enough to rig up. With a decent scaffy it can be done in minutes, doesn't have to be particularly high-tech.

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Why bother investing in technology for this when curtains will do the trick? You don't want to over-complicate things...
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
Curtains don't block gamma rays or high levels of UV. They won't be out of the question in terms of décor though, after all, who wants to live in a bare metal box?

I've often puzzled at why on Star Trek everyone's quarters (aside from being freakishly neat) had pictures of space hanging on the walls...I mean there's tons of space right outside the window! Surely someone living in cramped conditions would rather see natural Earth (or Vulcan or Andor..., depending on species) vistas than black empty space and gas clouds.
 

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Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
 
Ginger, I think you're right about the guttering job, but it's so much easier to simply invert the idea and have the groove on the underside and the 'tongue' part sitting proud on top. The foundations could be built accordingly, and the raised part on top could also provide a simple fixing point for other stuff to clamp on, like lights, ladder, antennae and so forth.

When I made the cabins I was somewhat disappointed by how small they were, basically just rooms. I would think they would be useful and easy to transport, but they dont provide real useful, versatile volume unless you use them in great numbers. I'm thinking something more the size of 5 or 6 of these things in a ring would be better, and something that size could form the basis of a small space station like the one mentioned previously.
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
Perhaps that groove could have little inlets to drain away any water, or perhaps even draw it in to the reclamation systems?

As for the size, yeah they're only meant to be small porta-cabin type things. Anything bigger and it becomes somewhat impractical to transport. Though I can see say seven of these strung together without the 'outer' walls in-between them to create a reasonably large open space, with just some pillars around the middle. With the vertical members taking the weight, I imagine you could go up several levels in that configuration. In fact the bigger the structure, the less 'outer' sections and floors you'll need to use as a basic metal beam and tile arrangement can span the internal spaces, which would also give you a foot or so extra head room per floor.

[EDIT]

Something like this.


On the other hand perhaps a group of three, two story, diamond shaped sections could be used for larger structures?

[ September 25, 2008, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Reverend ]
 

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Posted by OverRon (Member # 2036) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Reverend:
Something like this.

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Those pics so remind me of the UFOs from UFO: Enemy Unknown/X-COM: UFO Defence.

As for larger pre-fabbed open areas, why not have them using some inflated geodesic domes, kinda like the Eden project we have in this day and age.
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
How do these get down?
I mean, does the ship somehow fly in and deposit them (imoractical) or do they drop from orbit?
If they drop from space, breaking thrusters should be added to the design.

Could a largeish starship beam these down? We saw the "E" beam whole shuttles, so the mass is possible- and would solve a lot of issues with landing legs, etc.

Maybe SCE guys prefab the area to get it ready for the pods prior to the colony ship's arrival: I mean, someone would have to visit the colony site prior to the colonyship ever heading out to scout all sorts of stuff that simple planetary surveying would not bother with.

You know, to check for stuff like native eel things that crawl into your ear or imminent solar explosions....trivial stuff.
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
They come down inside a cargo container in their various components and are assembled on the ground. Storing what are essentially empty boxes, fully assembled aboard a spaceship is an extremely inefficient use of volume.

As for transporters; I don't know about Kenny, but for the purposes of this thread I'd prefer not to depend on transporter or replicator technology for the design.
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
I was thinking that the containers themselves were full of all the other colony equipment and then, after the containers are emptied, they serve as the basic buildings to be customized as needed.
So- no space is wasted at all: the conatiners become the buildings.
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
Well in that case the volume of equipment would dictate how many buildings you have and these things are a little big to fill with smaller articles and not quite big enough for industrial sized equipment, vehicles or machinery. Plus you're restricted by the size of the door as to what you can move in and out of this thing, so big equipment is defiantly out, unless you propose they disassemble the module, extract the gear then reassemble? Not very practical.
Plus of course half the point of these things is that the walls are interchangeable, so by pre-assembling, you immediately limit what you can do with them.

I think most things come down in standard cargo carriers and those containers are converted into storage sheds for equipment, food, raw materials or even livestock. You can never have too many unused metal boxes, so any excess is hardly a problem.
 

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Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
 
OK, for the modular station, a guy who plays Eve On-line has a sweet idea or two, which can be located here:

Eve On-line Player Modular Station Design Thread

The guy's put a lot of effort into it, it's a shame CCP won't take it on. Anything there useful for your modular colony idea? Like multiple connector points maybe??
 

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Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
 
I think we've already covered those ideas AKB, nothing new to see there. Indeed it has a flaw, in that it is very 2-dimensional. A large station ends up covering 1km by 1km by 20m high, rather than being able to extend vertically with stacking.

Regarding getting the modular housing systems to the ground, I think there will be some ship capable of landing and depositing cargo up to a certain size. I'm designing one to do that, anyway, since it's damned usful. Simply transporting modules to the surface might work, but it might be beyond the reach of non-starfleet vessels and we also should take into account that certain planetary conditions may make it impossible.

As for dropping them from space using some sort of aerobraking or thrusters or whatever, it doesn't really smack of Starfleet to me. It's more of a quick and dirty military way of doing something, not what the ubertechy good guys would do. You also have to think about what happens when they hit dirt, since you'd need to be an exceptionally good shot to drop each cabin in perfect alignment with its neighbours so that they can be joined correctly.

Dropping and converting tanks or cargo pods is a good idea, one that NASA and others have considered before for lunar and martian bases, but that's a bit too frontiersman for Starfleet. I certainly think they'd convert stuff they had lying around, just as Rev suggested, but its a workaround and not a designed solution. Cargo containers being used as storage bays or hangars once they've been emptied of their original cargo is great though.
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Reverend:
Well in that case the volume of equipment would dictate how many buildings you have and these things are a little big to fill with smaller articles and not quite big enough for industrial sized equipment, vehicles or machinery. Plus you're restricted by the size of the door as to what you can move in and out of this thing, so big equipment is defiantly out, unless you propose they disassemble the module, extract the gear then reassemble? Not very practical.
Plus of course half the point of these things is that the walls are interchangeable, so by pre-assembling, you immediately limit what you can do with them.

I think most things come down in standard cargo carriers and those containers are converted into storage sheds for equipment, food, raw materials or even livestock. You can never have too many unused metal boxes, so any excess is hardly a problem.

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Well, with interchangable walls (the hull of the containers) you can still do your modular buildings.
Really, looking back, we're looking at this from a non-trek POV: replicators can easily dis-assemble and rebuild to suit whatever is needed.
All the interior volume of the container might be filled with raw materials for the replicators- even the Standardized cargo cotainers might be broken down to make the buildings themselves- leaving no waste or empty packaging.
I dont know as Trek needs any livestock- non-meat eaters and all that, or reprocessed portien eaters which can be soy (or whatever plant they use) based.
All needed plants and imported microorganisims can be stored in stasis or grown from seedlings quickly with trek tech.

Heck, in some instances, imported cargo might be minimalized to replicators, people and something orbital for weather, comms and sensors- a colony ship might just be a large transport for people and personal effects and probably some tech not easily replicated like shuttles and exotic (or non-native to the planet) metals.
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
Like I said, I prefer not to design things around an over-dependence on replicators. As for livestock, it has more practical function than just a source of food, especially if it's a terraformed world.
 

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Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
 
Agreed, they'd be coming to colonise, not visit. Livestock, or the domestication of existing species, would be a big step towards that. Over-reliance on one bit of technology could lead to disaster for a fledgling colony, and I dont think the type of people who would undertake that sort of journey would be the type of people who would use replicators for every need.
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
They could just "domesticate" the native sentients and make them do all the hard labor.


Works for the Cardies, anyway.
 

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Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
 
What would be farmed on a planet like Mars, other than hydroponic goodies? I can see some planets that might require replicator to survive. That or augment style [Khan Voice]superior minds that allow them to survive.[/Khan Voice]

With the aparent plethora of unexplored M class, or M class like planets in the ST universe, is there any point in colonising the more difficult planets at all, other than for military reasons?
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
Depends on the species that's colonising it; the Federation ain't all about the humans.
The problem with most M-Class worlds is that there's usually someone already there, or the local fauna would cause too much inconvenience (I assume Federation law prohibits extermination of indigenous species, no matter how bothersome or cute.)
I imagine the vast majority of colony worlds are either just barely M-Class, or young M-Class words or they're similar (L-Class) that have been terraformed. Of course that's just for humans and similar species, other worlds may be perfectly suitable for the methane breathers, sub-arctic type races etc, etc.
 

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Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
 
In addition to who was doing the colonizing, I imagine there would be different payloads depending on what kind of a place they were headed to. Obviously you wouldn't need the barn-module if you're to be setting down in a non-breathable atmosphere. Maybe that gets back to multiple trips. I really like the idea of the hexes and that the hexes have interconnecting bits, but Jason is right on about packing them as containers first and using them as buildings second. Seems more efficient/appropriate.

I do like the idea of there being some modules that are pre-configured/loaded, however. One could be a powerplant, life-support (sewage too!) engineering and foundation-making hex. First one down and it helps pour/mix/fuse a solid foundation for the rest of the colony.

(Incidentally, nice pic Axeman. Very inspirational.)
 

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Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
 
You probably do need the barn pieces, just configure the inside differently. The less habitable the outside the more inside space you're going to need.
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
Yeah, using these things as storage containers really isn't as practical as you might think. First and foremost is the necessity to disassemble them in order to get the cargo out, then since you only have six walls to work with, wait until you've unpacked several more before you have a sufficient selection of wall types to work with. So you'd be in a constant process of unpacking and disassembly then gradually building your complex. It's a needlessly complicated way to do things. Makes much more sense for the hex-mods components to be stacked up on pallets and be taken as needed. As for saving internal volume, the hex-mods are disassembled so there's no internal volume to speak of and the standard cargo carriers, like the ones seen in TMP are only a few millimetres thick, so again, no excess volume to speak of.
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
How about bringing only the bare essentials of what you need, and literally building the rest? In "This Side of Paradise", the colonists built their town to look much like an early 20th century town, compelte with wooden barns and houses. When Janeway and Chakotay got stuck on a planet as a result of a mosquito bite, Chuckles was about to build a cabin. And so on - IMO, a colony should not bring more than their immediate needs, and use the land to build whatever else they'll need. If you bring livestock, then a barn is a must; if you're raising livestock from embryos, then build one when you get there from wood you chop down (which you'll likely have to do anyway) or bricks you can kiln from the local elements. In "Red Mars", they ended up building airtight brick buildings as they went along (even adding the fibres from their descent stage parachute for strength) instead of relying on the habitats they brought with them.

The point is, would a colony be built with the express purpose of starting what would eventually become a srawling metropolis? Or, for at least the lifespan of the original colonists, should it be built to their needs? How long will the colonists be garunteed to survive until they can start building their own stuff without the aid of whatever they bring with them? A year? Ten?

Mark
 

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Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
It's Star Trek: Firefly!

(Sorry, I couldn't help it...)
 

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Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
 
It does make sense that they'd use local materials (again, where possible), but I suspect that they'd want a little shelter at least for starters while they are building that up and figuring it out. It's been awhile since I read Red Mars, but I thought that at least initially they used the Mars bricks to shore-up, supplement and protect the habitats they brought with them. Like from micrometeorites and dust, etc.

I keep thinking about the station component, and while I adore the idea and I definitely see that as being an eventual need, a semi-capable ship would tend to serve all the purposes a station would. Like, quite adequately and have the advantage of mobility. I mean unless it was an orbital elevator or something, (but that's more an epochal development and not the sort of thing you tote along to a new planet, isn't it?)

Incidentally how many colonists are we talking about? 40? 300? 1000? Because the immediate needs for those colonies are going to be drastically different.
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
The spec says "no less that 500".

As colonists that only bring the bare essentials so they can be self sufficient on their new planet; people like that would just get a standard transport, load it with medicine, food and tools and take off for a politically neutral planet. They wouldn't be signing on aboard one of these purpose built colony ships.
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by MinutiaeMan:
It's Star Trek: Firefly!

(Sorry, I couldn't help it...)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Axeman 3D:
I think we've already covered those ideas AKB, nothing new to see there. Indeed it has a flaw, in that it is very 2-dimensional. A large station ends up covering 1km by 1km by 20m high, rather than being able to extend vertically with stacking.

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Hmm, I hadn't noticed that about the design before...however it's certainly a step up from what Eve currently has...and a different connecting module could be designed/made...

LOL, livestock...reminds me of that TNG ep where they had some "backward" passengers who tried to light a fire in the cargo bay...and the daughter that took lead on most things...was VERY HOT! I wouldn't mind being stuck on a planet with her!
 

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