posted
He did use the problems of his contemporary world as well as those legend to craft his tale. Anyone well versed in european history can find many aspects of his work that reflect the racism and intolerance that repeat themselves from the crusades on though WWII and beyond. The Rings story has many layers, its easy to pick out certain elements or character traits from a fictional work and apply a label to the author based on them.
A good example of this is how Robert Heinlein, one of my favourite authors, is often labeled a militaristic fasist or humanist liberal, depending on who you ask.
Here's a pretty good tread I pulled off another forum; Tolkien’s Jews
It’s dangerous to read The Lord of the Rings as allegory, because Tolkien layers on multiple meanings. But last night I picked up The Silmarillion for the first time in maybe twenty years and found more evidence for one of my pet theories: the Dwarves are the Jews of Middle Earth.
This is not a political analysis. It has nothing to do with the current events in the Middle East. But from Tolkien’s point of view, many of the attributes he gave his Dwarves--physical, cultural, historical, and linguistic--would have been applicable to the Jews.
The Dwarves of Middle Earth are bearded exiles from a beloved homeland to which they desperately wish to return. That alone makes them passable analogs for the Jews of pre-1948 European imagination, but it is just the start. The name of their lost homeland is Moria. Moriah is a hill in Jerusalem that would almost certainly have been known to a scholar of Tolkien’s stature.
The Dwarves, said to be overfond of gold (in keeping with the European stereotype of Jews), mingle with the other free peoples but are always outsiders among them. They maintain their own ancient religion and their own language, which Tolkien the philologist has filled with a “kh” sound that is found also in Hebrew; I could swear I heard the Dwarvish war cry, “Baruk Khazad-dum, Khazad ai-menu” at Seder last year.
What I found last night is some scriptural evidence. The Silmarillion has the “God” of Tolkien’s universe telling the “father” of the Dwarves that he must kill his offspring. It is a scene very much like the one in Genesis where God tells Abraham that he must kill his son, Isaac. In both cases, the child is permitted to live and thus become the patriarch of a race.
Of course there is more to the Dwarves than their Jewishness. Their morphology and much of their culture, not to mention many of their names, come directly from Norse and northern European mythology. But that’s part of Tolkien’s genius. It’s not wrong to read LOTR as an allegory for World War II, or the Crusades, and in places it’s hard not to, but if that’s the only way you take it you will miss other layers of meaning. Same with the Dwarves, who can be understood accurately but not exclusively as Middle Earth’s Jews
Sorry if this re-opens a can of worms, but I thought it is a interesting topic.
-------------------- Underground Dweller: "Everything you flush ends up here," "This is our library" Fry: "It's nothing but crumpled porn and Ayn Rand"
Registered: Jun 2003
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Mountain Man
Ex-Member
posted
I'm glad you reopened this since I Had wanted to point out how one radio interview where he actualy compared the Dwarves and the Jews Made some stupid people call him a racist. I have a link some where to a real player download and transcript of that Interview. If you haven't heard it. I'll try to find it for you. Don't worry about it being the real it is. P.S. ther are also recordings of him reading some of his work. Probably most Tolkien fans have found them already but if not I'm sure you will enjoy them
[ September 08, 2003, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: Mountain Man ]
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posted
Look, Mountain Man, if you had just started your previous thread with at least some of this background, perhaps it might have been food for discussion. But just generally asking a question hardly anyone understands doesn't really cut it.
And now about this whole Tolkien business. The Dwarves could have been partly based on Jews. But everything in Tolkien's books is based on other mythologies, peoples and languages. And there is absolutely no reason to call that anti-anything.
posted
Hey now I'm not looking to ruffle any feathers here.This was a serious question at one time. The fact that anyone ever thought he was shows something about human nature. I've run into the same thing myself. Like the use of the word Jew. Tolkien thought nothing about it in that interview. He was a gentleman. So whats the big deal. The Jews are not a race they are a religion at least thats what I've always heard. Anyone can become a Jew if they convert to Judaism. Well I hope all thats spelled right. This topic could get out of hand so maybe it is to hot for this forum. Don't bother to reply to my post. Anyone who wants to disscuss the subject of the thread can do so better by ignoring any mention of me in relation to the subject. Talk among yourselves.
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posted
http://www.sacred-texts.com/ring/index.htm Heres a place with links to the ancient legends Tolkien incorporated into his work. His never actualy lifted anyone elses ideas like somepeople think.This sort of stuff just all comes together in an authors imagination and ends up on the pages. I'll look around some more and find those downloads. They link to the page somehow so I'll find them and post them in here later.
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Mountain Man
Ex-Member
posted
http://www.jrrtolkien.org.uk/homepage.htm this link leads to the voice recordings of Tolkien. The interview here is his last on radio. The download is marked JAN.1971 The questions raised were long before that. I believe the fact that his voice showed that the whole thing was sort of silly had some over sensitive people thinking he was making light of the jewish peoples culture. It was simply a matter of generation gap. The other downloads and transcripts are something everyone interested in Tolkien will enjoy. The refference to the Jews is about six and a half minutes into the interview.
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posted
Ok, but I seriously doubt that anyone here thought he was racist.
Thus the entire point of proving something we (the collective forum members) already thought eludes me completely.
Registered: Mar 1999
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Mountain Man
Ex-Member
posted
The question was not directed to any sort of collective mindset. As the other replies show not everyone thought the question entirly unworthy of investigation. Even Harry saw the point. The wording of my original question was what aroused mixed feeling as to its intention. Hot topics are like that. I was pleased to see that some took the trouble to investigate and look at the question as I had intended it to be looked at. Your interest is in why it was ever asked. My interest was the same.
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posted
Have you ever heard the saying "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"? Sigmund Freud, bright fellow.
The fact that anyone ever thought Tolkien was anti-semitic doesn't show something about human nature. It shows the age-old fact that when one makes a monumental contribution to literature, it gets scrutinized.
There have been hundreds of philosophical and anthropological discussions over Tolkien's work over the years. This particular one was put to rest in its infancy. I've never heard it before and I doubt I will again. To me it is in the same league as "Avoid the movie Meet Joe Black, it's about Brad Pitt becoming Satan!!!"
I actually heard that. Then I smothered the speaker in a pair of diapers, to celebrate irony.
Registered: Aug 1999
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