The three things I love in life: Star Wars, Video Games, and Star Wars Video Games. But this question has been on my mind lately. Are Star Wars video games considered canon? Since all Star Wars games are made by LucasArts, which is a company George Lucas owns, does that make anything featured in these game officially part of the universe? Or are they more in the realm of the EU?
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
With Trek, it's the Series, Movies, and technical manuals based directly off the series and movies- The cartoon series is never included in canon. Novels, games and other anything else is non. Since Lucas does have full control over the games, mayhaps? I would say no- Unless George also comes out and blesses the game and flicks some water on it and announces that all shall consider it part of the Star Wars Universe.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
In a word: Fuck No.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Considering the games of the movies seem to disagre on what happened in those movies...
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I'm pretty sure that the overall storylines of *some* of the games are meant to fit in with the movies and be a "real" part of the universe. For instance, the events in the game, "Shadows of the Empire" happened, but the fact that the main character died 50 times and was miraculously resurrected over and over again to continue the adventure, didn't happen. "Shadows" was always meant, as far as I know, to be the movie that was never made and thus, all of it's elements were meant to work into real universe.
Obviously, the games that allow you to replay the movies are not canon and should be considered on an ElseWorlds level.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Wait, was "Shadows" a game or a novel first? Because I have the book, but I don't remember a game.
quote:...all Star Wars games are made by LucasArts...
Not quite. Sure, they've made most of them since they've been around, but they certainly didn't make the first games, like the vector graphics one where you ran the trench run 50 times. (You want that one canon, too?)
B.J.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Hell yes: the Empire had a Death Star mass production line- at least 100 stations and the TIE fighters werre all using some new weapon that looked like a pom-pom was thrown at your ship...
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
"Shadows" was a game, a novel and a comic book series all at the same time. As I recall, they worked as independant stories themselves, but you had to give George Lucas your money for all of them in order to get the whole story.
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
Kyle Katarn is a good example of a game growing into about as near as canon as can be.
Kyle's now a fairly regular Jedi, getting mentioned in the New Jedi Order, getting a line or two some where near the end, and actually shown interacting with everyone else in the Dark Nest trilogy, after the NJO.
Posted by Ozu (Member # 1778) on :
There is no definitive answer to the question. Some of the games are indeed directly tied into the main fiction as behind the scenes sub-plots (like Republic Commando, which follows a "special ops" team of clone troopers up to the battle of Kashyyk featured in Ep. 3). Others, however, are simply there to try to recreate one element of the SW universe to provide fun for the player (read "simply there to annoyingly redundantly recreate the Hoth battle sequence or Death Star trench run to fatten the Lucasarts treasury and milk the consumer"). The SW franchise has been shamelessly exploited on everything from toothebrushes to BK cups, and the games are no exception. Every now and then they release a good one that ties into the "real" story, like Republic Commando, the Rogue Squadron series, or Knights of the Old Republic (although this is debatable as they take place 5000 years before the films). They also, however, have released completely backwards nonsensical steamy piles of gaming crap, like Jedi Power Battle (picture Street Fighter with Luke and horrible physics/controls).
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
How is the concept of Jedi Power Battle an exploitation of the franchise? Leave the game quality, and the crappy name aside. It's just a fight game that lets you fight as Star Wars characters with their weapons and powers. So? It's obviously not supposed to tie in with the movie continuity.
If the game quality sucks, than the developers should've done a better job, but that doesn't mean the concept exploits the franchise.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Star Wars games > Star Wars movies
Posted by Brown_supahero (Member # 83) on :
Grrrrr.... I have beef with anyone who says the Clone Wars cartoon is not canon.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
TOPACE.PLT > LUKE SKYWALKER
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
I've played Kotor 1 and in the process of finishing off Kotor 2, that game is so damn confusing it gives me migranes, it's not hard to play, but the storyline makes my head nearly explode. that and there's a few bugs, definately not one of Lucasarts better titles. The Dark Forces and Jedi knight series, i agree are very close to canon, I started reading the NJO books last week, i'm nearly done Star By Star. Only two chapters left, and i started it yesterday.
I'm not sure if Lucas has an active role in the production of these games, but I'm sure that he reads the scripts and approves the story before the game is made. Who knows, he may even play the odd game when he's not too busy making money.
The only recent games I've played were Battlefronts 1 and 2. I've played many of the older ones such as TIE Fighter, X-Wing, a little bit of XW vs TF, Dark forces 1, 2, Jedi Knight 1, 2, and 3 (Jedi Academy) Star Wars Rebellion (it's a good game really!)Shadows, Rogue Squadron. and I'm sure there two or three i can't remember right now.
As for the clone wars cartoon, it has tie ins to the movies so it must be canon, for example: I wondered why General Greivous was hacking and wheezing through the movie, and I found out why by watching clone wars.
Cartman, is TOPACE your X-Wing Alliance pilot?
My pilot, Ooga Magooga is better than Luke Skywalker, Wedge Antilles, and Darth Vader all rolled into one. He's personally vaped more TIEs than all of Rogue Squadron combined.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Da_bang80: I'm not sure if Lucas has an active role in the production of these games, but I'm sure that he reads the scripts and approves the story before the game is made.
Actually, he's said that with the exception of Zahn's Heir to The Empire trilogy, he has not kept up (as he was too busy making the best movies EVAR!).
Lucas has said that nothing outside the movies is official- then many lucasarts sources said otherwise.
Who ya gonna belive there? Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Never mind. TOPACE RULZ1
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I've never understood the almost desperate need to define something that you like as being "canon". I like the computer games et al, but making a list where TIE Fighter is put above KOTOR but below Heir to the Empire because that's the oder you like them is pointless.
quote:Originally posted by Brown_supahero: Grrrrr.... I have beef with anyone who says the Clone Wars cartoon is not canon.
But, they're not. I mean, I like them. A lot. But Lucus has said that the movies are the only canon, and no sort of whining is going to change that.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
I believe Clone Wars is canon. Tons of details happening exclusively in "Clone Wars" were carried over into the movie, in fact watching it is the only way to get proper backstory for the beginning of Ep.III. The director stood in constant contact with Lucasfim to get everything right. Supposedly they'll be making a 3d-version of CW in 2007 by Lucasfilm Animation.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
If you look at the Star Wars Chronology, which is probably one of the most canon Star Wars books, there is some information about the video games. "Dark Forces," for instance, is mentioned in the chronology and is considered part of the canon. I believe "Shadows of the Empire" is mentioned, but if not, I think the Dash Rendar storyline is also part of the canon.
Other games, such as "Rogue Squadron" and its sequels and the Episode I-III games, I'm not so sure. Since many of them deal with the major characters and not minor ones, it'd be a good bet to say that they're non-canon.
BTW, an interesting bit: Shadows of the Empire was a marketing test for the prequel movies. It was released in 1996 with multiple formats -- a video game, a novel, comic books, toys, a CD, even a "making of" book -- in order to see how it could be done for the future movies. The Special Edition served as a test to see what they could actually put on the screen.
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
In the New versions pf EP 4 we see the Outrider in the distance on Tatooine. Since it's in the movies I would assume that the Dash Rendar storyline is in fact canon. There are other instances where things and characters from the EU were put in the movies to be made canon. The Juggernaught Tank was seen in the closing minutes of EP3. Before EP3 it was considered non-canon since it wasn't mentioned in any of the movies and in only a handful of the books (The Rogue squadron anthology)
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nim: I believe Clone Wars is canon. Tons of details happening exclusively in "Clone Wars" were carried over into the movie, in fact watching it is the only way to get proper backstory for the beginning of Ep.III.
Which makes only those details (which apparently were contradicted in other "prequel to ROTS" book) canon. Just like seeing Outrider in ANH doesn't automatically make entire "Shadows of the Empire" canon.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Exactly: the Outrider is piloted by Darth Edward Penishands in ANH- a evil cyborg clone of the original, of course.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Clone Wars is perhaps a bit unique, as it was written (the second season especially) to lead up to the third movie. Which makes it as close to canon as you're going to get. But as has been repeatedly stated, the only truelly canon stuff in Star Wars is the movies. If George was writing something that he was told would be contradicted by the games/books/t-shirts, he would have gone right over it (the Death Star construction, for instance, which has required some fairly large "fixing" to make it work with the books and the movie). If he were going to write an episode 7 and was told that he couldn't do something because it would conflict with Shadows of the Empire, he would not care. That, to me, makes it non-canon.
And using the Outrider's appearence to argue for the canonicity of SOTE makes as much sense as arguing that the Enterprise was honestly and truelly visiting Coroscuant during Episode 1. (BTW, where abouts in the film is that? I've never seen it.)
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
It was in the dusk scene after Binks says "Gungans get pasted too, eh?", behind the bloated bun of Padme's hair, lots of merchant traffic passing on in the sky. It isn't really a ship but two ships that, when seen overlapping eachother, look like the engineering and saucer section of the Sovereign.
And anyway, since the Outrider was a conscious decision and the Sovereign-ghost was not, I'd say it ranks higher, but I see your point.
I have to say, though, that the prequels have been very generous in incorporating things from the EU and fans. Yoda's saber design was built by a fan who had shown his homemade hilt to someone on a convention, IIRC, and that someone was with Lucasfilm and managed to get it into the production for AOTC.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Oh yeah, there are lots of nice little homages. But to say that the Outrider was anything more than the ILM guys being "cool" is stretching things too far.
I thought that ILM confirmed they'd stuck the Enterprise in one of the background shots on Coruscant
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
I don't know about that, but the TOS Enterprise is in the rag tag fleet in the BSG mini series.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The "McQuarry Enterprise" zips past Amidallia's office several times on Courscant in episode one. An intentional homage. As is the police car from Blade Riunner in another scene...which would have been funny were it in Attack of the Clones. Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
might be reason enough to watch episode 1 again
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
Why then, I wonder, do we consider things on LCARS screens in "Star Trek" to be canon--when sometimes they are barely to not at all visible--but not the Outrider from ANH?
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Different argument. The Outrider-type ship can be called canon, but that doesn't mean that Dash Rendar and the entire "Shadows" plotline exists.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
One could make the argument that even the movies themselves are not canon. Especially if one were named "Greedo"...
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Veers: Why then, I wonder, do we consider things on LCARS screens in "Star Trek" to be canon
Only if they are actually readable, and even then there can be exceptions (like certain Federation vessel from TNG flying with "diplomatic mission to Alderaan", or Archer's bio from "In the Mirror, Darkly", or [i]USS Pegasus crew "bios" from "These are the Voyages...")
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
Greedo was a woman! and the Tantive IV bridge had a star wars movie poster in it. You'd need a really big tv screen to see it tho.
Posted by Zefram (Member # 1568) on :
For what it's worth, events that take place between Episodes II and III that happen in Battlefront II are listed in the starwars.com database as if they had "actually" occurred in the Star Wars chronology. Additionally, starwars.com states that the fan-created 501st Legion featured in Battlefront II was "adopted into official Star Wars continuity. In 2004, the 501st had roles in two Star Wars books by Timothy Zahn (Survivor's Quest and Fool's Bargain) and continued into Episode III: Revenge of the Sith..." This seems to suggest that novels are included in the Star Wars continuity. However, I suppose the worth of all this depends on how canonical the starwars.com database is considered to be.
quote:Which makes only those details (which apparently were contradicted in other "prequel to ROTS" book) canon.
I did notice some contradictions between the events on Coruscant immediately prior to the start of Episode III as depicted in "Clone Wars" and as told in "Labyrinth of Evil". Specifically, details regarding the attempt to get Palpatine to safety and the encounter between Mace Windu and Grievous were somewhat different.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
Oh yeah, Labirynth of Evil. Thanks.
Regarding Star Wars continuity... It's like that: There are two worlds, Lucas world, which are the movies, and the other world, which is everything else. Those are George Lucas words.
Last year he clarified that further when he said that "they" have decided to have two universes: his universe and "then this other one", just like in Star Trek (yes, he specifically mentions Star Trek).
On the other hand, good people of Lucas Licensing, which is a sub-divison of Lucasfilm tasked with making books and keeping them (and games, and everything else) as consistant with the movies as possible. Sometimes it requires frantic rewriting, like when George Lucas contradicted previuosly estabilished Boba Fett background (and, btw, he thinks Boba died in the ROTJ, but allowed him to "survive" in the books), Death Star construction circumstances, etc.
So, we have two worlds here... one is the movies, which are consistant only with each other, and then there's Expanded Universe, which starts with the assumption that everything described in the books, RPG materials, video games, etc, happened in their Star Wars chronology and works to keep everything consistant with each other.
I guess it all comes down to personal preference... whether you want to EU happening in the same world as movie world or not.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
What about discontinuity IN the movies.
I'm sorry but I still think that the 'older Anakin' should have been left in the ROTJ ghost scene. It was a nice wrap up to confirm that he had indeed returned to the light side... returned to being a Jedi, that Luke's faith that in him was still a good man was the truth.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
So do I, Andrew... so do I.
OK, anyway, replace "consistent" with "mostly consistent" You know, it's the usual thing anyway... we sure know how many Trek episodes are inconsistant with each other, for example...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Well take Voyager itself - it's truly disgusting the amount of internal inconsistancey in the show and sometimes within the ONE EPISODE! Just shabby. They didn't care. By that point did they hire anyone as a continuity checker??
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Regarding Boba's death; I recall hearing Lucas (on one of the DVD commentaries I think) saying that he contemplated filming a coda to the Sarlacc sequence for the special edition, where we see Fett escaping the pit. I wasn't filmed because there's really no place in the movie to put it...unless you stick it at the end of the credits, but Star Wars movies aren't like that. So he doesn't seam opposed to the idea of Fett living beyond RotJ. Also if you look at it logically, the guy is in a heavily armed battle suit loaded with weaponary of all descriptions and he's stuck in a squishy desert worm. It doesn't take much imagination to see him making his way out.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: Regarding Boba's death; I recall hearing Lucas (on one of the DVD commentaries I think) saying that he contemplated filming a coda to the Sarlacc sequence for the special edition, where we see Fett escaping the pit.
"In the case of Boba Fett's death, had I known he was gonna turn into such a popular character, I probably would've made it a little bit more exciting.
Boba Fett was just another one of the minions, another one of the bounty hunters and badguys. But, he became such a favorite of everybody's that, for having such a small part, uh he had a very large presence. And now that his history has been told in the first trilogy, y'know, it makes it even more of a misstep that we wouldn't make more out of the event of his defeat, because most people don't believe he died anyway.
I'd contemplated putting in that extra shot in where he climbs out of the hole, but y'know I figure that's... it doesn't quite fit, in the end."
As far as I can tell, Lucas' all "Fett's dead, baby... Fett's dead."
And I mean, come one, sure, this guy's heavily armed, sure, but without knowing the gory details we can't tell wether he could've escaped or not Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
To me that sounds like - well I'd put in that he was alive if we could fit it in, but we couldn't.
I'm sure there will be more special editions. Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
Oh yeah, and there's still that scene in Cloud City with Han firing first and unprovoked at Vader... it definitely needs changing Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
Um... double post Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
LOL... should have been Greedo in the movies instead of Han. LOL Greedo/Leia love!
"I love you..." "Hoochuuda wadda"
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Well take Voyager itself - it's truly disgusting the amount of internal inconsistancey in the show and sometimes within the ONE EPISODE
Ya know whats really truly disgusting? How star trek managed to weasel it's way into a star wars topic...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
LOL! It's inevitable.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kazeite: Oh yeah, and there's still that scene in Cloud City with Han firing first and unprovoked at Vader... it definitely needs changing
I know! We also need months of stalled talks between the rebels on Yavin IV and teams of galactic weapons inspectors rebuffed before the rebels launch such an unprovoked attack of the Death Star.
...mabye sonething about Palpaltine asking Vader to kill him as a mercy killing for his Alsheimers disease, so Vader is not seen throwing an old man to his death....
...and that scene of Leia kissing Luke HAS TO GO.
It offends my PC Christian morals. Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
And that of Minutiaeman and the other Mac Christians.
quote:he contemplated filming a coda to the Sarlacc sequence for the special edition, where we see Fett escaping the pit. It wasn't filmed because there's really no place in the movie to put it...unless you stick it at the end of the credits, but Star Wars movies aren't like that.
I can totally see it; a slimy, ragged person crawling up along the side of the pit as the credits roll in the foreground. Then, as he grabs the ledge, Martin Crane and Roz walk by while talking and unknowingly step on Fett's hand, causing him to fall back in again.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I like how, in the Star Wars movies, there's no reason to think that Boba Fett is anything other than a bodyguard working for Jabba the Hutt. And yet no one seems to be clamoring for Star Wars product about Weequay or Pig Man #2 or the robotic spider. (Yes, yes, that book where even the weird frog thing gets a short story, I know.)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I would'nt say that- he backtalks Vader! Lets see some imperial say shit like "He's no good to me dead." and then not flinch as Vader turns sharply on him.
I just really really wish they had not dubbed his voice over in the latest edition with the actor that played Jango- Jeremy Brett's chain-smoker rasp made the character of Boba Fett for me.
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
I've been thinking about this canon/non-canon issue for a while now and I've come up with a solution that pleases me. I have decide that everything that has occured in the movies is canon and everything that occurs in the star wars extended universe is also canon, even if george lucas himself says otherwise. The trick is finding a compromise in the descrepencies between the movies and the books. Such as the death star issue. The books claim that the Death Star was designed by Bevel Lemilisk in the Maw installation headed by Grand Moff Tarkin. The movies claim it was designed by those geonosian bug dudes and the CIS. I claim that the Death star was designed by Bevel lemilisk and the bug dudes and then the prototype was created at the maw before the final death star was built of the planet Despayre. Everything included in the movies and the books is still star wars to me. Just like there is no light side or dark side of the Force. It's just the Force, with the dark side being inside the individual. There is no movie Star Wars and EU Star Wars. It's just Star Wars. I don't claim to be the biggest Star Wars geek on the forum (I may very well be, i dunno) But I do claim to be ONE of the biggest Star Wars geeks on this forum. Having read just about every novel at least 4 times.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I think anything with a planet named "Despayre" is so laughably lame that Lucas should shun the expanded universe stuff at all costs.
Posted by Zefram (Member # 1568) on :
quote:I have decide that everything that has occured in the movies is canon and everything that occurs in the star wars extended universe is also canon, even if george lucas himself says otherwise.
Lucas' said that, "There are two worlds here. There�s my world, which is the movies, and there�s this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe�the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don�t intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don�t get too involved in the parallel universe." Lucas Licensing, Ltd.'s Sue Rostini said, "Gospel, or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelizations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers... The entire catalog of published works comprises a vast history�with many off-shoots, variations and tangents�like any other well-developed mythology."
I don't believe that Lucas was saying that the EU didn't "really" happen, but that it has no bearing on those particular stories that he has personally written. Lucas' comments seem to stem from a complete indifference to the EU, which is most dramatically shown by another statement that "I don't read that stuff". I'm under the impression that Lucas created the Star Wars universe to tell the story of Anakin Skywalker, and that's it. Anything outside of Anakin's story has therefore been handed off to other people (e.g. "They don�t intrude on my world, which is a select period of time..."). Having given all authority with regards to the Star Wars universe outside of his six stories to other people, I'm more inclined to listen to their statements regarding what-outside of the movie saga-is canon than anything Lucas has said. The Star Wars universe has grown beyond Lucas, much as the Star Trek franchise grew beyond Gene Roddenberry.
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
I agree. I'm just saying that for me, everything is Star Wars. the books, movies, games, comics and whatever the hell else was made that has that logo on it. For me it's all the same storyline. from even before the prequels such as the Great Hyperspace War, the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War, through the prequels, the original movies, and into the New Republic and the New Jedi order. It's all the same to me. Less headaches that way.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
Even KJA books? Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Boba Fett doesn't sass Darth Vader any more than that one random Imperial does in the first movie, and not the one who gets choked.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mabye "sass" is not the best term- he's not real intimidated by him though. Mabye its' a "I remember you [i]when[/i"] kind of thing.
I think the most imporntant pieces of SW canon are the Christmas special (Boba Fett's first appearance, I think) and the oh-so-shity Droids Cartoon (which is like TAS for Trek, but slightly more believable).
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kazeite: Even KJA books?
I dunno. Possibly, if you didn't have the acronym. It'd be easier for me to list which books I didn't read. That list is far shorter than the list of books I have read.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
What you want to take as being "Star Wars" is entirely up to you. But you can't start arguing about "personal canon", as there is no such thing. Lucus says that the movies are canon (and, more specifically, only the most recent versions of them), and that everything else is in another universe. So they're consistent within themselves, but the movies have no obligation to follow them. That seems, to me, to make them fairly obviously non-canon.
quote:Originally posted by Veers: Why then, I wonder, do we consider things on LCARS screens in "Star Trek" to be canon--when sometimes they are barely to not at all visible--but not the Outrider from ANH?
We don't. If anything, we treat them the same way that stuff from the books is treated. "Oh, isn't this nice extra information that may or may not be true."
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
One more thing: even if Star Wars universe has grown beyond Lucas... so what? Star Trek franchise grew beyond Gene Roddenberry, and Trek books still aren't canon.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Yeah, and until George gets assimilated and installed as Borg ambassador to Earth, his name will be Lucas. Only his wife gets to call him Lucus, in bed. The same place in wich Liam demands to be called "Lord Mountbatten", if I'm not mistaken.
I think "Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight" is pretty deserved of being ranked high in the canon-swamp, as it did have pretty nice and costly cutscenes with great makeup and prosthetics. The actors weren't too shabby either, I've seen three of them (Bennet Guillory, Valerie Wildman and Christopher Neame) in TV shows and stuff both before and after. To me, it ranks just below CW.
Of course, Katarn has never been favored by the movies, only some books.
Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kazeite:
quote:Originally posted by Veers: Why then, I wonder, do we consider things on LCARS screens in "Star Trek" to be canon
Only if they are actually readable, and even then there can be exceptions (like certain Federation vessel from TNG flying with "diplomatic mission to Alderaan", or Archer's bio from "In the Mirror, Darkly", or [i]USS Pegasus crew "bios" from "These are the Voyages...")
Why can we pick and choose? Archer's bio from "In the Mirror, Darkly" was perfectly readable for anyone of us with an HDTV and a DVR or Tivo.
We cant pick and choose what we want to belive -- whats on the screen is canon or it is not. This isnt Christianity and the bible.
zing.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Well that's the point, really. We can pick and choose what we want to believe. It's just that unless we decide that 'canon' means one thing and not another, it becomes a word without value. And the publicly agreed upon definition should probably be the one that Lucas and the producers have set out.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
To me Star Wars is told in the fashion of a myth or legend like Greek mythology. If you know anything about Greek mythology, you know it has several inconsistences and multiple versions of certain stories. In this sense Star Wars has inconsistences because of the epic scale of the stories within the universe and the fact the authors of these stories want to focus more the plot and are not worried about little technical details.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Excpt that comparing Star Wars to Greek Mythology is like comparing a book of cliche's to MacBeth.
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
Star Wars books are MY Bible. Star Wars was sent by the Force itself!
Posted by Zefram (Member # 1568) on :
quote:One more thing: even if Star Wars universe has grown beyond Lucas... so what? Star Trek franchise grew beyond Gene Roddenberry, and Trek books still aren't canon.
My point was that Trek continued in the form of TV shows independent of Roddenberry's direction and, up until the Clone Wars series, Star Wars had been continued in written form, independent of Lucas' direction. Regardless of the form the story took, control of the franchise had been officially handed over to other people.
Isn't the reason why Star Trek books aren't canon because (up until recently) they were still making Trek TV series and movies? I believe that the Trek writers didn't want future episodes or series to be restricted by the novel writers and therefore the books were declared non-canon. In Lucas' case, however, he deliberately limited the time-span and the number of his stories in the Star Wars universe, with no intention of personally continuing the story.
Since Lucas has decided to retire from Star Wars, will the upcoming TV series not be considered canon?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
This is why I want Berman and Braga to do the Star Wars TV series.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
And then we all kicked Jason in the nards.
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
Just kicking? Awww, *drops baseball bat*
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Zefram: My point was that Trek continued in the form of TV shows independent of Roddenberry's direction
Yes, because he passed the mantle to Rick Berman.
quote:and, up until the Clone Wars series, Star Wars had been continued in written form,
So was Star Trek. You are confusing books with TV shows.
quote:Isn't the reason why Star Trek books aren't canon because (up until recently) they were still making Trek TV series and movies?
No. They aren't making any series and movies now, and books still aren't canon.
quote:I believe that the Trek writers didn't want future episodes or series to be restricted by the novel writers and therefore the books were declared non-canon. In Lucas' case, however,
he contradicted Star Wars books several times now.
quote:Since Lucas has decided to retire from Star Wars, will the upcoming TV series not be considered canon?
Maybe. Time will tell.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
It probably will be canon, as it probably will be handled mainly in-house (ILM, Lucasfilm).
Is "Young Indiana Jones" considered canon Joneslore? I think Harrison Ford was in at least the pilot, but then again, Chewie and Fett was in the "Christmas special" and that isn't considered canon.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
I have the Christmas special on tape. I watched about a half hour of it about 7 years ago. I haven't had the courage to go back and finish watching it yet.
B.J.
(My eyes! My eyes! They burn!)
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
It's horrid. Though, if you actually take the overall plot (Han and Leia returning to Kashyyk with Chewie for an important day) it's not really so far out of the realm of possibility. Maybe we just saw the story as told by a retarded Wookieling.
I would consider YIJ as part of the "real" story. At least one episode is packaged with the movies (Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark). I don't think Harrison Ford was in the pilot, but he did show up in one of the episodes, retelling a childhood adventure to someone.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
You mention the Star Wars Christmas Special, but nobody's mentioned the EwokMovies !
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I've seen enough srange porn not to click that link, thanks.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I thought you liked things on a small scale Jason!?! Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
The Ewok movies weren't great, but I was always interested in the idea that there were other things going on on this moon that neither we nor the Emperor ever realized. I was never really very sure, though, when the Ewok movies took place in relation to the Holy Trilogy. Before, after, during?
Wasn't Lucas involved in those movies? I know he's said specifically that they're not canon... but they are movies. Right?
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
Sometimes I wonder if Lucas really knows what that word means. I mean, he says the Ewok movies aren't canon, yet HE made them... I think he's spent a little too much time cooped up at the Skywalker Ranch.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The has to...you know...THE GERMS! Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
"he Towani parents, Jeremitt and Catarine cannot locate their children, Mace and Cindel."
Looks like an instance of Lucas trying to work in one of the names from the working scripts of Star Wars, before the prequels were planned, of course.
I don't know why, but it kind of irritates when I read things like, he had just seen Heidi a week before, so he got a group together decided to make a movie that was like Heidi... but Star Wars. And she has to be an orphan now... so let's kill off the characters people liked in the first one. I mean... geez.
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
Wicket was in the ewok specials, and he was a canon character. Just in case anybody'd like to know.
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
Sorry for the double post. But i just found this. I'm sure most of you have seen the Star Wars Gansta Rap cartoon before, but check out this version.
Well, canon characters are in a good amount of the novels, too...
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
No to mention Holiday Special Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
...and M&M's commericals, and singing with Kermit the Frog.
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
Since we're mucking around in Star Wars canon. Is there an "accepted" origin for the jedi/sith in the books? I looked on line and found various write-ups that seemed to flow freely from the authors backsides. No offense.
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
I haven't read any books that goes into Jedi/Sith detail. But Play Knights of the Old Republic 1 and 2, that's the closest thing I found to an origin. According to the games, the Sith were originally a violent conquering race that had nothing to do with the Jedi at all. After they became extinct, some dark side Jedi took up thier name and philosophy and thats how we get the sith of today. I reccomend playing at least the first one. It's very well done, with alot of backstory and one hell of a plot twist near the end. The second one, Sith lords, just gave me a massive headache.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Concise and orderly, but thrown together from a hodgepodge of sources, such as "Knights of the Old Republic". And some article editors are very arbitrary and self-absorbed, even for Wiki-standards, in their deductions and explanations, such as the saber fighting styles and the "Who used what"-section, very self-contradictory at times.
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
Wow. Is there anything you can't find on Wiki?
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Stream-of-consciousness time again...
"Shadows" was a novel, PC game, console game, comic book series, set of action figures, set of model kits, pop-up book, soundtrack CD, and "making of..." book. Was there anything else?
The CG artists who worked on the Mos Eisley air traffic mentined that they specifically and intentionally put in the Outrider, and not some generic YT-2400.
Much as I like what Tim Zahn added to the SW universe, he got a lot of details wrong. In some cases, he was simply parroting what West End Games had (erroneously) established back c.1980-82 regarding Super Dtar Destroyers and lightsabers, but where he really screwed up was "Rogue Squadron". No such critter. When Red Leader died at the battle of Yavin, Red 2 (Wedge) moved up to command Red Squadron in his place. All Luke did was command the ground-effect airspeeder squadron Rogue Group in the defense of the Hoth base. Given his background on Tatooine, this was more his area of expertise.
I am so incredibly honked off by the new background for Boba Fett. I very, very, very much prefer the origin given in Marvel's Star Wars series way back when.
I know someone with an editing rig, and I'm splicing together my "definitive edition" Trilogy. ESB is pretty much cool as is with the new DVD. With Jedi, I'm taking all the DVD stuff (even that horrid "Jedi Rocks" number -- like the extra footage of Oola and the other dancers) and retaining the previous "special edition" ending, with Sebastian Shaw, and trying to trim out the intercutting with the celebrations on Tatooine, Coruscant, and Cloud City. Star Wars is hard. Most of it I'm cool with as far as the DVD goes, but I've restored the original version of Han shooting Greedo, and cut out the bad CG of Luke's initial entry into Mos Eisley (no Rontos or swoop). I wish I had the capacity to do new CG for Obi-Wan's death and Boba Fett's escape. Wish also I had access to the cut footage, like Luke and the vaporators, the reunion with Biggs, the sandstorm, etc.
See... What one watches in the cinema is one thing. When I'm home, I have ready access to food, drink, and potty, and would much rather see the whole story. Love the extended editions of the LotR DVDs.
We saw a couple YT-1600s in Ep II. Do you want to claim they're both the Millennium Falcon.
And the poster on the Tantive IV bridge was a Playboy pin-up.
Aban -- "Raiders of the Lost Ark" was the first movie, not a YIJ ep.
The Ewok movies took place before Jedi. The destruction of the Death Star II resulted in the complete ecological devastation of Endor. And incidentally, Cindel Towani showed up in the "Black Fleet Crisis" series.
--Jonah
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
Okay...
First of all, those are YT-1300s, and we've seen another one, specifically identified as Millennium Falcon, in ROTS.
Second of all... Destruction of the second Death Star didn't result in devastation of Endor. I know that dr Saxton says so, but he's wrong. (he got DS II size wrong, for starters).
First of all, those are YT-1300s, and we've seen another one, specifically identified as Millennium Falcon, in ROTS.
Whoops. Teach me to make a post with a stuffy head. And I knew about the Falcon in RotS -- I was making a point about the two we saw in that one shot of AotC (they obviously couldn't BOTH be the Falcon).
quote: Second of all... Destruction of the second Death Star didn't result in devastation of Endor. I know that dr Saxton says so, but he's wrong. (he got DS II size wrong, for starters).
Cite evidence. Saying it ain't so does not an argument make.
Well! I'll have to scour through this site at greater length. Thanks for pointing me to it.
--Jonah
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
It didn't, the large chunks either blew up individually or burned up in the atmosphere, because the alliance are the good guys. Since it's not debatable*, suspend disbelief, the same way everyone suspends disbelief at the uncanny speed at which the space worm snaps its head after the fleeing Falcon. A creature that big would move like a building, not a sock puppet, but we accept it and instead focus on the crazy-funny idea of a worm in an asteroid.
*Of course it is debatable for leisure purposes but it won't have any bearing on the canon.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I've got a giant worm. in my pants, baby!
quote:Much as I like what Tim Zahn added to the SW universe, he got a lot of details wrong. In some cases, he was simply parroting what West End Games had (erroneously) established back c.1980-82 regarding Super Dtar Destroyers and lightsabers, but where he really screwed up was "Rogue Squadron". No such critter. When Red Leader died at the battle of Yavin, Red 2 (Wedge) moved up to command Red Squadron in his place. All Luke did was command the ground-effect airspeeder squadron Rogue Group in the defense of the Hoth base. Given his background on Tatooine, this was more his area of expertise
Well, as Lucas himself actually read, made alterations and approved those first three books, I'd say it's as close to canon as possible.
Plus, theres about a million "Rogue Squadron" books, games and comic books at this point.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: Cite evidence. Saying it ain't so does not an argument make.
quote:I will show in this detailed rebuttal, his conclusions are not supported by the canonical evidence. The "Endor Holocaust" could not have happened.
Besides the whole "it's not a real planet and it's only a movie" thing?
Really, these guys are nuts- look at that website that rabidly goes on and on about how a Star destroyer blowing up an asteroid "proves" that the Emprie would easily defeat anything from Star Trek....because their LASERS can destroy planets.
Man, if Lucas could give a fuck, it's not worth devoting large amounts of time to. Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Plus, how can the Ewok movies come before Return of the Jedi? They can speak English in the former.
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
Ewok's speaking english? Hmm. Maybe because it was intended for kids they did that so they wouldn't be confused. And so thier parents didn't have to read them the sub-titles. I had the unfortunate pleasure of sitting behind one guy in theatres during EP2 who had to read the sub-titles cuz of his 6 year old kid couldn't read.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
I had the same problem when ep V was in theaters... Except that I was that 6 year old kid Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
What age do kids usually learn to read? I was reading fairly well at age 4, is that early for most people?
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
In my case the problem was while that I could read subtitles, I couldn't read them fast enough, so, halfway through the movie I gave up and asked my father to read them for me. Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Well, I remember I was reading the Hobbit in first grade (five years old), and doing so fairly briskly. I remember because I got in trouble for doing so instead of doing the "reading readiness" worksheet that had been handed out. Whatever.
My problem was when I saw the Star Wars Special Edition when it came out in '97, the twit in front of me HAD to read the opening crawl in a nice clear voice. Fortunately, I was there with about a half-dozen friends and we politely asked him to shut the hell up loudly and in unison.
It was ironic. All the major characters got applause and cheers at their first appearance, even the Falcon. But the reaction Wedge got left 'em all in the dust. The Cult of Wedge seems to be going strong...
--Jonah
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
I bet the Boba Fett Fans had a field day when he showed up in the Falcon/Jabba scene!
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Yeah -- and you should have heard the boos in Jedi SE when he went into the Sarlacc...
--Jonah
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
I wish they hadn't added the pig-squeal sounds and the beak to the sarlacc. Mandibles would've worked, tentacles is ok, but don't take its balls away by adding an organic ED-209 head, like the time it panicked after falling down the stairs.
I also think the Watcher in the Water of FOTR would've been more menacing without the elephant moans and bearded-old-man countenance, just the tentacles and some hisses.
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