Topic: If Government is to keep its nose out of Private Business.....
Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33
posted
.... why does the Government have to do the dirty work of what Private Business wants?
My friend is a little slow when it comes to bills. Usually he tries to pay them on time. However, one bill that has snuck under his nose is for toll charges on Highway 407.
Highway 407 is a electronic toll road that runs north of Toronto. Instead of stopping to pick up a ticket when you get on, and stopping to pay when you get off, this system does that by way of electronic transponder. You hear a little "beep" when you get on and when you get off. Those without transponders have their license plate taken and looked up in a database where a bill is sent to the corresponding address with a "special surcharge".
Due to the great conservative minds in the Provincial Government, the highway was sold off to a private company who has the power to increase fares to their liking. Fares have since increased by 1000% (that's right, ten times the original).
Well, anyways, this friend drives on the 407 once because he was running late for an interview. He gets a bill, and, well, being the absent-minded fellow he is, leaves it for, oh say 4 months. Then he gets a letter in the mail from the Ministry of Transportation. The Ministry is threatening to suspend his Driver's licence as well as fine him if he doesn't pay up. Well, he did.
While I can understand the company's right to hike rates and to demand payment when payment is due, what I can't understand is why the Ministry of Transportation has to get involved. This is a matter strictly between a business and a customer. Business bills Customer. Customer does not pay. Most businesses go to Collection Agency. Since when did the Government act as enforcer to do the dirty work of Business? Does the company have the right to revoke a state-issued document certifying the privelege to drive? In any case, this sets a dangerous precedent in which any company can have the government threaten you for any business that has not been officially settled on their terms. Did I forget to mention that this is the same conservative government that is threatening my friend with legal action?
One person I talked to about this compared this to petty theft from a store. I then countered with the fact that should I go to jail if I don't have my electric bill paid on time?
Comments?
-------------------- "And slowly, you come to realize, it's all as it should be, you can only do so much. If you're game enough, you could place your trust in me. For the love of life, there's a tradeoff, we could lose it all but we'll go down fighting...." - David Sylvian FreeSpace 2, the greatest space sim of all time, now remastered!
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Well, you could make the argument that by driving on the toll road belonging to the company you're agreeing to a contract under which you're required to pay the bill. But that might be pushing things.
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Registered: Mar 1999
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Da_bang80
A few sectors short of an Empire
Member # 528
posted
That's bs, and you all know it. 1000%? what did it cost before the hike?
I wonder if duct taping your liscence plates before you get on or off the highway would work, assuming you didn't get pulled by some cop who just happened to be in the area when you do something wrong... lol
And what about out of country drivers? That could get messy if they didn't pay up. If they even had to that is.
-------------------- Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. The courage to change the things I cannot accept. And the wisdom to hide the bodies of all the people I had to kill today because they pissed me off.
posted
I am familiar with this highway. Out-of-country drivers do not get charged for using it. However, the increase of the rates is the Company's perogative, so there's nothing to argue there.
As for the Ministry of Transportation getting involved, it could possibly be part of the purchasing deal that said company had with the government. "We purchase toll road for a certain amount, you beat up drivers who fail to pay the toll."
posted
I suppose it could be considered privatization. Rather than the government working as collectors for the company, the company would be managing the road for the government.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
It is privatization. But it's supposed to be regulated by the government, being a public service and all. For example, putting price caps on tolls, which they seem to have forgotten.
What is the price/km ratio (toll price over total kilometres of route)? I'd like to know.
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
We too have one near Los Angeles, a short stretch of private toll road built so for people extended communities. Rather I should say for those who have to disposable cash to bypass the masses.
I have often wondered a few things about such roads myself.
If public funding went into the road why profits from the tolls go to a private company.
If toll money goes to a private company, that makes it a private road. Are speed limits enforced by California Highway Partol units, and if so why? Why would there be speed limits at all really, it is a private road.
Is there public money going into the maintenance and upkeep of the road? If so, why?
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Registered: Mar 1999
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Da_bang80
A few sectors short of an Empire
Member # 528
posted
quote:Originally posted by Jeff Raven: I am familiar with this highway. Out-of-country drivers do not get charged for using it.
Well, in that case, the next time i need to go to Ontario, I'll swing by Montana and swipe someones plates...
If it's a privately owned road, does the government still police it? or does the company have thier own police force? I assume that the RCMP still polices the highway, but i'm just lookin for clarification.
-------------------- Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. The courage to change the things I cannot accept. And the wisdom to hide the bodies of all the people I had to kill today because they pissed me off.
When the highway first opened, tolls for cars were 2.6 cents per kilometre during peak hours, and 1.3 cents at all other times. Just look at the tolls in the second link. So maybe I went a little overboard on the 1000%, but that's what I read about in the Star. The original tolls I obtained from someone I know who constantly takes the toll highway to get to work. He did mention that higher tolls were put into place in order to deter some drivers and to ensure traffic runs smoothly, even with the high tolls, there are quite alot of cars on this road.
The Cameras will pick up a car that tapes up its rear licence plate to avoid detection. The ETR Company has a contract with the Ontario Provincial Police for road safety reasons as well as cracking down on fraudsters (I use fraud, because taping up the licence plate to avoid paying is indeed deliberately trying to rip off a company). I know that the Police also pull over out-of-countryers, don't know what happens with them. I have no problems with the police patrolling this highway, they also have special transponders so that the police are not billed. There are special vehicles that assist commuters like a sort of CAA or AAA service.
"If toll money goes to a private company, that makes it a private road. Are speed limits enforced by California Highway Partol units, and if so why? Why would there be speed limits at all really, it is a private road."
There are some laws regulating what business can and cannot do. I don't think there is anything wrong with having the company post speed limits.
As for a possible deal between the company and government in regards to unpaid tolls, there is nothing to it, from what I heard. The Government does not have any say on highway operations, except for the purpose of environmental assessments and permits (a typical government control). Which makes the Government threatening to suspend driver's licences more outrageous. From what I hear, the ETR company complained to the Government over unpaid tolls, and the Conservative Government, always a friend of the business, decided to act as a favour for its corporate supporter.
The terms of the sale also never took into consideration the aspect of toll hikes. So the company legally has the right to hike rates to no limit. The government maintains that it does not spend one tax penny on the highway for maintenance (the company pays for its own maintenance through these tolls), and the auditor's documents prove that. The auditor also maintained that the government got the short end of the deal as the company has since reaped substantial profits and will be able to break even on the highway in a short amount of time (the highway was sold for $10 billion).
So I guess privatization is good then, right? The funny thing is that the funds that could have come from this could have paid for road maintenance in Toronto itself. Unfortunately, that is not the case, and many roads in Toronto are in decrepit condition. Two-tiered highway system, I'd hate to see this happen in our healthcare system.
-------------------- "And slowly, you come to realize, it's all as it should be, you can only do so much. If you're game enough, you could place your trust in me. For the love of life, there's a tradeoff, we could lose it all but we'll go down fighting...." - David Sylvian FreeSpace 2, the greatest space sim of all time, now remastered!
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I'm sure that the camera that takes the picture of your license plate, will also note the time and date of your passing through.
If it takes a picture of both when you get on and when you get off, they can take the time differences, and have it divided by the distance you traveled, thus getting your average speed. Theoretically they can find out if you were speeding our not
However, there was this exact issue with NYS's EZPass, but apparently the police never bothered to use such a method to find out if people were speeding. Guess they were busy enough catching them speeding anyways.
posted
Hairspray + license plate = unreadable to camera.
Or so I've heard.
-------------------- "I was surprised by the matter-of-factness of Kafka's narration, and the subtle humor present as a result." (Sizer 2005)
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Me too. I suspect it's one of those urban myths, but I can't be bothered to find out.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
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Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33
posted
quote:Originally posted by Omega: Well, you could make the argument that by driving on the toll road belonging to the company you're agreeing to a contract under which you're required to pay the bill. But that might be pushing things.
In which I'd counter by mentioning the use of a Collection Agency. I know they can be nasty sometimes.
-------------------- "And slowly, you come to realize, it's all as it should be, you can only do so much. If you're game enough, you could place your trust in me. For the love of life, there's a tradeoff, we could lose it all but we'll go down fighting...." - David Sylvian FreeSpace 2, the greatest space sim of all time, now remastered!
Registered: Mar 1999
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