This is topic I saw Return of The King! in forum General Sci-Fi at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.


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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Not since I was five years old and say Star Wars in the theatre has anything come close to this movie experience.

I never read the trilogy of LOTR books but as a movie fan I'd saw this one was as good as the first two films combined.
I read about the scene with sauroman in the Shire that was not filmed for this movie and how some Toliken fans are pissed, but I dont think it would have worked well in the movie at all: there was probably 45 minutes of movie AFTER the battle was won already.
Tomorrow I have to watch the expanded Two Towers so I can see ROTK again on Thursday!

It was that good.


.....not for anachrophobics though.
 

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Posted by WizArtist (Member # 1095) on :
 
Itsy Bitsy Spider......

I have read the series several times and there is little that was deleted that would have made any real impact to the story. I haven't seen ROTK yet, but if Sean Aston's portrayal of Samwise is as good as the first two, he should win an Oscar and be enshrined forever in the lores of Hero-dom.
 

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Posted by Alshrim Dax (Member # 258) on :
 
I'll be seeing it this afternoon around 4pm EST.
I'll post my review when I get home!

CAN'T WAIT!!!
 

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Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
 
The only thing about the movie that kind of irked me was that it could have ended about five times. After Aragorn's coronation, right when everyone bows, it could have ended. When they got back to the Shire and were in the pub, it could have ended there. Anyways, I guess its good that it ended the way it did. I suppose if it had ended after the coronation, we wouldn't have the nifty scene of departing for the Grey Havens. All in all, it was a very, very good movie. I heartily enjoyed it. I intend to watch the extended versions of FotR and TTT over the Christmas break and go see it again.
 

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
Jason: "It was that good...not for anachrophobics though."

Well, I guess there could be a phobia against movies with a non-chronological scene order...maybe like in "Usual Suspects"?

Oh, and the people you're talking about should stay the HELL away from Tarantino, that's for sure! Pulp Fiction would be bloody murder!

As for anachronisms in general, I guess the "LOTR"-movies could have lots of words that slipped through, like "Hell!" or other out-of-place expressions. I know writers writing fantasy novels have to be very careful not to use words that are specific, even esoteric, if you will, to our history as such.

Yep...*leans back in chair*, lotta things that can go wrong in moviemaking.
Though I haven't actually seen any anachrophobe scream and run panicked towards the exit just 'cause some Gondorians and rangers are speaking american, I mean some things you just have to let slide, right? Am I right?

Hell, if we're going to be really "chronologically" accurate we'd have to graft thicker facial bones and added hairgrowth to actors if we're doing any film taking place in biblical times or earlier, 'cause our genes were totally different back then, sheesh!

No Jason, there is a thing called "suspend all disbelief", it sounds like your friends would do well to learn that before going off half-cocked in the cinemas. Maybe in a Twelve-step program or something.
 

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Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
 
"The only thing about the movie that kind of irked me was that it could have ended about five times."

Yeah, there was a slight Tel-Sellish "But wait! There's more! Stay tuned!" undercurrent flowing through it. Kudos to Jackson for not shooting a REALLY scopic infomercial. B)

So now that the LotR trilogy is complete, how do you guys think people will come to regard the films in twenty years? Will they ever become as ingrained in popular culture as, say, the classic Star Wars movies are now? Lucas has had his share of detractors over the years, but he also had the advantage that he couldn't be censured for not sticking to a work of literature word for word...
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Nim:
Hell, if we're going to be really "chronologically" accurate we'd have to graft thicker facial bones and added hairgrowth to actors if we're doing any film taking place in biblical times or earlier, 'cause our genes were totally different back then, sheesh!

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Not to interupt the delicious comedy, but, are you sure?
 

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Posted by WizArtist (Member # 1095) on :
 
Well, I feel in twenty years PJ will re-release all three films with new & updated CGI shots that will be "The Way I Had Really Imagined It".

And by that time ticket prices will be $17 per show. Which of course will lead to his release of the Prequel....The Silmarillion.


 

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Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
 
I thought The Hobbit was the "prequel" and The Silmarillion was the continuation? Or am I being fooled again?

This reminds me, I still haven't fulfilled my 1999 New Year's Resolution of reading The Lord of the Rings. Although, I did try to check out The Fellowship of the Ring from the library a couple months ago. No student ID equals no checkouts.
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
I don't think The Lord of the Rings will have the cultural weight, as a set of films, that Star Wars does, because it is not, so far as I am aware, being embraced by an entire generation of children, for any number of reasons. (What was the market for huge kid-friendly films in 1977?) It's those children who make Star Wars what it is. LotR isn't selling a million action figures of That One Orc Over In The Corner. I also suspect that Star Wars as a phenomenon is going to die when we do, and scarcely be remembered apart from the effects it had on Hollywood marketing, which were large, and which again The Lord of the Rings is not having. (The blockbuster is already invented.)

Though I am skeptical that films are going to have lifespans much beyond their audience in general. One can, with some small effort, enjoy a novel written in the very late 19th century, and with some good repackaging and a media push you can even make it sell well. But good luck getting people into theaters to watch Train Moving Down Tracks. Film is too of the moment, I think, maybe. I don't know. Anyway, my point is that LotR is three good sf/f movies in a landscape piled high with them. (Well, with sf/f movies in general, of which I suggest not all are absolutely without value.) Star Wars was three, um...well, movies I thought were the greatest things ever when I was a kid, which hit a scene almost totally devoid of their like. In other words, if I filmed the greatest epic film ever tomorrow, it still wouldn't be the first epic film ever, and people's default reaction, before seeing it, would be "Hey, another one of those epic films," instead of "My mind is blown by the very idea!"

But that's all completely apart from actual questions of quality. I submit that it is better, in the long run, to be good rather than to be an icon, as iconic status is more culturally dependant than quality. Maybe. Or maybe not.
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
The question of "dating" in general is a tricky one. As far as I can tell, people are more aware of things that will date a piece of work, and will try and avoid them. Did songs from the 50s sound as dated in the 70s as an 80s song does today? Does early TNG look as dated as TOS did back in 1984? And to run with that later comment, why does season 1 and 2 of TNG look so much more outdated than season 3, despite there only being a season difference.

As for Star Wars, I'm not sure it will die when we die. I lived in a house with 3 guys who were 3 years younger than me, and none of them had really seen Star Wars outside of Christmas repeats when they were young, and they hadn't seen the SE in the cinema either. Once, they decided that they were finally going to watch them, and we watched the trilogy over a week or two. And then, when episode II came out, they were as excited as I was. My 8 year old nephew was excited when he saw it too, and loves Yoda.

I hate people forcing their likes onto younger generations, but there are a lot of children who are quite happy to embrace Star Wars.

But, er, anyway, to go back to the topic, Return of the King was very good. Yes.
 

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Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
 
Saw it today. Funny thing happened though: Halfway through the battle at Minos Tirith, the movie started getting warped, and cut out altogether at one point for ten minutes. Nonetheless, everyone was pretty pissed off at this, so we all ended up getting free movie vouchers, which are also refundable too, so I can get my money back (couldn't do it on that day, they have some sort of policy for same day refunds on vouchers.....)

As for the movie itself, it was good. The only two complaints that I have is 1) the story arc regarding Saruman I consider to be incomplete even though he was "defeated" in TTT, and 2) goshdarnit the ending is just too long!!!!
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 

"The question of 'dating' in general is a tricky one."

You're telling me!

ZING!

Sorry.
 

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Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Nim:
Hell, if we're going to be really "chronologically" accurate we'd have to graft thicker facial bones and added hairgrowth to actors if we're doing any film taking place in biblical times or earlier, 'cause our genes were totally different back then, sheesh!

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quote:

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Originally posted by WizArtist:
Legolas and Gimli set sail with five passengers for a three hour tour.....a three hour tour....

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*WHACK!!!*
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
There's Gilligan,
The Skipper, too,
The woodland elf,
And his dwarf...
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Giligan would be riddled with arrows within the week.
 

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Posted by Paladin181 (Member # 833) on :
 
I like Minas Morgul, but with the emerald green coloring it looked like Oz to me.

I also thought Denathor should have just burned on the pyre like the hopeless fool he was, the whole point of the book is Hope and his character shows us what happens to characters without hope and is given no pity in the book. He should have just laid there and burned. But I guess when you have a huge cliff with a big opening on the end of it, you have to throw somebody off of it...
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
Besides, it looked cool. The best of all the "Oh my god look how high up we are" sequences.

I do suspect that no-one on Middle Earth suffers from vertigo.
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
Saw it, loved it.
Didn't really feel like three and a half hours though, which is an achievement unto itself.
Actually I think I spotted several places where the obligatory DVD extended edition would be filling in some holes.

I'm glad that I decided not to read the books ahead of time, mainly because I hate it when I already know how a story is going to end.

*SPOILER*

The part where Frodo lost his finger had me totally shocked, although I'm not sure why. All things considered he got off lightly.

RE: Denathor's firely plunge. I actually remember thinking to myself when I first saw the master shot of Minas Tirith, "I bet someone is going to fall off the edge of that cliff at some point".

Not to accuse the filmmakers of making shameless allegory, but did anyone else get a 'charge of the light brigade' vibe from Farimir's counter attack on Osgiliath?
...and then there's Aragorn's 'Braveheart' speech, but I suppose that can be forgiven under the circumstances.
 

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Posted by Paladin181 (Member # 833) on :
 
Don't forget the D-Day like landing of the Orc, I half expected Orcs to parachute from the skies dropped by Nazgul and Gondorian AA guns raking the skies.
 

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
Just came home from watching it, how I ache of sweet sorrow.

I surprised myself at one point, when Eowyn (Dernhelm) scoops up Merry, the "scrawny-bickering-puritan" in me actually sighed and rolled eyes at Merry's comment.
My brother turned and said "Oh come on, what is it this time?"
I said that her identity was to be kept a secret, as Dernhelm, until they arrive at the battle!

After that, the last shards of what was left of my petty "book-phile" side fell silent, at the thunder of the charging Mumakil.

And they DID catapult the decapitated Gondorian soldiers' heads!
And you DID get to see Frodo's torn-off finger!

I'm still recovering from the fact that they pulled off the Gollum/Frodo struggle and came up with a satisfactory solution to Gollum's death.
I was at ease.
At the coronation I actually tried to get "in the mood" in order to be touched by it, but something was missing.
I started worrying maybe it wouldn't get any better than this.
Then they bowed to the hobbits.
"Oh, there it is..."
At Sam's wedding, my nose started bleeding from the pressure of holding back the tears (just a few seconds though).
Finally, at the Grey Havens, I couldn't possibly hold back anymore, nor did I want to.
Ever since I finished the last page of the book I had been waiting for this.

It was so cool of the hobbits to stay somber at the Green Dragon, and make a silent toast in remembrance of all that had transpired.
I really appreciated that.

Also, I hadn't expected them to follow the book as close as they did in the last scene, and for that I will be eternally grateful to the moviemakers.

At last the three companions turned away, and never again looking back they rode slowly homewards;
and they spoke no word to one another until they came back to the Shire, but each had great comfort in his friends on the long grey road.
...But Sam turned to Bywater, and so came back up the Hill, as day was ending once more.
And Rose drew him in...and put little Elanor upon his lap.
He drew a deep breath. 'Well, I'm back,' he said.
 

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 

 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Eowyn has the single sharpest blade in all of moviedom: that, or that dragon's neck was made from jell-o.
I was pretty suprised she was that tough, really.
Her brother (whom I think of as "horsehead") runs around for a while looking for a suitable target for his spear: of course when he finds one....
 

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
You'd be surprised ho effective steel is against flesh.
A heavy stroke from a sharp one-hand sword can cut the neck on a cow or horse with ease.
 

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Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
 
Said with far too much confidence for my tastes.
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Nim:
You'd be surprised ho effective steel is against flesh.
A heavy stroke from a sharp one-hand sword can cut the neck on a cow or horse with ease.

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My Nagitata can lop a pumpkin in two with ease but that thing's ......well, I guess I just expected a tiny bit of Samug's toughness in it's scaly hide.
 

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
Well she did have to chop about three times to have anything to show for it, but basically it was a big flying iguana-swine yes.

Besides, it was word-for-word what happened in the book. Even down to the splintering of her shield, and Merry's stabbing his low-left knee. Perfect.
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
Now that the movie's out, might I ask if there are listings of what did and didn't go in? If someone could put a percentage on it, how much material could be considered "missing"?

Mark
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
I really don't think that's a good or even useful way of looking at it, or that what you're asking for can be quantified in anything approaching a meaningful way. What sorts of things count, anyway? Plot events? Descriptions? "Feels?" "Themes?"
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
I guess I'm mostly after main plot events more than everyone else, plus things like characters left out, character switches (in terms of them doing stuff they didn't do before, like Arwen), and so forth...

Mark
 

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
Well the Scouring was left out (duh!) which I give my blessing.
After the grand events finishing the movie, the feeling of closure, sorrow of departure and happiness at the fortune of the survivors would've been muddled and just cloven-in-two by another action sequence with some petty characters that die after a short debate.
The end as it was, had a beautiful pulse which was kept unbroken, immediately from Frodo & Sam's rescue to Sam's final dialogue.

As I said in my short review, the character Dernhelm was also left out, as it probably would've been hard to make Eowyn look like a man with a manly voice, not to mention confusing to some of the audience if it had succeeded.

The parley with the Mouth of Sauron was missing, maybe it will be added in the Extended Edition, it's certainly possible.
It was more of a "fun" thing anyway, not really critical to the scene at the Black Gate, the result was the same.

The Palant�r's seductive nature wasn't adressed (as defense to Pippin), so the "treachery" of Pippin, speaking with Sauron as a result, was blamed solely on his inquisitive nature.
But he was redeemed later anyway, so...

But I agree with Sol, listing some anal percentage of how much Peter Jackson allegedly failed in satisfying the "purists" is unjust to the movie as a separate work.
It says after all in every opening credit and end credit of the movies, "BASED ON THE BOOK BY JRR TOLKIEN".
The movie trilogy held true to the mechanics and integrity within itself.

Oh yes, Aragorn's "Messiah"-style wonders in the Houses of Healing were absent too.
Though I think the Ext.Ed. will at least show the meeting of Faramir and Eowyn in HoH.

The next time I see ROTK in the movies I will bloody well stay to after the end credits, where the trailer of the Ext.Ed. is shown.
 

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Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
 
Considering that the initial cut of ROTK came out at 4 hours and 15 minutes, there's a lot of room for additions. Me, I would have loved to see Faramir as the last Steward of Gondor asking to surrender his office, as well as asking the citizens of Minas Tirith if Aragorn should enter the city and be king. Little stuff, I admit, but I always liked that scene.

I do know that Jackson did film scenes in the Houses of Healing, so that should be in the dvd version.
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
I know nothing about the books, but wasn't the big-scary spider originally in The Two Towers, and not ROTK?
 

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Posted by Alshrim Dax (Member # 258) on :
 
Yip Psy - it was... and the confrontation between Gandalf and Saruman was left out too... hopefully will be shown in the ext. edition - cuz that was one scene i looked forward to seeing.
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
Some reports are already saying that the extended edition of the third film will be over FIVE HOURS LONG.

I'm not trying to directly compare the book and the movie, which is indeed pointless - I was at a sci-fi con this summer, and there was a "Rings" panel where people trying to do that were told to sit down and shut up. What I'm getting at is not WHY anything was left in or out, but simply WHAT and WHO were out. For example, some guy named Tom Bombadil was not in the movies, and apparently played a minor part in the book. Arwen did some stuff attributed to another character that was left out, etc. I'm looking for that, which is more quantifyable than the whys.

Mark
 

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
Mark Nguyen: "...some guy named Tom Bombadil..."

Um, judging by your wording, have you even read the books? If not, why do you care?

Anyway, to answer your question, here are two splendid guides, the first about "Fellowship of the Ring", the other about "The Two Towers", highlighting the major differences between the corresponding book and movie, in a neat list.

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/movie.html
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/twotowers.html

They are quite fun to read and very thorough, though I of course recommend you read the books instead, it gives you the details in a more chronological and relevant form.
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
I'm an anime fan! Anime fans don't READ!

While I'm not proud to be the only person in my group of friends that hasn't read the book, it's still an interesting distinction. It's also on my books to read list. Eventually. After anime. Yeah. Anyway, thanks for answering my quesitons.

Mark
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
How can you read anime?
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
I believe the Mouth of Sauron stuff was filmed, anyway.

I haven't seen the movie yet.
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by PsyLiam:
How can you read anime?

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Subitles, silly. And don't get me started on the whole sub vs. dub thing, if you know what that is - that's a whole other forum right there.

Okay, I've read over the links Nim sent. Now I *want* to read the books, so I can get the books' picture and see what the Tolkien puritans are telling me...

Mark
 

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
Conversely, criticizing the movies doesn't make one a Tolkien puritan, refusing to read any other books or watch any other movies than Tolkien's makes you a puritan.

So it would actually be in a "puritan"'s best interests to support the movies and what they've done for Tolkien, most of the Elite-Fan wannabes just haven't figured this out yet. In ten years they will, maybe.
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sol System:
I believe the Mouth of Sauron stuff was filmed, anyway.

I haven't seen the movie yet.

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quote:

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quote:
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Originally posted by Sol System:
I believe the Mouth of Sauron stuff was filmed, anyway.

I haven't seen the movie yet.
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Explain this scene to me: it sounds cool and I never read the book.
Some kind of middle-earth Loqutus?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lee:
Bruce Spence, also in Dark City.

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