The communication stones are starting to bug me a bit...not knowing for sure who is who is a bit confusing. And who would willingly give up their body to another person? Maybe it just switches the two people on either end of the stones, as Telford and Young were switched. I assume that that somewhat bitchy woman in the pink pantsuit inhabited Chloe's body. And Telford...I swear we say TJ (or whatever her name is) trying and failing to save him back on Icarus base. We do get an authentication that Rush used the stones to contact Earth though, so his authority does seem legit for now. Either that, or Col. Young superseded him when he regained consciousness.
Aside from that, I found it to be an interesting episode. A bit of filler...but a nice episode all the same. We're getting to know the characters already, which I find a refreshing change from other series, where it normally takes the better part of the season, or even most of the series to really delve into the characters. We also learned that the ship isn't really as big as it seemed in the first 2 parts, as during the last scene, we see that Scott's window is clearly visible, and rather large proportionally. I'd estimate maybe 200-300 meters, and maybe 7 or 8 decks tall.(possibly more when counting that pyramid thingy.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I'm starting to like where this is going a bit more. They're taking the principle of Atlantis and going a lot further with the whole "out of touch, out of their league" thing. Though the 12-hour "ticking clock" gimmick will get real old, real fast.
It's good to see aliens that you DON'T communicate with (directly, anyway; who knows if the hallucinations were induced).
For Sean's questions:
The whole thing with the communications stones was already established in SG-1. It's a two-way thing under most circumstances, and obviously Telford and Young both consented as part of their job.
Telford was a F-302 pilot during the battle, he wasn't on the base.
Concerning ship size, I think the ship is easily in the 500m+ range, after all, it was a long pull-back from the window at the end.
Also, I hope that shuttle can manage FTL, too! Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
One other question: when the Ancients planted all those Stargates, didn't they also plant any DHD's? The beautiful thing about the original Milky Way gate system is that anyone could figure out how to use it once they have the right addresses. But if you need to have a fancy tricorder to dial the gate, that's not very nice for anyone else who stumbles across the network in the mean time.
It's obvious that those two shmucks who tried to check out another planet couldn't leave said planet because the guy with the remote control didn't follow them through. Therefore, they had no way to get back to the ship.
Generally I'm not a fan of ambiguity, but I kinda like wondering what happened to those two.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan:
For Sean's questions:
The whole thing with the communications stones was already established in SG-1. It's a two-way thing under most circumstances, and obviously Telford and Young both consented as part of their job.
Telford was a F-302 pilot during the battle, he wasn't on the base.
Concerning ship size, I think the ship is easily in the 500m+ range, after all, it was a long pull-back from the window at the end.
Also, I hope that shuttle can manage FTL, too!
Thanks for clearing all that up for me. I guess I wasn't paying very close attention to the first episode. I haven't watched much of SG1 (having only recently become interested in the franchise through Atlantis re-runs, and watching it online), so I'm not too well versed on the mythos. Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
I don't think that was a shuttle that launched at the end. It looked roughly spherical. But what else could it be?
I found the idea of traversing enough desert wasteland in 6 hours (cuz you have to have time to get back) to find a mineral deposit kind of silly. And there were no landmarks whatsoever, so I hope they had some 'find the gate sensor' on each team. (Not to mention, I hope Sargent Crazy had a find-the-lieutenant sensor, because otherwise he found him way too easily.)
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
Was certainly nice to get out of the claustrophobic environment of the first two episodes. I suspect that'll be something they can play up as needed as the series progresses.
The thing with the communication stones was bound to get confusing, and I'm not sure I like their solution. I think at first we should see the person whose body has been snatched at least until we establish that they've convinced the other person, or unless we're only interested in their perspective. They did a nice job of mixing that up in the ep of SG1 with Vala and Daniel "encountering" the Ori. I just didn't like it ONLY being the person inhabiting that body. Great concept though. Used fairly well this ep (too much crying) and I really liked RDA's performance here.
LOVED that the "alien" presence was so very alien. Probably they will have to mix it up with some forehead aliens, but hope they'll keep the really different "forces" type as well.
Some big loose ends with the two stranded crewman. We never got to see the planet they went to (even Kino information). No radio contact, etc. What I found strange was no one mentioned anything further about it. Just gone. Half-expected something after Telford ordered the one scientist to look into overriding the lockout on the other addresses. But no. Like that just dropped away, and rather than it feeling like something that gets called back later, it felt like something that got dropped. I do wonder whether the pod-thing that swooped off at the end was intended to retrieve them (for good or ill). I took a screen cap (but Flare upload is telling me I need 250 posts to upload for some odd reason, err, hello?), it certainly didn't look like one of the shuttles we saw before, and in fact, didn't really look like it was supposed to be part of the ship. Interesting, though.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I'm still holding out with the "no-aliens" idea. I suspect that (or would like to think) that the swirly-dust-devil-of-ambiguous-helpfulnessTM was either something to do with Destiny itself or something the seed ship left behind, or it's the ancients themselves. I'm sure they're at least watching as they seam to do little else.
Either way, I would just really like for there not to be any humanoid aliens at all on this one and DEFIANTLY no parasitic aliens controlling/mutating human bodies.
I like the serial format they seam to be adopting here. One of the (many) things that bothered me about the episodic nature of both Atlantis and Voyager was that things became routine just a little too quick...like immediately after the pilot.
As for the thing that detached at the end...well I suppose it's possible they're not alone on the ship.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Would also like to know what happened to the two who went through the gate to one of the other addresses. What WAS that thing that detached itself from the Destiny. Maybe it was an automated retrieval system for those two left behind?
Hmm, the swirly thing - alien from that planet or an Ancient?
I just hope they don't resort to needing to go back to the Replicators again when they run out of idea for stories or enemies.
Still interested in getting to see Furlings somewhere along the line. Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Daniel Butler: I don't think that was a shuttle that launched at the end. It looked roughly spherical. But what else could it be?
I took another look at the takeoff at the end... the reason we don't recognize it is because it's the aft end; it was facing forward as it detached from the ship, that glowing red thing must be the engine.
quote:I found the idea of traversing enough desert wasteland in 6 hours (cuz you have to have time to get back) to find a mineral deposit kind of silly. And there were no landmarks whatsoever, so I hope they had some 'find the gate sensor' on each team. (Not to mention, I hope Sargent Crazy had a find-the-lieutenant sensor, because otherwise he found him way too easily.)
Though I didn't agree with the argued use of the Kino to close that shuttle door (they seem to be non-interactive), this seems to have been the perfect time to send out a few dozen Kinos in all directions.
As for Greer finding Scott, that kinda got compressed, but here's what I assumed happened from the two shots: Greer was heading outwards from the gate and came across Scott's tracks, then followed Scott's tracks until he found him. It just seemed, from the timing, that it was a perfect coincidence.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
As for the two who went through to the locked-out address, I think we're supposed to assume that the planet was not, in fact, safe, and something killed them, since they stopped responding to radio contact.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
I hate it when tv shows, movies, and books do that; have a mysterious force kill off characters who chose not to follow the group dynamic. I want to know what killed them, don't tease me with "we lost radio contact!", tell me how they died. Give a concrete reason why other characters shouldn't have followed them to the other planet besides their implied death.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I sometimes say the same thing as MNW. However, I think that it's quite realistic to not get all the answers. They already established that they had limited power for dialing the gate. Were they in a condition to jeopardize the rest of the group to rescue two knuckleheads?
As for not following "the group dynamic," I have a different phrase: "disobeying orders." This is a military outfit, those guys (or two of them) were soldiers, and their job was to do what their commander instructed. What they did constitutes desertion.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
I also felt that it would have been the smart thing to load up a dozen of the spaceballs and send them out in all directions. Just how long is a backpack full of lime suppose to last in those scrubbers? I can't imagine it lasting that long.
As for the ship launch at the end, I just had the feeling that there was possibly another presence that had been checking the ship out and then left. As in setting up an entry of an antagonist. I really hope not, I would like to see this have kind of an "Earth 2" feel of trying to survive without the weekly bad guy.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Unless it's Tim Curry.
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
Oooh, see I do have a weak spot for Tim Curry... So that'd be OK with me. While I do love the idea of there being no big-bad, Rev, I just can't see them doing it. It seems apparent this show was patterned on BSG, and so they almost have to have their Cylons (Borg, Goa'uld, Wraith, Replicator, Ori)
Watched the ep over again. I guess all we get about the fate of our two missing crewman (Curtis and Palmer) was Eli trying unsuccessfully to raise them on the radio through the open wormhole. No word on if they made good on Greer's line about getting them another remote. Kind of weird that was all.
Was again frustrated by them not using the Kinos to find the lakebed. Watching these humans, so ill-adapted to desert travel, trudging up and down endless dunes while scores of little floating balls lay dormant aboard Destiny, just waiting to flit effortlessly across the sand or better yet be hurled high into the sky. I wasn't quite yelling, but there were some substantial sighing.
A friend who hadn't watched any Stargate (save the film), checked it out. He had what I felt was an interesting comment. That it was like watching two different shows with serious, complex and menacing Robert Carlyle and then skippy, goof-patrol Eli bounding around and apeing for the camera. My friend didn't make it through the 2 hr pilot. Dropped out around the star map scene.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Maybe someone wandered into the little ship and accidently ejected?
They could have brought a second kino in. While that second group of soldiers went searching Eli could have dialed back that other address and sent through a kino.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I suspect there was a scene or shot cut there somewhere that would have given you a clearer idea as to what happened with the other team, but remember that at that point the episode was all about the ticking clock and a bit with Eli fiddling with the gate and Kinos would have killed the pace.
Regardless, the show looks to be of the serial persuasion so I'm sure they'll revisit the fate of those two in a short while.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I'm not sure that sending out a bunch of cameras across the desert would have helped them find anything. They kept stopping in random spots to test the sand. Obviously, they were not able to find the right location by sight.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
having not seen the show yet, what's the deal with the ticking clock? Do they have to make it back to the ship within a certain amount of time before it's out of range of the gate? or is the clock related to their air supply?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
As soon as the Destiny jumped out of FTL and dialled the desert planet, a 12 hour countdown started. When the countdown was up and the wormhole was disengaged it jumped back into FTL.
There's not explanation (yet) why there is a 12 hour time limit. Since Rush said they're essentially running on auto pilot, my guess is that it was pre-programmed by the ancients for some automated survey system and to keep the ship on a schedule so it doesn't get stranded in normal space. Of course if they had access to the bridge or control room I'm certain there's an override to the clock and the autopilot but for now they can only access a limited area around the gate room so they're more or less at the mercy of the ship's programming.
There was a ticking clock for the air too (though not quite so literal) in that they only had enough fresh air for a day (prior to gating out) before the CO2 levels became lethal.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
If anybody cares, Itunes has Air parts 1 and 2 up for download for free, so if you want to grab some screenshots of the ship, now would be a good time.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
This board really doesn't have many pirates on it, do it?
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
iTunes store sucks. Believe it or not, Apple, there are people in this world that do not have a credit card and have no interest in having one.
Oh, I'm pretty sure we're all pirates. However, I can watch SG:U on my own TV Friday nights so I have no need to download. For once, Canadian TV is in sync. Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: As soon as the Destiny jumped out of FTL and dialled the desert planet, a 12 hour countdown started. When the countdown was up and the wormhole was disengaged it jumped back into FTL.
Which would mean the address would no longer work. So.. you can't gate to the ship while it's moving FTL... then how's anyone ever supposed to dial the ship? And how did our heros connect to the gate in the first place? Does it drop out every time a wormhole tries to connect?
(I don't knwo why I'm asking.. I'll have to wait until it come out on DVD to see it anyway...)
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
You know, that does raise some interesting questions. We know that when they gated to Destiny, the ship was stopped as shortly after they gated aboard the ship jumped into FTL again. However, given the nature of the ship the gate network is tied into it in such a fashion as it has the same address no matter where it is (unlike Apophis's ship which took on the address of the planet it was closest to). This theory has merit in Eli's suggestion that the address is in fact a code and not an address at all; this code sends a signal through every galaxy's network until the Destiny is found, at which point it drops into normal space and a connection is made.
This also explains the rather large power requirements as the signal went through several galaxies (has anyone done an analysis of the map scene to determine just how far away they are?).
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
It would be difficult to do so as the camera cuts away to reaction shots after showing the ship pass through several galaxies. (Suppose we could count beeps if we wanted, though.) Think it's safe to say that they are at least far, far away.
I like the idea of the gate system being used to track down Destiny's location: its address being more of a code.
Can these gates can be dialed manually? Don't recall having seen that with Pegasus gates. They may not have the remote, but maybe Curtis and Palmer aren't as effed as we thought...
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Actually the ship jumped out of FTL just before the receiving gate started dialling, but yes, the properly coded incoming address probably triggered the jump back to normal space (for lack of a better term, since it wasn't actually in hyperspace to begin with.)
Of course that would mean that (so far as we know) the only gate capable of dialling Destiny from outside it's own network has been destroyed, so if they do eventually gate back to the Milky way, they can never return to the Destiny since even with a ZPM they'd never be able to generate enough power. That's assuming of course that all gates have the capability to dial the 9th chevron, but then why else would both the Milky way & Pegasus gates all have them?
Small point, but did the episodes have an "wormhole travel" animation? I don't remember seeing one at all.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
The only wormhole travel animation we get is when Destiny is in FTL flight.
As for the power issues, I'm thinking that tapping the planet's core was the only way they could get enough; however, I'm sure a fully-powered Atlantis could dial Destiny.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I don't recall all the details from their initial attempts to dial the nine-chevron address (or, "address"), but is it possible that the reason it wouldn't work is that the ship was in FTL at the time?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
No, it was the point of origin (again.) They were using the origin symbol of the planet they were one, it took Eli to suggest they use the Earth symbol before it worked.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
So... does this once and for all conclusively prove that the Earth symbol is on every Gate and is not a unique point of origin symbol? Or are they using Earth's gate at Icarus Base since the Atlantis gate is on Earth now?
If they're suggesting Earth's point of origin symbol is on every gate, it really irritates me. It's one of the things they've been inconsistent with. Sometimes they go out of their way to show that every point of origin symbol is unique, other times, the Earth symbol shows up on an off-world DHD. The point of origin would HAVE to be unique or there could only be as many gates as there are symbols on the gate.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
All it really proves is that the Earth symbol was on the Icarus gate. Seriously though it's just one of those things that the writers don't seam to have a clear idea about themselves.
I suppose it's possible that some gates have a limited dialling capability, that is only able to dial addresses that are made up of they symbols it's track & DHD, giving the gate network a branching structure rather than a "cloud" structure.
It's somewhat complicated however by the fact that the Earth chevron is not the original point of origin for Earth, the one on the Antarctic gate was and was even seen to override the Giza gate.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
I never understood the point-of-origin anyway. Why do you need 6 spatial coordinates to define the endpoint, but only one symbol to define the beginning? If the positional data can be encoded into a single glyph, why aren't all the gate addresses just two chevrons, destination and origin? And if the gate system can keep track of all its neighbors and so forth, why have such a weird constellation-based system at all? Why would the Ancients use *constellations* as addresses? Why not just some numerical address similar to an IP identifying a particular gate? Even if you want to identify the general region of space and connect with a gate if there is one there, why not use a more precise altitude/azimuth or latitude/longitude system, or some other more advanced system? (All of this seemed especially weird in the movie, where there were, apparently, *only two gates.* Why have addresses at all in that case?)
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
The six symbols could define a vector (location, orientation, magnitude/relativistic velocity?) or perhaps a matrix describing the relative positions/orientations with the seventh defining the sector from which you are coming as a sort of checksum/punctuation. Someone should look that up...
quote:...The inner ring, which rotates within the outer, contains thirty-eight unique symbols representing star constellations and one symbol representing the planet or point of origin. Pairs of Stargates function by generating an artificial stable wormhole between them, allowing one-way travel through. The symbols on the inner ring of the Stargate correspond to constellations and serve to map out coordinates for various destination planets.[1][2]...
...
Addresses
The symbols used to compose addresses are actually pictoral representations of star constellations. By identifying six constellations in space, a single point can be interpolated that corresponds to the destination desired.[22] As only a small portion of the possible combinations of Stargate symbols represent valid addresses, dialing the Gate at random is largely futile. In "Children of the Gods", SG-1 discovers a cartouche on Abydos with a list of valid Stargate addresses, along with a map that allows the SGC to compensate for thousands of years of stellar drift. Another list of Stargate addresses is provided by Jack O'Neill in "The Fifth Race" from knowledge downloaded into his mind by a Repository of the Ancients. In "Rising", a list of Stargate addresses in the Pegasus galaxy is found in the Atlantis database. The SGC assigns designations to Stargate-accessible planets in the form Pxx-xxx (Mxx-xxx is more common in the Pegasus galaxy). Samantha Carter explains in "The Broca Divide" that the designation "is based on a binary code the computer uses for extrapolation".
The symbols dialed are often referred to as "coordinates", and are written as an ordered string; for example, this is the address used in the show for the planet Abydos: (corresponding to the constellations of Taurus, Serpens Caput, Capricornus, Monoceros, Sagittarius and Orion). As explained by Dr. Daniel Jackson in the movie, the Stargate requires seven correct symbols to connect to another Stargate. As shown in the picture opposite, the first six symbols act as co-ordinates, creating three intersecting lines, the destination. The Stargate uses the seventh symbol as the point of origin allowing one to plot a straight line course to the destination.
Eight-symbol addresses are introduced in "The Fifth Race", opening up new plot lines by connecting Stargates to different galaxies. The additional symbol acts as a type of "area code".[4] Such connections, in comparison to seven symbol codes, require substantially more energy to complete a functional wormhole — much more than any standard dialing method can provide. In the first instance, opening an intergalactic wormhole is shown to exceed the total power generation capacity of the SGC at the time. O'Neill fashioned an additional power source using spare parts and the liquid naqahdah power core of a staff weapon. A fully-charged Zero Point Module (ZPM) can provide enough power for regular travel between galaxies.[17][25][26]
Stargate Universe introduces the concept of a nine-symbol address, the purpose of the ninth chevron never having been explored in the previous series.[27] The ninth symbol is suggested to be meant to lock on to moving Stargates, being a distance calculation along the "straight line" from the point of origin to destination (but more of a divide than the eighth chevron multiplier). Like eight-symbol addresses, the dialing this address requires a significant amount of power, such that the SGC had to tap into a planet's unstable radioactive core to meet the energy demand. The nine-symbol address is a specific combination used to dial the Destiny, a massive Ancient vessel that was part of a project to explore the universe, before the Ancients ascended.[28]
At the extra-galactic distances we're talking about, using Earth as a Point of Origin (was this always the Å?) for any point in the Milky Way galaxy would likely constitute a relatively small margin of error. I didn't watch closely enough to see if the crew was dialing nine digits to get back to the ship...
[ October 13, 2009, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: bX ]
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Earth's original gate was the Antarctic gate, no? And it's point of origin was a low line with a circle above it. It seems the pyramid with a circle on it has become the 'Earth-associated' symbol.
Maybe they just got lucky with the Abydos address being a spatial co-ordinate thing. It seems like all the other addresses they've got from Abydos, the Ancient repostiory, Atlantis etc. They've never used ones they 'tried' themselves have they? Except for Abydos and that was on the Stargate cover wasn't it?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
A possible explanation for the use of constellations is that they simply used constellations as a way to artistically represent address components. We've seen in SG-1 that each symbol on the Milky Way gate is also a "letter" with an associated sound. Using constellations that are the same on every gate in the galaxy makes no sense at all because constellations visible from earth wouldn't appear the same on the other side of the galaxy.
The truth is, it's a hold-over from the movie that we're not supposed to think too hard about. In the movie, the Abydos gate had a completely different set of constellation symbols which makes alot more sense.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
Abydos in the movie was also on the other side of the universe.....
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Yeah what did that woman call it? The Calium/Kalium galaxy?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: A possible explanation for the use of constellations is that they simply used constellations as a way to artistically represent address components. We've seen in SG-1 that each symbol on the Milky Way gate is also a "letter" with an associated sound. Using constellations that are the same on every gate in the galaxy makes no sense at all because constellations visible from earth wouldn't appear the same on the other side of the galaxy.
The truth is, it's a hold-over from the movie that we're not supposed to think too hard about. In the movie, the Abydos gate had a completely different set of constellation symbols which makes alot more sense.
The movie logic wasn't exactly flawless either. For one thing, if there was only supposed to be two gates, then why use an address at all? If there's more than one, with each gate using different symbols and a given address only works between two specific gates (like the address for Earth changes depending on where you are because the constellations are different) then what's the point of a network at all? It'd be like someone's phone number changing depending on where you're calling them from (area codes not withstanding) and then you have to dial an extra digit that is specific to your own location. If on the other hand the gates projected wormholes through space without the need of another gate to link to then it might make a little more sense.
I think what the series tried to do is make some semblance of sense with what they inherited but every time the tried it just got more tangled and illogical. For one thing, I was never sure how "adjusting for galactic drift" was supposed to work.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I think the DHDs handled that. They'd periodically update the positions of all the gates so they always had relatively accurate positions for all the gates in the network.
Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
OK. For the hell of it I'm gonna run through this slowly in my head.
You dial from a gate at point A (lets say Earth). The destination gate (lets say Omicron Persei 8, because it's funny) is 1000 light years away from you, in a different part of the galaxy, moving at a diferent speed and direction to Earth ( don't forget that's in 3 dimensions).
Lets say you dial 1-2-3-4-5-6-Å. This corresponds to the rough position in space of Omicron Persei 8 (as we know that the gates don't dial a particular gate, given that the wormhole can jump to another one at the same location).
Move on several thousand or even million years.
You dial 1-2-3-4-5-6-Å from the Earth gate and nothing happens because Omicron Persei 8 has moved and there is now no gate in the destination address "region".
So a weak analogy (in the best Star Trek tradition) would be dialing your Grans phone at her house. Later, your Granny moves house. You dial the old number, you can't get through to her.
So the DHD (or whatever) says address 1-2-3-4-5-6-[origin] = Omicron Persei 8, and adjusts the point in space to which this address points. Like Gran making her new phone number the same as her old one in her new house.
This to me says one fo two things. Either the DHD knows its dialing Omicron Persei 8 and not the intersecting point of 1-2-3-4-5-6. This means that the reference points (i.e. the symbols on the gate) are simply abstract, rather like individual digits that make up a phone number.
I would surmise that if the Antarctca gate is the first ever gate then this makes sense, as they simply decided to use constelations visible from the 1st gates origin as the symbols on the gate.
This allows a standardisation of stargates (except for the orgin symbol, which should be unique on each gate), which also makes sense to me.
But, the fact stellar drift has an effect on dialing a particular address says to me that 1-2-3-4-5-6-[origin] does not equate to saying "Location of Omicron Persei 8".
So I think that means the symbols on the gate reflect non fixed points in space, which the DHDs contiually adjust to take account for stellar drift so you can dial a particular place?
Or am I thinking too hard in order to cover the backsides of showrunners who kind of skipped over the workings of the great and mysterious plot device for dramatic/lazy reasons.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
The problem with the inconsistencies is that they reinforced the movie idea with the first episode of Universe. They had the opportunity to go 'we originally thought this - but we know now it's actually just this, each are words or codes - most of the addresses we've gotten from alien sources.'
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
I really did like that each glyph had a syllable associated with it. I wish they'd use it more - it makes perfect sense. If I had to look at a DHD to see where some alien just dragged my teammate, I'd never remember 7 random shapes, except if I'd been working with them for years (and not every member of every SG team has - probably not even close). However, reading them like an alphabet and getting "proclarush taonas" would make it incredibly easy to remember, and then you can name the planets after that too. Plus, it's easy to tell another person an address - proclarush taonas is a lot easier than "scoripus pisces cancer virgo aquarius" or something.
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
Totally agree. I believe there are 38 symbols (plus one) on the Milky Way gates (36, I believe on Pegasus and Universe gates) which could correspond quite nicely to an alphabet. Also, is it wrong that Dan's "proclarush taonas" sounds oddly familiar?
I'm not sure the show ever came right out and said this, but my interpretation of how the gate system works is that the gate addresses originally corresponded to the coordinates as defined by constellation triangulation. But as Ginger Beacon mentioned stellar drift has made that less and less true over the intervening centuries. Is why just plugging in the old addresses (from Abydos) didn't work out of the box. Gates with DHDs have been compensating for these movements, but since the SGC gate didn't have a DHD, that's where Sam's stellar drift breakthrough comes fixes everything. Now I'm not about to go back over every DHD dialing we've seen, but does this mean the ring is actually spinning around to a different (presumably corrected) address and not the glyphs as dialed? Also, and I'm nearly certain this would be a very rare occasion, but what happens when a gate is placed at (moves into) the original coordinates of an old gate's coordinates (for which the DHDs have been auto-correcting)? Where does that wormhole go?
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
I've never understood the purpose of using constellations for coordinates in the first place. Individual stars would work much better. A constellation can be made up of stars that are thousands of light years away from each other, and it would be hard to identify a "center" of the constellation. Makes me think more and more that the symbols are just that - symbols, just based on constellations.
Not only that, but Jackson's original coordinate idea for the address in the movie is completely invalid. According to the movie (and ignoring the series for now), Abydos is outside of our galaxy. There's no way you can use any of our constellations to get coordinates in another galaxy in the way he described. I wonder how many people realized he was talking out of his ass, and just got lucky with the seventh symbol?
...... Holy crap, I just realized that Richard Kind was in both the movie and SGA! There's galactic doppelgangers everywhere!
Posted by Josh (Member # 1884) on :
The movie itself isn't that great a source of Stargate logic in general. After all, they had the first six symbols in order already and they couldn't identify the seventh despite making dials in the past. They just needed to dial the gate 30ish times and they would have found it.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
quote:Originally posted by bX: Totally agree. I believe there are 38 symbols (plus one) on the Milky Way gates (36, I believe on Pegasus and Universe gates) which could correspond quite nicely to an alphabet. Also, is it wrong that Dan's "proclarush taonas" sounds oddly familiar?
And yeah, I thought that too - 30 or so random dials and they'd hit it. They didn't try that in all those years? They really needed some random Egyptologist?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Or maybe Catherine learned something about the weirdos who showed up at her house one day in 1969 and really wanted Daniel to join the program. She always kind of seemed like she knew more than she was letting on.
A stargate being placed in the location of another one happened on Earth and we saw what happened. The new gate and it's address assumed the position of the old one, but only because the old one's DHD was broken. When the old one was powered back up by the Russians, it cut off the Giza gate.
Here's the problem: If the gate network tracks changes in gate location gradually over centuries in order to maintain an up-to-date location, moving a gate to another solar system in a couple of days should make it useless. No other gate could lock onto it to update it's location and that gate itself couldn't dial out. Our heros have made several references to moved gates broadcasting it's new location or something... but they never really said how it did that.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Funny thing about the symbols-as-syllables idea: they ruined that concept right from the beginning with the second address: "Terra Atlantus" is only five syllables. Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Plus it's kind of contrived that the syllables happen to match up with what is obviously Ancient for "Atlantis Earth" or...something.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: Or maybe Catherine learned something about the weirdos who showed up at her house one day in 1969 and really wanted Daniel to join the program. She always kind of seemed like she knew more than she was letting on.
A stargate being placed in the location of another one happened on Earth and we saw what happened. The new gate and it's address assumed the position of the old one, but only because the old one's DHD was broken. When the old one was powered back up by the Russians, it cut off the Giza gate.
Here's the problem: If the gate network tracks changes in gate location gradually over centuries in order to maintain an up-to-date location, moving a gate to another solar system in a couple of days should make it useless. No other gate could lock onto it to update it's location and that gate itself couldn't dial out. Our heros have made several references to moved gates broadcasting it's new location or something... but they never really said how it did that.
I now vaguely recall there being a bit about how the DHDs would periodically synch up their positions and addresses. So there must be some kind of internal database/address book in the DHD that stores addresses and the correction vectors from the last synch upload. Which would explain why Earth was cut off from dialling out because the DHD was disconnected during the revolt. Of course it wouldn't explain why Ra couldn't just gate back through the Antarctica gate...
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: Funny thing about the symbols-as-syllables idea: they ruined that concept right from the beginning with the second address: "Terra Atlantus" is only five syllables.
quote:Originally posted by Daniel Butler: Plus it's kind of contrived that the syllables happen to match up with what is obviously Ancient for "Atlantis Earth" or...something.
Wasn't there a bit about how the language of the ancients (or one of them, at least) was the basis for Latin? Maybe through Merlin, a few millennia prior to setting up shop in Canterbury. As for the syllables, well every "letter" need not equal a syllable when pronounced as one word. Some may combine into single syllables when put next to one another. Like, for the sake of argument 'c' and 'h' becoming 'Ch'.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Actually, I thought they ruined the symbol as sound thing because O'Niell clearly identified the Earth symbol as "at" but the address for Terra Atlantus (or Atlanticus or whatever) which is Earth and has the AT sound in it, wouldn't have the Earth symbol in the address.
They were trying to be clever but screwed it up.
The the update protocol for the Gates was called the correlative update program. Every gate dials an address on it's own every so often and swaps location info. Possibly runs a compare and contrast on the DHD's entire address book and updates the most recent info on every address.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Yeah, Ancient *was* the basis of Latin. I wasn't commenting on that, I was just saying, it's awfully contrived that the address (and therefore place in the heavens among the constellations) would match up with the word 'terra' like that. Unless they are indeed just 'codes' and did it on purpose. ...But then, the Milky Way gate network was laid down long before the Ancients left for Pegasus, wasn't it?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Actually, I thought they ruined the symbol as sound thing because O'Niell clearly identified the Earth symbol as "at" but the address for Terra Atlantus (or Atlanticus or whatever) which is Earth and has the AT sound in it, wouldn't have the Earth symbol in the address.
I won't pretend it makes perfect sense (I know the SG writers better than that) but since it's an ancient alphabet and an ancient language, you really can't say that there can't possibly be another symbol of combination of symbols that can produce the 'at' sound. Like for example "ci" and "sy", two totally different pairs of symbols that can produce the same sound, depending on pronunciation. Languages can be slippery things and don't hold to as many rules as some people like to think.
quote:Yeah, Ancient *was* the basis of Latin. I wasn't commenting on that, I was just saying, it's awfully contrived that the address (and therefore place in the heavens among the constellations) would match up with the word 'terra' like that.
Perhaps that sequence is where the ancient word 'terra' comes from originally, not the other way around? I think there's enough wiggle room to make it vaguely plausible.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
To answer an earlier question, the Antarctic gate MAY have been the original one put on Earth by the Ancients, but was lost over time. When Ra ambled onto the scene in 8,000 BC he brought his own (or used the original) to harvest humans and spread them around the galaxy. When they revolted and buried the gate, the other System Lords brought in their own (or used the original) and put it in Antarctica to nab their own humans, explaining the various other cultures found around the galaxy. Eventually that one fell into disuse and/or revolt as well, and remained buried until SG-1 stumbled upon it in their first season.
Late, quick notes on this episode now - apologies if this has been gone over already:
- Cute use of "kino-vision" in the "Last time" part of the episode.
- I welcome the return of a practical gate prop on location. For almost the entirety of Atlantis' run (and much of SG-1's 9-10th seasons) the physical prop was replaced with a CG gate that was simply buried upright in the ground instead of up on a pedestal. It saved a lot of money, but looked pretty convenient IMO and a little wierd when the gate was obviously "buried" around a worn path. It also gave the actors little to interact with.
- The WHOLE GATE turns (via CGI) on the desert planet, which is cool - but it differs from the spinning prop on the Destiny, for which only the front "half" of the gate spins. A video on Gateworld shows that the back end of the gate remains stationary while the "watchface" spins. It's only a matter of time until we see this on screen.
- They were checking in every twenty minutes at the start even though they knew they were under a significant power drain at the time.
- O'Neil is a three-star general now! Fans will recall he was a mere one-star Brigadier General when he was made leader of the SGC in SG-1 season 8; he got an extra star the following year when he transferred to the pentagon (taking Hammond's place and rank as Major General) and is now a Lieutenant General in the same place. Apparently it means he can wear a modified version of the Icarus base uniform while in his office in Washington...
- Curtis, the Airman who goes through the gate with Palmer, has a mere M-16 rifle instead of the G-36s everyone else seems to have. Looks like they're down to 22 guns now, and they don't all fire the same ammunition...
- And no, while I think we'll hear them mentioned again at some point, I doubt they'll ever be seen again. There was a reason those addresses were locked out of the dialing options, and those two were probably busy being poisoned or asphyxiated or digested while Eli was trying to contact them. I wish they would have followed up with it, but I guess the writers figured what we got is enough to recognize that YOU DON'T DIAL THE GREYED OUT ADDRESSES.
- It does raise the question as to how Destiny knew to lock out those addresses in the first place, even if they were on planets light years away. Did the ship access preliminary findings from the seeder ship that placed them there and conclude that they were non-viable?
- I was already shouting "stick your arm in the gate!" when the countdown was ticking to zero.
- They may have TWO shuttles on the Destiny with one damaged, but the final pull-away shows that there is a berth for a third shuttle, directly behind and facing the opposite way of the damaged shuttle. You can see the lit-up landing lights (or whatever they are) just outside the window where Chloe and Scott are tenderizing.
- Ooh, alien shuttle / probe / thing! Jives with my earlier supposition that the Icarus people aren't the first to be here. We shall see...
Three hours in, and I'm liking this show so far. Will keep watching.
Mark
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:- It does raise the question as to how Destiny knew to lock out those addresses in the first place, even if they were on planets light years away. Did the ship access preliminary findings from the seeder ship that placed them there and conclude that they were non-viable?
Just more evidence that there is an advanced AI and/or ancient controlling Destiny. It would have to know the capabilities and requirements of it's passengers in order to determine the relative viability of a given planet. After all, I doubt there are many environments that a properly equipped ancient can't deal with and if a planet isn't even remotely viable from the get-go, why drop a gate at all?
Of course it's possible that planet could have been gate-seeded millennia ago (we have no idea how far ahead any of them are) so the more likely scenario is that a device of some sort (perhaps orbital satellite) is dropped along with the gate and can transmit regular viability updates to Destiny.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Concerning Mark's question of how the Destiny knew the conditions on the various planets, I've got a few thoughts...
First, what exactly WAS the Destiny's mission? It seems that there were other automated ships that seeded the various galaxies with stargates. But then if Destiny was the follow-up, what's it following up on? Is it a survey for habitable planets? Wouldn't the seeding ships already pick habitable planets in the first place.
We don't know how the ship's sensors or FTL work. It's possible the ship has mega-long-range sensors that can pick up data from way far away. It's also possible that the ship has an extensive database that is from the various seeder ships.
Then we come to the question of why the Destiny's mission was apparently never fulfilled. Because the thing about learning to ascend is too convenient. They had enough technology to build Atlantis in the mean time, they could have followed up on Destiny too. But maybe something went wrong...
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Well, something must have poked holes in the hull, I imagine that had something to do the Ancients abandoning it. I gather the initial intention would have been for Destiny to act as a mobile hub for exploring new galaxies. All it had to do was get in range of a batch of stargates and the crew could gate there and back and do whatever it is they do before moving on the the next area.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
I thought they explicitly said that's what the mission was - to follow the seeder ships, so that it was in range of both the way-far-out gates and the Milky Way/Pegasus/whatever networks, to allow Ancients many millennia after its launch to explore the new planets the seeder ships found. Or did I just assume that and think they said it explicitly?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I think we're both right, though it should be said that all of this has come from Rush and may or may not be accurate.
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