Now that we all have seen Revenge of the Sith by now, does anyone think Order 66 was the end of all the Jedi? Granted, while many of the more prominent ones were killed, there had to have been at least some who survived beyond just Yoda and Obi-Wan. (although probably not as powerful as either of them)
As for Palpatine and Vader,we know from the Expanded Universe that both of them had their apprentices that they took on, such as the Emperor's Hands
[ June 05, 2005, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Topher ]
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
Not everyone has seen it--this needs a $poiler warning.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
I still haven't seen Revenge of the Sith, but I doubt that Order 66 was the end of all of the Jedi. I think the EU says a few more Jedi made it into hiding besides just Yoda and Obi-Wan, but the standards rules of beware what's canonical apply. Just as far as the movie is concerned, there could have been Jedi on deep-space missions or were sick and stayed home from work and school on the day that Order 66 was executed.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Also, in a somewhat surprising twist, ROTS shows that the Clone Wars are actually a relatively minor conflict from the galactic point of view - so minor that there's debate as to whether the Republic side should still bother to fight or just call it quits. Either Dooku's grandiose "10,000 Separationist systems" promises in AOTC never quite materialized, or then 10,000 out of millions just isn't that big a deal.
Sure, the surviving Jedi may have had their hands full with the remaining sieges. But it's just as possible that the Republic was pretty much back to business as usual, and that many Jedi were on assignments where there were no clone troopers to accompany - or backstab - them. ROTS shows that the Jedi aren't necessarily needed for on-the-spot leadership, as special clones capable of initiative are now leading the troops; the Force users could thus be back to their usual mischief as lone troubleshooters.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
Could someone explain to me why it is that the Clone troopers were so willing to execute Order 66? From what I have read, especially the biography of Commander Gree on the official Star Wars web site, there were clones who were developing individual personalities. Wouldn't these individuals have questioned Order 66 and refused to obey in loyalty to their Jedi co-warriors? The movie portrayed every clone warrior as a mindless automaton no better than the drones they were created to fight.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
Well obviously the command had been hard-wired into their psyche so that morality or ethics never entered into it, the clones didn't even change the pitch of their voice from that of regular speech, just "Affirmitive" or "Roger".
The book/movie(s) "The Manchurian Candidate" comes to mind.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I watched Attack of the Clones (not entirely willingly) last night, and the long-necked guy makes a point of mentioning how the clones have been specifically engineered to be more compliant and unquestioning.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
$$$$$$$$$$AllKindsOfWeirdShit$$$$$$$$$$$$$
This is interesting, the RPG "Star Wars - Knights of the Old Republic: Sith Lords" was released to PC/X-Box in December last year. In about the middle of the game, when you've gotten enough influence with your assassin droid HK-47, you can get advice from him about the best ways to kill Jedi (something the droid has had much practice with).
Now, the first line made me think that the script-writers at Obsidian Entertainment had gotten some briefing from Lucasfilm and Lucasarts about "Jedi Vs. Friendly Fire" in the upcoming movie.
The second picture makes me think of Yoda and his traumatic episode after feeling his friends and allies die one after the other. This is also what HK-47 recommends: Use mines, traps and bombs on Jedi, no blasters ("If I see another meatbag go at a Jedi with a blaster I'll kill him myself."), and the best ways to affect Jedi (not Sith) is by killing or endangering their friends, loved ones and allies, playing on their self-sacrifice and compassion.
47 is a naughty droid.
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
Naughty, but effective in his analysis. Using their strengths against them is a sound, if sometimes hard to pull off, strategy.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Some (on other DBs) question whether Order 66 was an implanted "command" or simply the case of soldiers "just following orders..."
I prefer the thought that it was a hardwired hypnotic suggestion.
Has anyone read much of C.J. Cherry's work? She's created a vast science ficition universe that uses clones extensively for varous slave/menial, assistants, troops and colonization labor.
These clones, or Azi, all have individual personalities, yet they also have specific conditioning trained and integrated into them via chemical and hypnotic/deep probe methods.
The clone troopers might be similar. Individual personalities may be an expected side-effect.
Boba is a clone but he obviously has a distinct personality. One of the advantages of growing up naturally vs. accelerated aging.
Back on topic...
The way the movie had Obi-Wan reprogram the distress signal into a warning beacon left open the idea of other Jedi surviving and going into hiding.
I always assumed Ben and Yoda were the last of the Jedi, but there is no direct evidence to support this assumption.
There may be others hiding.
Some of these others may have been discovered by Vader and the Emperor in the 20 years between Episodes III and IV. After all, Ben tells Luke that Vader "Helped the Emperor hunt down and destroy the Jedi."
Margaret Weis wrote a SciFi series called the Star of the Guardian series. There is a Vader-esque character in this series that is hunting down and killing Jedi Knight type of characters that he used to be a member of.
With the television series coming being set in the time period between Episodes III and IV, I wouldn't be suprised if some of this eventually is revealed.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
It seems simplest to assume that the clone troopers are capable of normal human types of independent thought and subsequently of ethical analysis, but have been ingrained with an overwhelming sense of duty to their chain of command. And that chain just happens to have Darth Sidious at the very top...
It's the fault of the Jedi for not asking, really.
"So, uh, Jango, how's it feel, being a clone?"
"Fine, just fine. Happy to serve, sir. And thank you for tourniqueting that leg, sir."
"Umm. You're welcome, son. Uh. You never find the job too demanding or anything? Never want to have a day off?"
"No sir. I live to serve. By the way, sir, have you seen my left arm anywhere? There's a blaster attached, and the Sarge says those are expensive."
"Ah, no. So you never have a problem with me ordering you to these things?"
"No sir, not in the slightest. I know that you are only following orders, too. But could you wipe the blood from my visor, sir? If it's not too intrusive, I mean. It's a bit of a chore without hands, is all."
"Well, yes, orders. I know the Council may sometimes seem a bit harsh-"
"Council?"
"The Jedi Council. My superiors."
"Oh. So they are sort of go-betweens between the Sith Lord and you? I mean, we grunts don't always get it straight, this organization stuff. It's simpler for us - there's Sarge for most things on the field, and then there's you for ordering these charges against the enemy fortresses, and then there's Darth Sidious for the big stuff."
"Darth... Sidious?"
"The hooded fellah. Supreme Commander. You know, the- Uh-oh. Sir, if you might, my heart seems to need a litt.. Urg. Nevr mnd sr."
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
Are you sure that was his heart failing and not anything with his windpipe? :.)
Seriously, it has to have been a very specific and extremely covert procedure that was done to the clones to make them do what they did during order 66. Think about it, the hundreds of thousands of government workers, authorities and military staff that controlled the army and the clones would never have stood for special brainwash-dispensations giving someone at the top the power to start a genocide without authorization or hesitation, the republic was still a democracy when the clones were incorporated into it.
Furthermore, it would've been one thing if the clones were simply extremely obedient in all cases and would shoot a puppy without asking if even a jedi told them to, but that would make them vulnerable to counter-orders as well.
No, Palpatine didn't call up the clones and say "See that high-ranking jedi general in your unit? Kill him.", he merely said "order 66" and the clones immediately knew who to target and what level of force to implement.
Especially Commander Cody, who had saved Kenobi's saber and bantered with him in the cruiser hanger, wouldn't have ordered Kenobi "shot down" in a calm and prompt manner had it not been a subconscious decision. Although it was strange the way the gunner went along with it too, without having heard the order himself.
I can't really imagine the kaminoans going along with it either, they are neutral and also seemed very impressed with Kenobi when he visited.
We don't know anything about clone conditioning procedures in SW, of course. It might be standard routine for the kaminoans to at least incorporate a "kill switch" in all clones so the owners can have the ultimate power in case something would go wrong, and perhaps the implementation of order 66 was snuck in by Dooku or Palpatine as just programming code, which the kaminoans dutifully submitted to the computers.
Since it was called "order 66" (omen?) there probably were all sorts of other commands as well, like in the "Command & Conquer: Red Alert"-games; 'return to base' or 'retreat'.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
This whole conversation fuels my belief that Sidious was Master Sifo Dias all along and that it was he who ordered the clones. Most likely, Sifo Dias was just a mass hallucination. All the Jedi know he was alive and on the council and that he died abotu 10 years ago... but know one really knows the specifics.
If Sideous had direct involvement in ordering the clones, it would have been easier for him to slip in all kinds of easter eggs. If the request to slip a kill-the-Jedi command into their mind's was questioned, any answer would've been alot more convincing coming from a Jedi. "Well, this is just in case one of my brethren decide to use their unit to do something bad. You know... like appoint himself Emperor."
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
I think it's more likely Sifo Dias was a real Jedi who happened to be killed on a mission, and then Dooku took that as his opportunity to impersonate Sifo Dias and place the order for the clone army.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Hmmm... that could be too. Or maybe Palpatine made sure he was killed on a mission in order to impersonate him. That's why there was some confusion about the time line among Obi Wan, Windu, and Yoda.
Posted by kiltedbear (Member # 1138) on :
As for the Jedi not gathered up in Palpatine's initial sweep, I think some also had to have been turned to the dark side.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Why sayeth you that?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well, I'm still here and...
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: This whole conversation fuels my belief that Sidious was Master Sifo Dias all along and that it was he who ordered the clones. Most likely, Sifo Dias was just a mass hallucination. All the Jedi know he was alive and on the council and that he died abotu 10 years ago... but know one really knows the specifics.
If Sideous had direct involvement in ordering the clones, it would have been easier for him to slip in all kinds of easter eggs.
That calls into question some seriously evil programming and collboration with Palpaltine on the part of the Kaminoloids though.
It's not as though they would have installed a program into the clones to "kill all the Jedi" if they were being paid by the Jedi Counci (through Sifodias).
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
It needn't have been a "kill all the Jedi" program. It could've simply been a "kill the Jedi in charge of your unit" command, which could have been made to seem like a perfectly reasonable safety feature in the event that a Jedi tried to use the clones for something e-vil. And coming from a Jedi council member, it would seem even *more* reasonable.
Further clean-up of Jedi stragglers could have been done after Episode 3 using clones or other means.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
Jason:
quote:It's not as though they would have installed a program into the clones to "kill all the Jedi" if they were being paid by the Jedi Counci (through Sifodias).
It was just the one kaminoan, he'd just gotten his two week notice.
Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :
Aban: I had thought the same thing too. What havoc could a turned Jedi do with an elite unit of stormtroopers who might possess sensitive information and training?
And am I wrong in remembering in Dark Empire that Leia was given a holocron by an underground force-sensitive being?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Well, there are apparently Force sensatives all over the place, at least according to what I know about the books. Especially after the fall of the Jedi, it makes sense that they'd grow up to be things other than Jedi.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Not that it's canon, perse, and it's obviously well before the timeline of the movies, but in KOTOR there was a non-Jedi (though Jedi trained) force-user living in obscurity on the rim. Given the breadth of the SW universe, I can't imagine his story is unique.
Also Kenobi's line in ANH, "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights." for all its misdirection has always, at least to me, seemed to imply more than the one-day youngling & temple rampage Annakin goes on while the rest of the Jedi get shot in the back. What is it, 18 years or so before Ep 4? That's a lot of time for Vader to make a name for himself as Darth Vader hunting down the stragglers.
quote:Nim' was all: Since it was called "order 66" (omen?) there probably were all sorts of other commands as well, like in the "Command & Conquer: Red Alert"-games; 'return to base' or 'retreat'.
One could go so far as to assume that there are orders 1-65 with speculation about what those do. I imagine all sorts of safeguards and backdoors would be installed for the clone troopers if only to ensure that a force so powerful could not be easily misdirected (as a few people have already suggested).
My only problem with Palpatine being Sifo Dias in disguise is that it takes away from my brilliant pet theory that it was, in fact, the Jedi (or some well-intentioned faction of the Jedi) that ordered the clone army anticipating the need for such a force against the separatists. Which justifies Palpy's concerns about the Jedi wanting to take over and perhaps makes the Jedi a little less perfect. I'm not sure about the economics of the Old Republic, but I imagine sponsoring a clone army on that scale would require V A S T resources.
Posted by kiltedbear (Member # 1138) on :
I was basing my assumption on that a few characters from the DF 2 computer game have on their bios that they were once Jedi who betrayed the order and turned to the dark side
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nim': Jason:
quote:It's not as though they would have installed a program into the clones to "kill all the Jedi" if they were being paid by the Jedi Counci (through Sifodias).
It was just the one kaminoan, he'd just gotten his two week notice.
He was bitter because the other cloners made fun of his short (only 18" long) neck.
Posted by RLF (Member # 1396) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
quote:Originally posted by Nim': Jason:
quote:It's not as though they would have installed a program into the clones to "kill all the Jedi" if they were being paid by the Jedi Counci (through Sifodias).
It was just the one kaminoan, he'd just gotten his two week notice.
He was bitter because the other cloners made fun of his short (only 18" long) neck.
Ah, neck envy. The root cause of so many troubles.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I think the Kaminoloids would be the best cosplay dressers ever- long necks, weird voices, giant eyes...
They just need to grow some pink and blue plants to stick on their heads and they're all set.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
How old was Luke supposed to have been in IV? I recall him talking about applying for the academy or some such and had been left behind for a couple of seasons. In my mind, I had always thought of him as 20 or so at the time the Metalheads answer to Laurel & Hardy showed up. That's two decades of hiding for any Jedi that survived their personal Pearl Harbors.
I do think its odd that when Luke shows up that Ben seems to have little REAL interest in him and that Luke didn't seem to know much about him at all. I would've thought that Obi would have checked in a LOT more often. Also, it seemed obvious that Vader thought that Padme had died BEFORE giving birth. If that is the case did he just assume that Luke Skywalker was his (he could have been from another family member) or did the Force lead him to that conclusion. If the force was the way he knew Luke for his own little squirt, then why didn't he also know Leia? Afterall, he was around her much longer than he was around Luke.
Why wasn't Yoda watching over Leia? We see female Jedi, so why wasn't she considered worth watching? I certainly don't think sitting in a swamp for 20 years is accomplishing much. And saying that he was viewing from afar?
ALso, the "lessons" YOda had for Obi, to learn how to communicate from BEYOND....amazingly Anakin didn't need any such lessons to pop up again, so why mention it? Especially if you don't even have Qui show up at that perfect moment?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I believe Luke was supposed to be 20.
Who says Yoda wasn't watching Leia? He reminded Obi Wan of her potential.
In the EU, Vader does some investigating about the young pilot who destroyed the first Death Star, finds out who he his, and then starts this huge hunt for him having learned that he is his son. He had no such reason to start looking for Leia because even Padme apparently didn't know she was having twins.
Maybe Yoda or Obi Wan got in touch with Anakin after his departure and helped him on the path.
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
Or as suggested, maybe Qui-Gon had been sort of working on Anakin/Vader? Or perhaps Vader somehow found some writings on the issue of "immortality" (which I'd call more of an ascendence then anything...) from either Qui-Gon's quarters or the Jedi Temple computer systems?
As to Order 66, I too, agree that it was likely hard-wired in to the minds of the 'Troopers. Likely as a described failsafe by Darth Sidious/Sifo Dias to the Kimonoans. Kinda scary how quickly those 'Troopers turned on the Jedi and how easy it seemed for them.
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
Wouldn't the Jedi have, after discovering the existence of this clone army, investigated the training completed in the first ten years of the program and supervised the training during the Clone Wars? And, if their investigations proved an inherent danger in the training, wouldn't the Jedi then take remedial actions to correct the flaw?
For me, in other words, I can't believe the Jedi are this incompetent. I grew up with the idea that the Jedi were very competent and effective protectors of the Republic who were betrayed in the end by one of their own. I never thought the Jedi were as they are shown in the prequels. As portrayed in these films, I am left to question my previous notions of the Jedi and forced to admit that the Republic was very lucky that the enemies of the nation were either very idiotic or incompetent before Palpatine became chancellor.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Do remember, though, that the Jedi Order of RotS is a shadow of its former glory: many prominent Jedi slaughtered, the precognitive abilities of the remaining Masters hampered by some sort of "jamming field" created by Sidious. Half-trained hotheads like Obi-Wan have to be sent on important assignments. The Senate is at odds with the Jedi on the matter of the Clone Wars, too.
The situation simply may not have allowed for extensive oral examinations of donated equines. And in practice, the clone army did perform exactly as expected in all respects, up to and including the execution of Order 66: utter loyalty and great effectiveness in protecting the interests of the Republic to the best of its ability and understanding.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
Newark: The Jedi were caught unprepared by a carefully planned and brilliantly executed domestic conspiracy and as the Sith have a weakness in understanding the value of Jedi selflessness, sacrifice and character (which was how Luke beat Palpatine, by sparing Vader) the Jedi are vulnerable to Sith subterfuge and lack of scruples.
Really, Palpatine's campaign and pet project was more successful than even Baron Harkonnen's obliteration of the Atreides in the first Dune-novel. But as the Baron missed Paul Atreides and his pregnant mom, Palpatine missed the Skywalker kids and paid through the nose. Overconfidence was the villain of the piece in both cases.
I wouldn't say the Jedi Council as of Ep.I-III was incompetent or overly proud, they simply had trouble adapting to the different threats when being faced with troubles on several fronts at once, orchestrated by someone well-versed in their ways and predicting their behavior at every step of the way, to the point of Anakin's warning delivering the heads (no pun intended) of the Jedi Order to Palps in his own home.
Though that part of the movie was heavy for me, I can sort of understand and forgive the Emperor's elation and giggling at the time of facing Yoda; I'd probably be that giddy myself when actually thinking about what a great day this turned out to be.
The fall of the Jedi felt just as inevitably and helplessly effective as those "Twilight Zone" episodes where a guy learns of his future death, does everything he can to avoid it only to find himself in just the spot he'd foreseen because he'd tried to avert it (usually in the path of a moving truck).
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
The existance of the Clone Army was discovered just as the Separatists kicked off a major campaign, if you'll recall. Episode II was essentially the beginning of the Clone Wars, after all and the army had only just been discovered when the incident on Geonosis occured. There was likely very little time to send a group of Jedi to do any in-depth analysis of the overall program, let alone the computer programs likely used to educate the clone troopers.
I'm also still having problems accepting that Obi-Wan and Yoda were the last of the Jedi. I could see the majority of the Jedi being wiped out, but surely there were others as good as Obi-Wan or better who would have been in a good enough position so that they could have gotten away from the Troopers. Then there are those on single-person missions, as already mentioned. Just doesn't track w/me.
As an aside: I still feel cheated that they're called the Clone Wars and then Lucas turns things around on us and has the Clones be the good guys. I think a more appropriate title for those wars would have been "Separatists Wars" or something similar. Secessionist Wars?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
One of the theories about the upcoming live action television series is that it will deal in part with some of the surviving Jedi being hunted down by Vader.
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
As shown in the PM, individual planets and organizations had their versions of a standing military. While the Jedi investigated the training of their new charges, couldn't these entities been encouraged to combine their forces and confront the threat?
And, if the Separatists can field such a large army without the approval of the Senate, what was preventing the worlds of the Republic from doing the same? It seems before the introduction of the clone military that the Republic was devoid of any military. I don't buy it.
The Republic is an intergalactic political entity. It has vast stores of wealth and the life styles of the richest worlds is oppulent by the best standards. And wouldn't there exist a situation akin to what happened between the Roman empire and the Goths where the latter desired a share of this empire? So, to protect the riches of the Republic, wouldn't there need to be a standing army as occured in ancient Rome? The Jedi would be incapable of fighting a large army. Though they have Force-sensitive powers, these powers are limited and are largely ineffective against even a platoon of troops as seen in the third episode. If the Jedi were the sole protectors, the Republic wouldn't have lasted a 1000 years. (I know the second film mentioned the last war occured this many years ago. Yet, even on our world, in a thousand years of history, we have had many wars, small and large. In our country alone, in this last century, we have had six wars.)
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
It's entirely possible that there was some sort of military in place for the Republic during all three prequels, but it had been outgrown by the number of worlds joining in the Republic. It's been stated in a number of works - tho I don't recall a specific canon mention - that the Republic at the time of Plapatines rise to power was a thick, bloated thing. Remember in TPM how it was mentioned that it would take a great deal of time to convince the Senate to build an army to go deal w/the Trade Federations attack on Naboo? I think that's a perfect example of how much the bureacracy had become weighed down in it's own red tape. Combine this w/the "no wars for a thousand years" thinking, "the Jedi are the protectors of the Republic" and you have a military that's likely not much more than a police force and in much need of reworking to be a true military power for a thousand worlds. So, any official Republic military would have been little good in dealing w/the Separatists, most likely.
On the issue of the Jedi being the "sole protectors of the Repulic": Supposedly, at one point there were literally thousands of Jedi. The primary role of the Jedi was to stop things before they escalated in to open warfare. Things had slowly deteriorated w/the Jedi over the last several hundred years, for whatever reason, I guess, and their numbers started to dwindle a bit? Maybe Sidious had been working on slowly eradicating them for longer than just these prequels. It's entirely possible he engineered a number of situations wherein Jedi were sent to investigate, but were killed and reports of it being an accident were sent out to the Jedi Council. Recruits such as Maul & Dooku might have had a hand in some of those deaths, as well.
Just some thoughts on the issue....
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
quote: As an aside: I still feel cheated that they're called the Clone Wars and then Lucas turns things around on us and has the Clones be the good guys. I think a more appropriate title for those wars would have been "Separatists Wars" or something similar. Secessionist Wars?
Well, it would be understandable from the POV of Leia Organa to call the conflict the Clone Wars in a message to Obi-Wan Kenobi, for at least two reasons: first, the Clones were the real enemies of Kenobi in the end, and served evil interests; and second, most of the Rebel allies at the time would no doubt be former Separatists anyway.
Of course, it is also possible that the Separatist war was just the first of the wars involving the clone army, and that subsequent wars in the "ongoing series" involved General Kenobi fighting under Bail Organa against the Imperial Clones. This would not be a continuity violation, since there is no story requirement for Ben to lie low at Tatooine the whole intervening time, or Bail to fight a "low-profile" war (as long as his Bruce Wayne persona stays unblemished, his Batman can deploy mighty armies in successively more hopeless battles just fine).
Forgetting the EU for the moment, the expression "Clone Wars" is only used twice in the series, really: once when Leia sends her message, and later/earlier when Yoda orates his "Begun, the Clone Wars have" bit. The second/first usage is frankly rather idiotic. What is Yoda really saying, and why? Is he making some sort of a Force prophecy about there being many wars involving clones from now on? Well, duh! Is he coining a phrase in the hopes that he'll get royalties? Why not say something slightly less asinine, like "Begun for no good reason, endless wars no doubt have" or "Mark my words: down the drain, the Republic now descend will"? Yoda's introducing of the Clone Wars phrase in that manner, at that time, really jars with realism.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
I disagree. If someone were hiding/in exile from Vader and the Emperor, they wouldn't be a general leading anyone's army. That's too high profile of a position for the last few Jedi to be in.
No, it makes most sense that Kenobi hid out for those twenty years. Anything else would open him up for capture/execution by Vader and the Emperor.
The Clone Wars was mentioned at least one more time on screen. When Luke is in Ben's house, he asks "You fought in the Clone Wars?" Kenobi's reply "Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight and so was your father."
This comment also establishes a mental connection between Clone Wars and Jedi Knights.
There have been other wars throughout Earth history that didn't describe all the combatants involved. The French and Indian war was NOT between the French and the Indians, but described the combatants on the same side.
The Hundred Years War lasted longer than 100 years.
The War of the Roses was not waged against plants.
The Whiskey Rebellion described the cause of the fight, not the location or contestants.
The Southern supporters referred to the Civil War as the Second American Revolution.
So, it's not unusual for a war's name to be a little misleading, especially to an outsider.
History is written by the victors. It's plausible the Emperor/Empire made The Clone Wars the common/accepted name for this conflict.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
That's the strange thing about it, really.
1) It was Yoda who coined the name.
2) The Emperor would be doing himself something of a disfavor by emphasizing the clone aspect. Shouldn't he be reminding the populance that the war rid the galaxy of the evil Jedi? Or that it preserved the integrity of the Republic, making it into the Empire? "Jedi Rebellion", "Droid War" or "Secession Crisis" would be logical names for him to choose. Especially since clones don't seem to feature heavily in the military of the Empire after the wars, and thus their mention doesn't evoke positive patriotic feelings in modern Empire subjects.
Then again, perhaps rebellious sentiments were common on Tatooine, and the politically incorrect Jedi name for the wars was commonly used in the Lars household, just as it was used on Alderaan?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
quote:Originally posted by HerbShrump: The Southern supporters referred to the Civil War as the Second American Revolution.
Never heard that one. I always heard it as the War of Northern Aggression. (Note: I grew up in Georgia, but I didn't hear the Civil War referred to as the above until I was in my 20's.)
I would imagine "Clone War" would be the popular way of referring to the war later when the Empire is oppressive and in disfavor among the population, but not necessarily before.
Thinking about it some, I can see a few reasons why you would refer to a war that way. One is although Yoda was doing his duty for the Republic, he didn't seem to pleased about going to war. Some people in the US that disagree with the War on Terror refer to it as the Bush War.
Another is sometimes some aspect of a war is so new or different that it gets refered to that way. I've heard the first Gulf War refered to many different ways, including the CNN War, the Iraq Mini-Series, and the First Air War. Similarly, having a clone army may be so different that that's how it's remembered.
B.J.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by B.J.: Never heard that one. I always heard it as the War of Northern Aggression. (Note: I grew up in Georgia, but I didn't hear the Civil War referred to as the above until I was in my 20's.)
I shoulsn't have used caps as if that was a real name. I toured one of those historical sites a few years ago in Indiana. They had cabins and houses from the 1800s there. On display in the houses were letters and other common elements of the time period. The letter on display was describing the Revolution, yet the date was the 1860s.
I think the letter was from someone in KY, which was a border state favorable to the South. Struck me as odd that they were referring to it as the Revolution.
War of Northern Aggression is another good example, however.
Yoda mentioned the term Clone War. Perhaps others came up with the idea as well.
Perhaps the Imperial Propagandists wanted to emphasize the victors. Focus attention on the Clone troopers and don't mention the Jedi. Maybe in time they planned to rewrite history so that it was Clones vs. Jedi all along and this whole Separatists nonsense would be forgotten/downplayed.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"There have been other wars throughout Earth history that didn't describe all the combatants involved. The French and Indian war was NOT between the French and the Indians, but described the combatants on the same side."
But, I think the point is that the French and Indians didn't call it "the French and Indian War".
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by HerbShrump: The War of the Roses was not waged against plants.
yet. Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
The South shall rise again....as soon as the Viagra arrives.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
Yoda actually said "Begun, this clone war has." War is not plural, as it is later used by Leia and Obi-Wan. And when Yoda mentions it is appears to be more of a descriptive name than the proper name of the conflict.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I definitely have to rewatch "AotC" some day. I remembered Yoda using the "classic" plural, googled (actually, altavistaed) the phrase, and got 10,347 hits, and decided I must be remembering it right.
The singular is a bit better, yeah. It still means Yoda has mastered the Jedi art of stating the painfully obvious. Or did Yoda think the war would have been avoidable or abortable right until the moment when the first Republic cruisers took off, and thus wanted to demarcate the moment with this profound comment?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
There's a couple of things that bug me about the clones.
1. Were they really going to be for the republic? If so then why was the template Jango Fett and why did Dooku oversee their creation? Aren't they sepratists?
2. According to SW: The Essential Chronology, during the New Republic's war with Admiral Thrawn, the NR was shocked at the fact that his stormtroopers were clones. Considering Ep.III why was this discovery so shocking? The only explanation I can think of is that the number of clone troopers dwindled for some reason and the technology and know-how to make more was lost or destroyed, so the empire recruited normal people after that. Somehow Thrawn regained that knowledge, justifying the New Republic's shock?
Bah! and I thought Star Trek continuity was bad.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
Jango Fett was a freelancing mercenary working for Dooku, Dooku was working for Darth Sidious on the project of creating and motivating a "big bad enemy" that could justify creating a grand army of the Republic as a response, secretly slaved to the whims of Sidious. Dooku had no real love or support for the separatist movement, they were just the bait (like Assaj Ventress was a spur for Anakin to move towards the Dark Side).
It's an age-old trick, like in "Wag the dog", you create a crisis or an enemy to distract people from real issues and control their opinion.
By the way, Jango Fett would probably qualify as the least politically engaged person in their galaxy. As for his template, it was purely for physical and mental reasons, he was a battle-hardened veteran trained in the mandalorian ways, with stamina and resolve to put him on the top of the food chain.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"According to SW: The Essential Chronology, during the New Republic's war with Admiral Thrawn, the NR was shocked at the fact that his stormtroopers were clones. Considering Ep.III why was this discovery so shocking? The only explanation I can think of is that the number of clone troopers dwindled for some reason and the technology and know-how to make more was lost or destroyed, so the empire recruited normal people after that."
The only explanation I can think of is that that book was written before episode III was, and now it's been made obsolete.
[ June 12, 2005, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: TSN ]
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Then again, Clone Wars were a feature of the SW universe before the first Thrawn books were written - they were mentioned in ANH already. But it probably wasn't until the story pitching for AotC began in earnest that it was decided for good that there had been clone armies involved. Until then, we might have thought that Obi-Wan was a general in a war fought against a planet where mad scientists were only threatening to create (gasp!) clones of sentient beings. Or then we misheard, and the valiant fight was about ridding the galaxy of evil entertainers.
Personally, and not being a follower of the EU, I'd like to think that "Sifo Dyas" was merely an alias for Sidious, who'd been wearing several personae to slowly build his plan.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I think the pural "Clone Wars" relates to the fact that the war was fought on a great many fronts against more than just a single opponent. Rather it was a series of wars, across hundreds or thousands of planets. It's not a perfect answer, but then how often to commonly used terms go through a logic-checker? Still, it sort of makes sense.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Ah, like World Wars II.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Probably more like (as someone mentioned somewhere recnetly) the French and Indian War(s). I've heard both terms used.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, I am just mirth-making.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
It's also worth noting that Lucas specifically prohibited anyone from tackling the Clone Wars in novels because he knew they were important to the main story and wanted to do them himself (presumably). So Lucas knew they were more than just a throwaway line even early on.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
The gulf wars will be recognized as such from a sufficient historical vantage.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
...At least until the Gulf of Mexico becomes theater for bloody combat, and somebody is forced to acknowledge that "Gulf" isn't the most geographically precise pointer imaginable.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
I think everyone had their own little picture of what the Clone Wars could be, but I confess that I also had assumed the clones would be the filthy attackers, spawned by some evil faction, the soldiers perhaps having vials in their foreheads and tubes in their necks or something, but I think the final solution was a good compromise.