In brief: Galactica is more than happily surprised when the Battlestar Pegasus shows up. Too bad Adama didn�t order the FTL jump when he had the chance. Long story short, fleet command is taken from Adama by Admiral Cain, who outranks him. She also apparently doesn�t really care to respect the civillian government as evidenced by her snubbing of President Roslin. At first Cain is all, �Oh, everything is cool� � then she�s all, �We�re going to reassign people!� I.E.: Starbuck and Apollo to Pegasus. Later, after Helo and Tyrol intervene when a Pegasus officer tries to rape Sharon Mk II � killing that fat windbag in the process � she moves quickly to bring them back to her ship where she arranges their executions. Adama is really not happy about this and orders his Marines to suit up and head over to Pegasus with a full Viper escort. Cain responds by launching her own, newer, Vipers: she�s got a lot more. That�s where the episode ends. Son of a bitch! January, get here now!
Here�s one big thing I don�t get � a big deal has been made in the way Galactica avoided the Cylon attack. See, the Cylons had access to the Colonial Defense Ministry and were able to sneak �sleeper viruses� into the computer programs that aid the operation of starships and fighters. This is demonstrated early in the miniseries when most of Galactica�s Viper Mark VIIs, preparing to engage Cylon fighters, suddenly experience complete system failure and are promptly destroyed. Aiding in Galactica�s survival were the many older Mark II fighters in her museum exhibit: fueled and armed, the Cylon fighters were unable to activate the sleeper virus and cause them to power down. Yet here we�ve got the Pegasus, and a ton of Mark VIIs in operating condition � I�m presuming that at some point some member of Pegasus� crew deduced what was causing the massive reports of losses and wiped the computer memory of the ship and her fighters. Still, it seems odd that the ship could survive even one encounter with the Cylons after their blind FTL jump.
Is there a decent member of the Pegasus� crew? They all seem like a bunch of stuck up shitbags. I take that back � Fisk seems like a good guy, and a few of the pilots seem okay too, even the CAG (though he�s certainly got an ass-streak). Lt. Thorn certainly doesn�t get any points in my book � I think I know why he enjoys raping Cylonsit�s probably the only way he can get his tiny pecker serviced. I bet his off-duty passions include coercing young female enlisted crew into fucking him. Piece. Of. Shit. I wish he could have suffered a bit, though.
I should explain that Pegasus also had a Cylon aboard � one of the Six models, although we don�t know in what capacity � crewmember? Part of the retrofit team? In any case, it is eventually aluded to that she was used to sexually pleasure the male crewmembers. When Baltar sees her, she looks quite unlike the glamerous Six we�ve all come to know and fear.
There really is quite a contrast between these two ships � most noticeable is the technology level. The Pegasus has sliding doors! I also notice they like to keep their officers and enlisted folk segregated in the CIC. I don�t like the Pegasus � I like the atmosphere of Galactica, what with her manual doors, pressure valves, and un-Star Trek like interior. (According to the video blog of David Eick, many of the Pegasus sets were recycled from a FOX pilot that never made it into production: a remake of Lost in Space).
Chills. Chills at seeing Adama march through Galactica�s corridors on his way to CIC to resolve the situation with Tyrol and Helo. I suppose if Cain was bothering to respect the office of the president, Adama could�ve made an appeal to Roslin to intervene. Regardless, the episode ends with one hell of a cliffhanger: a ton of Pegasus� Viper Mark VIIs, and a handful of Galactica�s Mark IIs, squaring off. Eep!
**
Sci-Fi did an original series Battlestar Galactica marathon a few weeks ago. One of the episodes was �Living Legend�, where Lloyd Bridges played Commander Cain of the Battlestar Pegasus. The end of the episode, Cain committed his ship to a near suicidal run on a Cylon force so that the Galactica and the fleet could escape. Most of Pegasus� fighters were evacuated to Galactica.
So, here�s my predicition for the conclusion: no shots are fired between Vipers for whatever reason � Cylons show up, pilots on both sides are reluctant to fire on each other, Cain heeds her XO�s advice, et al. Helo and Tyrol may well be executed. Apollo, Tyler, and Starbuck return from their mission with info on the mysterious Cylon ship: a joint attack is launched, and Pegasus is heavily damaged. Cain evacuates her fighters to Galactica, which rejoins the fleet, while Pegasus stays and fights to buy the survivors of humanity enough time to escape.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
I wish they had done more shots of Peggy. She appeared to me to be about half again the size of Galactica and probably three times the gross tonnage. She also reminded me more of the original Galactica from certain view.
Cain's story smells. According to her story, the crew was about to disembark and they were about to go through some type of SLEP. My understanding of the way these things occur in our navy, the ship would have allready flown her air group off ship and most non-essential things would have already been offloaded. She said they had already taken a number of nukes and two other BS had been taken out in that first salvo. I don't see how they could possibly get the ship back up and have the powerplant brought online for an FTL jump before they had swallowed a couple of Cylon Nuclear Lozenges. Even more so given the virus. So, what REALLY happened?
Galactica raided a depot, If Cain and the Peggy were running all these constant running battles, where was she getting fuel & ammo? If I were the Cylons and knew there was a rogue BS raiding my supply lines and bases wouldn't they provide sufficient escort to make a raid infeasible?
Cain seemed to have no consideration for the civilian fleet which should have been her first priority. Did I also detect an air of contempt for Adama? Sort of a "Why did you run rather than go kamikaze on the cylons?" mentality.
Did anyone get a better view of the "Special Ship" the Cylons were building? I have a suspician that it is a dummy ship being proffered as bait for what the Cylons know is an aggressive commander. What better way to deal with the problem. Lure in the Peggy and off her once and for all.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
It should be noted that the episode was much longer than usual, and from the commentary the stuff cut included a longer, more detailed interview with Cain about how exactly they survived.
Also, I don't think that big secret Cylon ship was being built. It was just there, a part of the fleet (which, incidentally, I guess we now know was what the Cylons were talking about back in "Final Cut.").
Baltar finally tells Six to do something, rather than the other way around.
Survivors: 49,605.
(This was a great, if unpleasant, episode, but did the Pegasus crew really need to be 100% jerks? Surely things would have turned out the same if it was only, say, 50%? I guess the other mechanic wasn't obviously a jerk. And granted, the Pegasus has no doubt seen vastly different circumstances. Still.)
Anyway, uh, wow.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Oh, and what was up with the synth music at the very beginning? Bad choice.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Is it my imagination, or are the women of this show getting the brunt of the physical abuse?
As for Cain, I think she's long since cracked under the pressure. I wouldn't be surprised if the bit about her blowing her old XO's head off is true.
I noticed in a few scenes they purposely did the opposite as was done in the old "Living Legend" episode. Adama being all for a joint strike and willingly handing over command to Cain spring to mind.
Very brave episode content, especially given the charges of mistreating prisoners that have been leveled at the US & Allied Forces in the last few years. Speaking of which, notice how this time it was the chief who kept his head and Helo was the one kicking off...then when they got to the cell it was the chief who went all Hulk and smashed the Lt's head in...something he obviously didn't intend to be fatal since he visibly sagged when the Marine declared the rapist son-of-a-bitch dead. Nice subtle acting there.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Holy shit, this was one hell of an episode to end the first half of the season on. Even more than the shooting of Adama (because we knew that he would almost certainly survive), this is the kind of thing where we have very little idea of just how the situations will be resolved. Kudos to the writers for that!
I've started listening to Ron Moore's podcast, and he commented that the episode ran 15 minutes too long. Hopefully part of what was cut was some scenes making it clear that not everyone on the Pegasus was a complete jackass (other than the crew chief). IMO the CAG just might not be a jackass -- not only was swatting Starbuck down perfectly deserved and was perfectly in line with military operations, but from the perspective of a man who's taking on new pilots who apparently have major problems with the chain of command, it makes perfect sense that he'd want Apollo to start out slow as a Raptor pilot, get the feel for the new method of operating.
Anyway, to the real meat of the story... their "special" Cylon interrogation methods. Not cool at all. Dramatically, I agree that it was a good development, and I also agree that it's probably something that nutball Humans would do in that kind of situation, but... emotionally, that whole sequence as I and my friends slowly realized just how twisted the Pegasus crew was regarding Cylon prisoners, it was hitting WAY below the belt.
(It also made for a very awkward after-show discussion, considering that a couple of female friends were watching the show with me at the time...)
Honestly? My initial reaction after the end of the show was thinking that the Cylons may just actually be justified in trying to wipe out Humanity. I thought that Adama was horrible for putting the gun to Sharon's head last week, to "explain" why she ended up helping them out (when I'm convinced she was helping anyway). But now.... ugh. I hate to think about it.
As far as explaining how the Pegasus escaped... the podcast explained that the ship's networks had all been shut down for the overhaul, so that explained why the battlestar itself escaped. And since that shipyard was apparently not one of the very first targets (and the lack of a computer shutdown on the Pegasus probably helped them figure out what the Cylons were doing), they might've gotten just a bit of time to get a few reports before they bugged out. But I agree that I don't understand why all the Vipers weren't offloaded before such a long period of deactivation.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Given the survivor count, it looks like the Pegasus has 1752 people aboard. And, given Cain's comment about the over 700 dead in the initial attack, the normal crew must be close to 2500. Do we know how big Galactica's crew would be under normal circumstances?
"Oh, and what was up with the synth music at the very beginning? Bad choice."
The whole score was a bit over the top. Normally, I don't even notice that a TV show or movie has music. This episode, it was like it was the main feature.
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
I think I read or heard somewhere that Galactica's normal crew complement -- if the ship was fully staffed with officers, crew, Marines & a full air wing -- is several thousand. This in keeping with Ron Moore's vision of an aircraft carrier in space -- the real aircraft carriers have crews ranging up to 6,000, I think. I also think I read somewhere -- maybe it was the miniseries audio commentary -- that Galactica only had 2,000 crew aboard during the Cylon attack.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
I hate to make allusions to Voyager, but this reminded me of Equinox. Not too sure yet which battlestar is which, though...
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I'm sure Pegasus will turn out to have sveral dirty secrets, and probably several Cylon infiltrators. If they're not all Cylons, that is. But already being able to identify six of the models kinda puts a crimp in the twelve-model rule.
Cain is almost certainly a loony. And it's taken as read that they know the Colonies have been destroyed, yet they didn't stick around long enough to confirm that. So although they've had to undergo a long period of uncertainty regarding their families back home, really they haven't had to go through the grief process that the Fleet has. So we can't use that as an excuse for the high nutjob quotient in her command. So what the hell are all these types doing in the Colonial Fleet at all, let alone her command? They're all assholes, the replacement XO's a drink-sodden yes-man, and exactly what possible information can be gleaned by having their torturer rape a Cylon?! Presumably the fat fuck volunteered for the role of Cylon Intelligence Officer as an excuse to indulge his predilections. But the Thorn Method obviously left their original test subject catatonic, so why's she letting him go off and try again?! There has to be more going on. . .
So we have to wait nearly 4 months until they start the show again? Weird. And what televisual gems will SciFi be proferring to their viewership in exchange? Some show cancelled from another network - for surely they would be remiss in their duties if they didn't provide the world with more Dead Like Me?
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Lee,
I wonder if there really are only twelve Cylon models. Who is to say that isn't misinformation? I mean, who could've put that note in Adama's quarters? The most likely candidate is a Cylon member of the crew, and who is to say they're being honest? Think of it! The crew thinks there are twelve Cylon models -- they identify all twelve, and boom, models thirteen through fifteen are free to operate in the clear.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Anyone got a screengrab of the Pegasus? I hear the ship is quite a lot larger than Galactica....
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Its hard to get any good shots of the Pegasus, but I managed to get these:
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Oh, that is SO sweet. I am totally envious about the lack of Galactica on Canadian channels. Been avoiding other methods of getting this show in favor of the box sets (Season 1 just came out, right?) but this makes me want to cheat a little.
In many respects, her bulk and complete armor plating make Pegasus look much like the original Galactica... Now we know a bit more what Galactica could have been like in her prime, before they started stripping her armor off. Bigger, bulkier, less sleek. I wonder if her pods retract as well - guessing so?
Anyone have caps of the interiors, especially the CIC, perchance?
Mark
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
As I recall from a while back, it was Number Six herself who said that there were twelve models of Cylon, back during her big exposition scene just before the attack began during the miniseries. And Ron Moore said in one of his podcasts that he'd always intended that Baltar was the one who left Adama the note, but never followed up on that -- probably because that method of revealing information to the rest of the crew was too cheesy and melodramatic.
quote:Originally posted by Lee: the replacement XO's a drink-sodden yes-man
Well, Tigh is a drink-sodden no-man, so what's exactly the difference there?
quote:So we have to wait nearly 4 months until they start the show again? Weird. And what televisual gems will SciFi be proferring to their viewership in exchange? Some show cancelled from another network - for surely they would be remiss in their duties if they didn't provide the world with more Dead Like Me?
Well, historically, SciFi has apparently tried to boost its viewership by focusing on broadcasting its heavy hitters during the networks' off-seasons (especially the summer). But that's becoming less and less of a need, because a lot of people are already moving to cable, and the cable networks get a lot more attention than they used to.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Alrighty. More caps here. 4-17 are CIC, 18 is a hallway, and 19-21 are the fancy dand holding cell for Gina.
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
I'm surprised nobody's commented on how Six reacts to seeing the raped Six in detention on Peggy. She's always so arrogant and divine around Baltar... and practically breaks down and begs for a klenex box.... quite surprising...
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Actually I found it sort hypocritical seeing as how she was involved in that baby factory back on Caprica in which women were being experimented on and forced to have babies against their will.
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mars Needs Women: Actually I found it sort hypocritical seeing as how she was involved in that baby factory back on Caprica in which women were being experimented on and forced to have babies against their will.
i didn't see that episode... Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
The episode was entitled "The Farm" Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Yeah, but that isn't exactly Six, is it? I mean, we don't know if Baltar's Six really exists or is just a figment of his imagination.
All of the same model of Cylons may share the memories of one another, but that doesn't mean Boomer Mk II is responsible for the actions of Boomer Mk I; or that the Six copy on Pegasus is responsibile for the actions of the Number Six copy on Caprica.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Some nice grabs of the Pegasus here. Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Kinda reminds me of a comparison between the old Forrestal class and the new Nimitz class.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The Sci-Fi Channel has never shown Dead Like Me, though. Galactica's timeslot will be filled by its own reruns. (I think they just start from the beginning of the season again.)
And, I hear that the British broadcasts start, like, now, and continue straight through, so that by the time they get around to starting up again in the U.S., you all will be ahead by a few weeks. Not that I have any sources.
After this episode I thought for awhile about rape in TV drama, but I couldn't really gather my thoughts together, beyond thinking that it might be interesting to compare this episode to Jubal Early's threat in Firefly's "Objects in Space."
I guess the problem is that rape, as a symbol, is so. . . serious, so loud, maybe, in this sort of semiotic sense, that unless it's treated properly (and I don't pretend to know what I mean by that; I'm certainly not claiming that Battlestar Galactica didn't), it can unbalance things. If that makes any sense. Put a rape in a story that's not, I don't know, mature enough to really handle it and you get an offensive mess.
But again, that was my brief digression as caused by this episode, and not really about it.
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Woah -- the second season hasn't started in the UK yet?
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: I guess the problem is that rape, as a symbol, is so. . . serious, so loud, maybe, in this sort of semiotic sense, that unless it's treated properly (and I don't pretend to know what I mean by that; I'm certainly not claiming that Battlestar Galactica didn't), it can unbalance things. If that makes any sense. Put a rape in a story that's not, I don't know, mature enough to really handle it and you get an offensive mess.
Yeah. It's not like we didn't already think these Pegasus lads maybe were a bunch of jerks. I suppose it makes it dramatically OK that our heroes may be shooting at them by the next episode, but those scenes were especially disturbing. It's pretty bad when you feel more compassion for the agents of a race who comitted genocide (on a massive scale) than the revengeant survivors of that genocide.
I do get the impression that there is more to Cain's story than meets the eye. I hope that she and her crew do get a chance to redeem themselves in the coming episode(s?).
I found I was thinking about Cain's actions from a corporate raider mentality as far as undermining Adama's support before... well, persumably before either a coup or a liquidation. Something bad anyway.
I think maybe the turnabout would have been more effective had we spent a little more time with the crews re-uniting and making us think this was a positive thing. That despite all we know about human beings, that cooperation would be carrying us towards a suburb of hope. My memory is hazy, but I seem to recall the original series episode had more of that. Maybe that's what those extra 15 minutes did. (And I can tell you that it was the scenes with catatonic captive Six that made the writers think their script would squeeze into that hour.) As it was something was off from the start, and I'm not just talking about the music. You just knew that despite the apparent trippling of their military capacity, somehow this wasn't going to end good. How did the original series episode introduce us to the Pegasus? I just felt like maybe they telegraphed the turn a little too much.
But then maybe I'm just pissy that I have to wait until January. (It'll be interesting to see the Survivor count then.)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
In the OS, the Pegasus' arrival was a big beacon of hope and everyone knew Cain as "the living legend". His crew was fiercely devoted to him, but not exactly fanatical.
Really, that two parter is one of the best (most watchable) episodes in the OS.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
January can't get here fast enough....
Did anyone catch what the Pegasus' number is? The Galactica is BS-75, and they have gold and black patches, while the Pegasus has white and blue patches. That logo was in plain sight everywhere, but I couldn't get a clear enough shot of it.
B.J.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Obviously I'm up-to-date by the miracle of eighth-of-a-byte-flooding, and will have to remain so even if Sky One gets ahead of North America, because I have Freeview and not Sky. I'll still gloat though.
Pegasus is obviously smaller and more compact than Galactica. And now I'm even more reminded of that early Voyager concept with the underslung nacelles, that really looked like the original Galactica.
OK, now, I don't want to come all over Malcolm Reed (if some parts of the fanfic community are to be believed, that's Trip's job), but in my capapcity as weapons expert I noticed Cain's collection of antique pistols, flintlocks or wheel-locks it looked like. This presents problems when we imagine how Colonial culture might have developed while taking into account the number of real-Earth weapons and vehicles we see. . .
Either the original Colonists arrived from Kobol, then reverted to savagery, then had to develop from scratch until they were able to re-discover lost technologies like space travel, FTL drive and Uzis.
Or, everything we see is just something we're meant to suspend disbelief over, like in Star Trek where we hear sound in space, see aliens' lips synching with Universal Translator output, and believe that's really Captain Kirk's hair. That it isn't really a Humvee Starbuck's driving, that sort of thing.
Of course, that opera house on Kobol looked to be of Renaissance-era architecture, so the Colonists could have been of that level of tech and were merely transported to the Colonies by the Gods, whoever they turn out to be.
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: I guess the problem is that rape, as a symbol, is so. . . serious, so loud, maybe, in this sort of semiotic sense, that unless it's treated properly (and I don't pretend to know what I mean by that; I'm certainly not claiming that Battlestar Galactica didn't), it can unbalance things. If that makes any sense. Put a rape in a story that's not, I don't know, mature enough to really handle it and you get an offensive mess.
So you're wondering if maybe they're trivialising one of the most heinous crimes that occurs in our modern world by merely using it to underline how nasty the Pegagsus crew are, or have become? Maybe, although it didn't seem trivialised to me. In fact I thought they did it quite well by not actually revealing Six/Gina had been raped (although I wondered as soon as I saw her condition) but letting us draw our own conclusions once we saw how Sharon was going to be treated. What's the alternative? "Tonight, on a very special Battlestar Galactica. . ?"
After reading the Battlestar Wiki page on this ep, and the deleted scenes detailed therein, it seems safe to say that Cain has gender issues. Just about everyone we saw on the Pegasus was male, she blanked the President who's a woman. . . And while the Galactica women showed revulsion at the idea of even a female Cylon being raped, she obviously doesn't have a problem with it.
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
According to Moore's podcast, btw, there exists an extended "directors cut" of this episode which will be included on the 2nd season box set DVD.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
One thing that wasn't immediately apparent is that Pegasus has FOUR landing bays, stacked over and under, two per side. Overall though, it seems that Pegasus is an entirely different design than Galactica, more akin to a Consitution-Excelsior sort of difference than a Constitution to a Connie-refit.
Mark
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
One thing I've wondered about Galactica is how many hanger bays she has. I mean, the two we know about, one each under the landing strip (does anyone else thing Sharon MK II's cell is in the unused hanger?), but since the ship does utilize elevators to bring the fighters to the hanger deck, there's no reason Galactica couldn't have TWO hanger decks on each pod, one under the other.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
Well, I see I'm not the only one who thought the Pegasus looks more like the old Galactica than the new one does. Neither am I the only one wishing January was already here...
As for why Cain's crew seems to be composed mostly of jerks, well, maybe she had all the decent ones executed on charges of attempted mutiny or something... from the story about the X.O., she's capable of something like that, and it would have left only the loyal fanatics and those who don't dare contradict her. Certainly, this Admiral Cain is very different from the Commander Cain in the original...
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
I think a better comparison might be the difference between a Forrestal and a Nimitz class aircraft carrier. They're both designed for the exact same job, but the Nimitz is newer with recent technology and is more capable. I don't think it could be said that the proposals for the Connie and Excelsior have the exact same requirements.
B.J.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
Hmmm... now that you mention that, I wonder if the difference between both battlestars also goes to the power plant (like the difference between conventional and nuclear in the case of those carriers), explaining why Galactica had to raid that depot for fuel while Pegasus may not have needed it...
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Well, Galactica has 4 big engine pod-thingies while Pegasus has 8 little ones... So maybe there's something different about the drive systems.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Yeah, I guess the old vs. new aircraft carrier is more apt a comparison... They're both battlestars, and serve (served) as the primary instruments of war at their peaks. OTOH, Connie and Galaxy were the primary instruments of exploration, but they weren't really in service simultaneously... Pegasus is hardly a spankin' new ship though, if she was in drydock undergoing SLEP work.
You know, I'm sorta curious if anyone's done a fan CG Galactica with all her armor intact. Would be fun to see her in her prime.
Mark
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Was that (a lack of armor) brought up in the miniseries? Or is it, uh, extra-textual?
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Part of the reason Galactica had to raid the depot is that the fleet was low on fuel -- for all we know, Galactica still had three-quarters of a tank.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Wasn't it a lack of fuel for the Vipers that was the real concern?
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Actually, I think the fleet only had enough gas for two more FTL jumps. I think YOU might be thinking of one of the early 3rd season episodes where the Tillium ships are refusing to refuel Galactica and Lee notes to his pilots that fighter ops might be limited for awhile.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
If he's thinking of one of the early 3rd season episodes, I really need to find out his sources...
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Er. Sorry, I meant to say the 3rd episode of the current season.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
Though supposedly, one of the upcoming episodes deals with a Tyllium ship being sabotaged and the whole fleet having to wait until it's repaired before being able to jump... but that's late 2nd season, not early 3rd.
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Let me be more specific.
In the first season's "Hand of God", the fleet needed Tillium because they were down to 5% fuel reserves -- it's stated enough fuel was left to make two FTL jumps, then they were dead ducks.
In one of the early episodes of this season, Tillium refueling ships refuse to resupply Galactica until the Civillian Government is restored. Lee Adama mentions to his pilots to watch their fuel expendetures because no one knows when they'll be getting topped off.
When I said "one of the early 3rd season episodes", I meant to say "one of the early 2nd season episodes."
Okay, everyone?
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
In the commentary for "You Can't Go Home Again" in the first season, Ronald Moore and David Eick mention that they wish they could have more scenes of Starbuck and Commander Adama and perhaps having them interact on a more equal level.
At which point, they mention that might happen if they end up making her the CEO of...and they basically stop themselves at this point.
However, I ask you, what possible candidates could there be for her to take command?
Only one springs to mind: the Pegasus.
At the point they recorded the commentaries, they had just finished filming "Final Cut." I would like to think they have things more mapped out than that, to be openly discussing the possibility of major plot lines in the timeline that would be necessary. Unfortunately, from all of the commentaries, I get the distinct impression that RDM&Co. is making this up largely as they go along.
So, it's entirely possible that at this point in the production cycle, they're still deciding what the second part of "Pegasus" is going to be, possibly even as I write this, considering they still have several months until air.
Edit: David Eick.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Another possibility is for Tigh to be given command of Pegasus (ack!) with Starbuck as exec on Galactica.
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
Nahh, Adama knows that Tigh can't command on his own, he would never put Tigh in that position and Tigh would never take it.
Although, I am now further intrigued by the dialogue between Adama and Starbuck in "Hand of God" in which the Commander sort-of breaks Starbuck into the habit of standing on the sidelines and watching it all. You get a definite sense of grooming for command as he basically tells her to "get used to it."
I had assumed that with the foreshadowing of this big-bad shadow Cylon ship, that the plot will eventually take the same turn as the original "Pegasus" plotline, with Cain and the Pegasus running a suicide mission to save the rest of the fleet. Now, however, other possibilities float into the mind.
Of course, assuming that any substantial fraction of the Pegasus officer corps survives, one would wonder why they wouldn't be given command instead of a habitually insubordinate lieutenant.
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Of course Adama's comments could have been along the lines of, "If you knee doesn't heal, you'll be planning missions like this from now on."
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Promoting your best pilots out of the cockpit is probably not an ideal solution to your pilot shortage problem.
Where is there a commentary thingy for that episode, by the way? They don't have it listed (or not anymore), and I haven't been bothering to save them from week to week.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
Well, it's still here on their podcast page as usual. Together with the one for episode 209, which hadn't been posted previously...
Oh, and just to throw more wood into the fire: the first spoilers for the second part of the season mention "newly promoted Admiral William Adama"...
Gentlemen, start speculating - we have some 10 weeks to go...
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I mean the episode OnToMars mentioned.
Also, that maybe could have used more spoiler protection.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Yeah. Seriously. I don't mean to be a whiner, but please can we please not talk about things that haven't occured on the series yet. Or put it in a separate thread. I had the arrival of the Pegasus and even Michelle Forbes spoiled for me and now this. I don't like it.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
What is the proper chain of command? Cain should be answering to Roslyn, yet she isn't. Cain was the first to break the chain of command, yet she wasn't called onto the carpet for it.
Roslyn noted that the first priority should have been the fleet, yet she didn't step in and take control.
I thought about this the moment Cain said she was on "detached service." Detached from what? The Colonies are destroyed and she's with the only surviving representatives (that she knows of and ignoring the gurellias on the Colonies). She was no longer detached.
I don't see the Pegasus surviving. It's a shame too. I think they could have had some really good episodes but I think having two surviving Battlestars kinda mucks up the works. It deviates more from the original and it gives the Fleet more teeth. Lessens the threat of survivial.
No, the Pegasus is going to be destroyed or "disappear" like TOS. Cain is going to be heralded as a hero or martyr.
Oh, I wouldn't put it past Adama to put Tigh in command of the Pegasus. Adama seems reluctant to remove poorly performing officers. No court will be conveined for the Gideon massacre. No inquiry. Nothing. It's all going to be forgiven and forgotten. He is even allowing an officer who pulled a gun on Colonial officers to continue in the role as CAG (well, until Cain reassigned him).
An interesting plot line could have revolved around Tom Zarek's reaction to the Pegasus arrival. After all, he's the one who is fond of controlling the guns.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Reading the bit about Zarak, I immediately thought that she could come from the same Colony as him, and have known him in her idealistic youth. But that's the plot of the B5 ep "Spider in the Web."
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
I agree on the spoiler point. It's one thing to speculate wildly without actually using sources or having any basis in actual evidence but it's another thing entirely to run around actually talking about with some certainty.
(Phrased awkwardly purposely for the sake of irony)
The episode in question is "You Can't Go Home Again," where Starbuck crashes on the planet and captures the Cylon raider to get home. The commentary, however, is not the podcast. The first several episodes with commentary are more traditional with David Eick, RDM, and a third person whose name escapes me at the moment recording commentary specifically for the DVD set. "Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down" is the first episode there is a podcast, at which point the DVD commentary changes to that.
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
quote:Originally posted by HerbShrump: Oh, I wouldn't put it past Adama to put Tigh in command of the Pegasus. Adama seems reluctant to remove poorly performing officers. No court will be conveined for the Gideon massacre. No inquiry. Nothing. It's all going to be forgiven and forgotten. He is even allowing an officer who pulled a gun on Colonial officers to continue in the role as CAG (well, until Cain reassigned him).
I think that's a bit harsh on Adama - I think perhaps that he would prosecute and remove these people in ordinary circumstances, but he knows that these aren't ordinary circumstances and he can't, so he just gets on with it. If he prosecuted and jailed Lee, what would be the benefit to society? Justice would have been done yes, but a fleet that needs defending would have been down one fighter pilot. Same with Tigh: they would be down an knowledgeable combat officer with years of tactical experience under his belt. Justice is fine and dandy when you have a robust society operating, but when you're down to the last dregs and you have people who cannot be replaced and are absolutely essential, then you have to be a little more pragmatic.
The bind Adama is in (and the colonial society as a whole) is that with under 50,000 people left, everyone is essential. Zarek's prisoners got jobs to do, and they have precious few trained military officers as it is without slamming the ones they do have in the brig. It's necessity, not nepotism, that drives Adama sometimes.
Maybe if/when they ever reach a safe haven, there could be some accounting for actions taken in the flight from the Cylons...might be interesting. Something I would like to have seen on DS9 and Voyager but never did - Sisko being called to account for his action in "In the Pale Moonlight" or someone, ANYONE at the end of Voyager to say "Hang on, aren't half of you lot wanted criminals?"
FD
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Let's not bring the Maquis into it. In my opinion the whole idea was wasted and misused right from its inception as a B-story for The Boy. But to play devil's advocate a minute, what would be the point in treating them as criminals? Whatever crimes they commited were seven years in the past, and it's even possible that many of the Maquis' actions that the Federation might take issue with - those ones that led to a de-stabilisation in the Cardassian regime, that led Dukat to seek the aid of the Dominion, that led to the Dominion War - took place after Chakotay & Co. were taken out of play. In the meantime they've become a credit to the Federation (barring the odd hypnosis-induced takeover attempt, the Cardassian mole, her traitorous buttboy, and Wormtongue). I'm not sure if any of the Maquis would be offered permanent commissions in Starfleet upon their return (or even if they'd accept them), but I think overall that their good publicity value would checkmate any attempts by any by-the-book overly-legalistic Starfleet assholes (of which we've seen many, many examples) to charge them.
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
quote:I think that's a bit harsh on Adama - I think perhaps that he would prosecute and remove these people in ordinary circumstances, but he knows that these aren't ordinary circumstances and he can't, so he just gets on with it. If he prosecuted and jailed Lee, what would be the benefit to society? Justice would have been done yes, but a fleet that needs defending would have been down one fighter pilot. Same with Tigh: they would be down an knowledgeable combat officer with years of tactical experience under his belt. Justice is fine and dandy when you have a robust society operating, but when you're down to the last dregs and you have people who cannot be replaced and are absolutely essential, then you have to be a little more pragmatic.
That's clearly not the intention though. The idea is that Adama is a loose commander and was well before the attack. Tigh and Starbuck were drunk and fist-happy, respectively well before the Colonies were wiped out. Adama let it go then because the ship itself was on her way out and he knew that the likelyhood of Galactica facing any real, military combat situation was highly unlikely.
Now, on the otherhand, he's faced with the situation you described. But make no mistake, Adama has these imperfect people because of the way he ran things before the Attack.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
Why are they doing this to us?
"Hello, it seems that we've accidentaly switched two of your battlestars - the one you named Pegasus is actually Galactica and ivce-versa"
In other words, yes, I'm in "Pegasus looks more like original Galacticathan new Galactica herself" camp
And yes, I can't wait to see conclusion of this episode. Let's all run fast in one direction, maybe whole Earth will start spinning faster Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
quote:That's clearly not the intention though. The idea is that Adama is a loose commander and was well before the attack. Tigh and Starbuck were drunk and fist-happy, respectively well before the Colonies were wiped out. Adama let it go then because the ship itself was on her way out and he knew that the likelyhood of Galactica facing any real, military combat situation was highly unlikely.
Adama was close to retirement, that's true, as was his ship, so he did run things a little more informally than he otherwise might have, but I don't think he was a loose commander - and certainly not a bad one. The fact that his ship survived the attack, survived over a year of constant engagements with the Cylons, herded 50,000 people safely through enemy territory and managed to find/raid supplies as needed, speaks to his ability as a commander and the abilities of the people under his command. It also points to him being pretty damn good at his job.
Tigh was a drinker under Adama's command, that's true - but as for Starbuck, where does the "fist happy" thing come from, the time she hit Tigh? If it's that you mean, even Tigh admitted that he turned the table over first - Starbuck was just defending herself. And she reported to the Brig herself, organised (with Tyrol) the transfer of the Mark II fighters to the landing bay that wasn't a gift shop, conducted recon, combat missions, everything under the sun...not the hallmarks of a terrible officer. A hotheaded one yes, but a bad one? No.
Adama ran the ship informally, but he wasn't a bad commander. And if you need a comparison just look at Nelena Cain - someone on the other side of the formality scale, and look at the crew she ended up with. If those two are my choices, I will pick Adama's slightly more informal style of command any time.
quote:Now, on the otherhand, he's faced with the situation you described. But make no mistake, Adama has these imperfect people because of the way he ran things before the Attack.
No, Adama has imperfect people because people are imperfect by their very nature, that is what it means to be human after all. To suggest otherwise would be to say that if Adama was more of a hardass the people serving under him would suddenly become something contrary to human nature.
Adama doesn't need the people under him to be perfect - he just needs them to be good at their jobs. You could be a complete asshole and still be good at your job, remember.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I hadn't even considered, OnToMars, that you were refering to the DVDs. Weird (on my part).
(It seems to me that, regardless of the technical legalities, the popular public perception of the Maquis would be indelibly altered by the Dominion War. Before it, the Maquis are dangerous and destablizing radicals. Afterwards, they're radicals, yes, but ones who nevertheless saw the real enemy years before it became apparent. It also helps that most of them are now safely dead.)
And who says Lee is guilty of anything? They've glossed over it, and probably rightly so, considering their situation, but Adama clearly had no legal right to remove the president, and thus Lee was upholding his vow to the Articles of Colonization.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
quote:Originally posted by OnToMars: Adama has these imperfect people because of the way he ran things before the Attack.
Well, his ship was about to be turned into a museum. I'm guessing the Colonial fleet assigned him some hard-luck cases (Lee Adama, excepted, not being 'assigned' to him at all) hoping maybe he'd iron them out, but if not, they wouldn't be in a position to do much harm. I think it's fair to assume that while capable, competent officers, these were not the cream of the Colonial crop. Hooray for ragtag.
Which isn't to say that you don't have a point. He does run an surprisingly loose ship. Seems to work.
quote:Originally posted by FawnDoo: ...his ship survived the attack, survived over a year of constant engagements with the Cylons, herded 50,000 people safely through enemy territory and managed to find/raid supplies as needed...
Er, so has it been a year?
Posted by Trimm (Member # 865) on :
This is a really minor little thing, but I thought i was a neat little FX thing. When the Pegasus is launching her vipers at the end, you can see her guns training out towards the Galactica.
Oh, and the whole thing with PegaSix just goes to show you that people can be as sick and depraved as the Cylons. Which was prolly the whole point.
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
quote:Originally posted by FawnDoo: Adama was close to retirement, that's true, as was his ship, so he did run things a little more informally than he otherwise might have, but I don't think he was a loose commander - and certainly not a bad one. The fact that his ship survived the attack, survived over a year of constant engagements with the Cylons, herded 50,000 people safely through enemy territory and managed to find/raid supplies as needed, speaks to his ability as a commander and the abilities of the people under his command. It also points to him being pretty damn good at his job.
His ship survived the attack because it was the oldest, most unadvanced one in the fleet. Adama and crew got lucky and there was absolutely no extraordinary skill involved in their survival. The whole point of Galactica is that it isn't the Enterprise and they're not the creme of the crop on the flagship.
And it's become quite clear now that the Cylons' true intent is not to destroy the RTF, since they clearly know where they are (per "Final Cut") and, according to Cain, have been following them since the Attack. So I would say Adama's (and Roslin's for that matter) ability to keep the fleet alive against this hell-bent enemy is not quite the feat it seems.
Now I'm not saying this means they're not a good crew, or that I don't absolutely love each and every character and actor (except for Boomer/Grace Park, not really a big fan), because I do. I love that the people in this show are so largely and completely flawed and messed up, and yet they still do their jobs and do them well. But I'm afraid your statement just doesn't hold water, considering circumstances.
quote:Originally posted by FawnDoo: Tigh was a drinker under Adama's command, that's true - but as for Starbuck, where does the "fist happy" thing come from, the time she hit Tigh? If it's that you mean, even Tigh admitted that he turned the table over first - Starbuck was just defending herself. And she reported to the Brig herself, organised (with Tyrol) the transfer of the Mark II fighters to the landing bay that wasn't a gift shop, conducted recon, combat missions, everything under the sun...not the hallmarks of a terrible officer. A hotheaded one yes, but a bad one? No.
I'm not saying she's a bad officer. Well, okay, I am. She's a good pilot and a bad officer. But being what the military considers a bad officer is points in my book. She may be this amazing pilot, but she still, when you get right down to it, insubordinate. Nobody should be able to hit the XO and get away with it. In fact, in the podcast for "Pegasus," RDM says essentially that.
When Cain calls out Adama for all these failures - drunk XO, insubordinate pilot, crewmen fraternizing with the enemy, Adama can't say anything because it's all true. Sure, Cain is deeply flawed herself, she's just as strict as Adama is loose, but she still has a point, and that's what's so compelling (and I agree, I'd take Adama's Galactica over Cain's Pegasus anyday).
quote:Originally posted by FawnDoo: Adama ran the ship informally, but he wasn't a bad commander. And if you need a comparison just look at Nelena Cain - someone on the other side of the formality scale, and look at the crew she ended up with. If those two are my choices, I will pick Adama's slightly more informal style of command any time.
He is a bad commander. He gets too close: too close to his XO, to his best pilot, to his CAG. He's not a perfect man. He's also a good commander in many ways. It's because both exist in him that I love the character so much.
quote:Originally posted by FawnDoo: No, Adama has imperfect people because people are imperfect by their very nature, that is what it means to be human after all. To suggest otherwise would be to say that if Adama was more of a hardass the people serving under him would suddenly become something contrary to human nature.
People are imperfect, it's the whole point of the show. And I'm not saying if Adama were more of a hardass than it would be the Starship Enterprise. But it would be a tighter ship. It'd also be a more boring show.
quote:Originally posted by FawnDoo: You could be a complete asshole and still be good at your job, remember.
Oh I know, I love the character of Colonel Tigh, personally. Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
To the person who suggested the Zarak/Cain connection, Zarak is from Saggitaron and Cain is from Tauron.
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
quote:Originally posted by OnToMars: His ship survived the attack because it was the oldest, most unadvanced one in the fleet. Adama and crew got lucky and there was absolutely no extraordinary skill involved in their survival. The whole point of Galactica is that it isn't the Enterprise and they're not the creme of the crop on the flagship.
I would have said the Galactica escaped infection by the Cylon virus because it was an older and lower tech ship, but that isn't why it survived the attack. It survived the attack because her commander and crew pulled a series of rabbits out of the hat and were pretty damn good at what they do. Tigh and Adama made a tactical assessment and Tigh dug up the records about Ragnar having the ammo they needed. Gaeta calculated what seemed to be a difficult FTL jump to put them right on top of the anchorage. Starbuck and Tyrol co-ordinated the creation of an effective fighter squadron from the ground up. Starbuck later went on to reduce the number of nukes about to hit the Galactica from three to one and when that one did hit, Tigh made the call to vent the air in the landing pod and so saved the ship and all aboard.
Galactica didn't survive because she was low tech and got lucky - she survived because the people crewing her were sharp and managed to put two and two together faster than the crews of 118 other Battlestars. I mean come on, throughout the miniseries they point out again and again that entire Battlestars lost all power when engaging the enemy. No-one else at any point thought "Hang on, the enemy we're about to engage is an expert at hacking networks, and we're in an advanced Battlestar with a network?" Did Admiral Nagala not read any "Windows for Dummies" books then? Or did the part about maybe switching off your network get cut off when they sliced off the corner of every page?
quote:Originally posted by OnToMars: And it's become quite clear now that the Cylons' true intent is not to destroy the RTF
I don't think their final intentions can be guessed at right now, but I think destruction of humanity is up there on the agenda. Even Boomer mk 2 acknowledged this in "Flight of the Phoenix" - her being aboard the ship didn't mean the Cylons wouldn't try to take it out.
I like the crew too - and as a lifelong Trek fan it's nice to finally see a crew that bear some resemblance to actual human beings (DS9 excepted - they got it right there) and not perfect mannequins with a faint air of smugness about them. However I still think that despite being flawed, they're all good at what they do.
quote:Originally posted by OnToMars: When Cain calls out Adama for all these failures - drunk XO, insubordinate pilot, crewmen fraternizing with the enemy, Adama can't say anything because it's all true. Sure, Cain is deeply flawed herself, she's just as strict as Adama is loose, but she still has a point, and that's what's so compelling (and I agree, I'd take Adama's Galactica over Cain's Pegasus anyday).
Given that Cain murdered crewmen herself (simply because he objected to her taking the ship into a tactical blunder), managed to lose 800 of her own crew (that would be another tactical blunder) and countenances the remaining crew forming rape gangs to enjoy themselves with a prisoner, I'm thinking her authority to call Adama on any of his failings is extremely limited.
quote:Originally posted by OnToMars: He is a bad commander. He gets too close: too close to his XO, to his best pilot, to his CAG. He's not a perfect man. He's also a good commander in many ways. It's because both exist in him that I love the character so much.
I see what you mean and like I say, I admit he has made the occasional questionable call, but I think to label him as being a bad officer and a bad commander is a little harsh. The situation he is in means he has to make decisions and find solutions that fit the circumstances - it's a matter of survival, is all, and he is a pragmatic man trying to pull those around him through difficult times.
quote:Originally posted by OnToMars: Oh I know, I love the character of Colonel Tigh, personally.
Agreed - now if only he would dump Ellen, he'd be fine. Every time those two are together in a scene it's like Macbeth in space!
quote:Originally posted by Balaam Xumucane: Er, so has it been a year?
*cough* Errrr, our time, yes. You got me - my mistake, I'm still in Trek "1 season = 1 year" mode, sorry about that. How long has it been Galactica time, four or five months? Still, impressive that they managed to survive that long! Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, they also survived on account of Roslin convincing Adama that running was the better option.
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
True, but by that point they had already been kicked seven ways till Sunday by the Cylons and managed to come through more or less ok....but yeah, Roslin taking the King Arthur tack probably contributed a good bit to their long-term survival. Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Okay, I was watching the Galactica rerun tonight (don't remember the episode title), but it's the one that starts with Tigh interrogating Tyrol and accusing him of being a Cylon. Anyway, Tyrol is trying to defend himself, and one of the things he says is that he's served on Battlestars since he was 19, and lists them: Pegasus, Columbia, Atlantia and Galactica. Interesting, although if Pegasus was his first assignment, Admiral Cain was probably not even a Commander yet. But he may have friends still among the crew...
B.J.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
Hmmm... how old is the Pegasus? I mean, if it's supposed to be newer than the Galactica, maybe Tyrol served aboard the previous one. Well, how old is Tyrol, BTW?
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
109. Centons.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
DAGIT-centons.
And Pegasus? Well, Galactica is about 50, right? There's no telling how much newer Pegasus is, although she was supposedly undergoing overhaul at the time of the attack. One would expect that she's hardly BRAND new, and could be in fact nearly as old as Galactica.
Mark
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Tyrol's not that old -- late twenties, mid-thirties. If we assume he joined up when he was eighteen, he could have served upon Pegasus when he was a green rook -- maybe the ship was brand new then, who knows? I think its clear Pegasus is not near as old as Galactica -- one look at the interiors of the two should convince anyone of that. Pegasus has a much more automated-friendly design of a society forgetting the lessons that Bill Adama refused to.
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