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Author Topic: From the Department of Well, Duh
Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

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quote:
Analysis: Bush keeps revising war justification

President Bush keeps revising his explanation for why the U.S. is in Iraq, moving from narrow military objectives at first to history-of-civilization stakes now.

Initially, the rationale was specific: to stop Saddam Hussein from using what Bush claimed were the Iraqi leader's weapons of mass destruction or from selling them to al-Qaida or other terrorist groups.

But 3 1/2 years later, with no weapons found, still no end in sight and the war a liability for nearly all Republicans on the ballot Nov. 7, the justification has become far broader and now includes the expansive "struggle between good and evil."

Republicans seized on North Korea's reported nuclear test last week as further evidence that the need for strong U.S. leadership extends beyond Iraq.

Bush's changing rhetoric reflects increasing administration efforts to tie the war, increasingly unpopular at home, with the global fight against terrorism, still the president's strongest suit politically.

"We can't tolerate a new terrorist state in the heart of the Middle East, with large oil reserves that could be used to fund its radical ambitions, or used to inflict economic damage on the West," Bush said in a news conference last week in the Rose Garden.

When no weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq, Bush shifted his war justification to one of liberating Iraqis from a brutal ruler.

After Saddam's capture in December 2003, the rationale became helping to spread democracy through the Middle East. Then it was confronting terrorists in Iraq "so we do not have to face them here at home," and "making America safer," themes Bush pounds today.

"We're in the ideological struggle of the 21st century," he told a California audience this month. "It's a struggle between good and evil."

Vice President Dick Cheney takes it even further: "The hopes of the civilized world ride with us," Cheney tells audiences.

Except for the weapons of mass destruction argument, there is some validity in each of Bush's shifting rationales, said Michael O'Hanlon, a foreign policy scholar at the Brookings Institution who initially supported the war effort.

"And I don't have any big problems with any of them, analytically. The problem is they can't change the realities on the ground in Iraq, which is that we're in the process of beginning to lose," O'Hanlon said. "It is taking us a long time to realize that, but the war is not headed the way it should be."

Andrew Card, Bush's first chief of staff, said Bush's evolving rhetoric, including his insistence that Iraq is a crucial part of the fight against terrorism, is part of an attempt to put the war in better perspective for Americans.

The administration recently has been "doing a much better job" in explaining the stakes, Card said in an interview. "We never said it was going to be easy. The president always told us it would be long and tough."

"I'm trying to do everything I can to remind people that the war on terror has the war in Iraq as a subset. It's critical we succeed in Iraq as part of the war on terror," said Card, who left the White House in March.

Bush at first sought to explain increasing insurgent and sectarian violence as a lead-up to Iraqi elections. But elections came and went, and a democratically elected government took over, and the sectarian violence increased.

Bush has insisted U.S. soldiers will stand down as Iraqis stand up. He has likened the war to the 20th century struggles against fascism, Nazism and communism. He has called Iraq the "central front" in a global fight against radical jihadists.

Having jettisoned most of the earlier, upbeat claims of progress, Bush these days emphasizes consequences of setting even a limited withdrawal timetable: abandonment of the Iraqi people, destabilizing the Middle East and emboldening terrorists around the world.

The more ominous and determined his words, the more skeptical the American public appears, polls show, both on the war itself and over whether it is part of the larger fight against terrorism, as the administration insists.

Bush's approval rating, reflected by AP-Ipsos polls, has slid from the mid 60s at the outset of the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003 to the high 30s now. There were light jumps upward after the December 2003 capture of Saddam, Bush's re-election in November 2004 and each of three series of aggressive speeches over the past year. Those gains tended to vanish quickly.

With the war intruding on the fall elections, both parties have stepped up their rhetoric.

Republicans, who are also reeling from the congressional page scandal, are casting Democrats as seeking to "cut and run" and appease terrorists.

Democrats accuse Bush of failed leadership with his "stay the course" strategy. They cite a government intelligence assessment suggesting the Iraq war has helped recruit more terrorists, and a book by journalist Bob Woodward that portrays Bush as intransigent in his defense of the Iraq war and his advisers as bitterly divided.

Democrats say Iraq has become a distraction from the war against terrorism � not a central front. But they are divided among themselves on what strategy to pursue.

Republicans, too, increasingly are growing divided as U.S. casualties rise.

"I struggle with the fact that President Bush said, `As the Iraqis stand up, we will stand down.' But the fact is, this has not happened," said Rep. Christopher Shays (news, bio, voting record), R-Conn., a war supporter turned war skeptic.

The Republican chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Sen. John Warner (news, bio, voting record) of Virginia, said after a recent visit to Iraq that Iraq was "drifting sideways." He urged consideration of a "change of course" if the Iraq government fails to restore order over the next two or three months.

More than 2,750 members of the U.S. military have died since the beginning of the war, most of them since Bush's May 2003 "mission accomplished" aircraft carrier speech. Tens of thousands of Iraqis have died.

Recent events have been dispiriting.

The United States now has about 141,000 troops in Iraq, up from about 127,000 in July. Some military experts have suggested at least one additional U.S. division, or around 20,000 troops, is needed in western Iraq alone.

Dan Benjamin, a former Middle East specialist with the National Security Council in the Clinton administration, said the administration is overemphasizing the nature of the threat in an effort to bolster support.

"I think the administration has oversold the case that Iraq could become a jihadist state," said Benjamin, now with the Center for Strategic and International Studies. "If the U.S. were to leave Iraq tomorrow, the result would be a bloodbath in which Sunnis and Shiites fight it out. But the jihadists would not be able to seek power."

Not all of Bush's rhetorical flourishes have had the intended consequences.

When the history of Iraq is finally written, the recent surge in sectarian violence is "going to be a comma," Bush said in several recent appearances.

Critics immediately complained that the remark appeared unsympathetic and dismissive of U.S. and Iraqi casualties, an assertion the White House disputed.

For a while last summer, Bush depicted the war as one against "Islamic fascism," borrowing a phrase from conservative commentators. The strategy backfired, further fanning anti-American sentiment across the Muslim world.

The "fascism" phrase abruptly disappeared from Bush's speeches, reportedly after he was talked out of it by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Karen Hughes, a longtime Bush confidant now with the State Department.

Hughes said she would not disclose private conversations with the president. But, she told the AP, she did not use the "fascism" phrase herself. "I use `violent extremist,'" she said.



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Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

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Da_bang80
A few sectors short of an Empire
Member # 528

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Someone really needs to put a sock in his pie whole and give him an atomic wedgie, THEN leave him hanging off the radar mast of his dads aircraft carrier...

That'll learn em.

--------------------
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.
The courage to change the things I cannot accept.
And the wisdom to hide the bodies of all the people I had to kill today because they pissed me off.

Remember when your parents told you it's dangerous to play in traffic?

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Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
Member # 882

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quote:
Bush has insisted U.S. soldiers will stand down as Iraqis stand up. He has likened the war to the 20th century struggles against fascism, Nazism and communism.
When he adds "Japanese Imperialism" to the batch, we'll know he's going to nuke Iraq and be done with it. [Wink]

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Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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Peregrinus
Curmudgeon-at-Large
Member # 504

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Twice.

--Jonah

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"That's what I like about these high school girls, I keep getting older, they stay the same age."

--David "Woody" Wooderson, Dazed and Confused

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Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33

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I think it's safe to say that George W Bush is truly responsible for the sorry state of world affairs. I'm very close to wondering if 9/11 would have happened with Al Gore as President, I'm not saying that anyone could have stopped it, but would al Qaeda truly attempt 9/11 with a much more rational president then Bush? With what's going on right now, it is Al Qaeda's dream, to turn the war against terrorism into Muslims vs everyone else....

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"And slowly, you come to realize, it's all as it should be, you can only do so much. If you're game enough, you could place your trust in me. For the love of life, there's a tradeoff, we could lose it all but we'll go down fighting...." - David Sylvian
FreeSpace 2, the greatest space sim of all time, now remastered!

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TSN
I'm... from Earth.
Member # 31

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I'm sure the WTC/Pentagon attacks would still have been at least attempted. Quite possibly even carried out. But the aftermath would have consisted of going into Afghanistan, overthrowing the Taliban, capturing bin Laden at Tora Bora, and leaving Iraq the fuck alone.
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Da_bang80
A few sectors short of an Empire
Member # 528

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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
quote:
Bush has insisted U.S. soldiers will stand down as Iraqis stand up. He has likened the war to the 20th century struggles against fascism, Nazism and communism.
When he adds "Japanese Imperialism" to the batch, we'll know he's going to nuke Iraq and be done with it. [Wink]
Problem is: I'm not so sure who the fascist is in this case.

--------------------
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.
The courage to change the things I cannot accept.
And the wisdom to hide the bodies of all the people I had to kill today because they pissed me off.

Remember when your parents told you it's dangerous to play in traffic?

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Neutrino 123
Member
Member # 1327

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Well, Japan was sort of fascist, but the statement probably refers to Italy. They were a pretty big axis power, but they fought so poorly and surrendered so readily, so most people don't hear about them much...

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Neutrino 123 (pronounced Neutrino One-Two-Three)

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Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
Member # 882

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quote:
Originally posted by Da_bang80:
quote:
Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
quote:
Bush has insisted U.S. soldiers will stand down as Iraqis stand up. He has likened the war to the 20th century struggles against fascism, Nazism and communism.
When he adds "Japanese Imperialism" to the batch, we'll know he's going to nuke Iraq and be done with it. [Wink]
Problem is: I'm not so sure who the fascist is in this case.
Bush himself at this rate- he's just killed habeas corpus- now, literally anyone deemed by Bush or his asministration to be an "enemy combatant" or "providing material or logistical support" can be inprisoned...excuse me, their term is detained indefinitely with no trail, right to face their accusers or evidence.
Zero definition or oversight for who they accuse, nor ant provision for the public to ever learn who has been so accused.

quote:
"It allows the government to seize individuals on American soil and detain them indefinitely with no opportunity to challenge their detention in court," Feingold said. "And the new law would permit an individual to be convicted on the basis of coerced testimony and even allow someone convicted under these rules to be put to death."


So- they can seize you, torture you into saying whatever they want and execute you with no trial...or trail for pesky human rights tribunals.

Why do I forsee Bush declaring that he must remain in power indefinitely untill this crisis/war/whatever is over.

Seriously, this sets up a potential dictatorship here in the United States.
Holy fuck- this is waaay beyond the worst thing I thought the nation would allow him to get away with- and almost no Democrats railed against it [i]either[/]- certainly not that dickless wonder Leiberman or Hillary Clinton for that matter.

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Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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Da_bang80
A few sectors short of an Empire
Member # 528

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The words Police State spring to mind all of a sudden. How much longer does the world have to put up with Bush? Will his replacement be any better? And will these recent changes in the country be set right again or will things continue to snowball?

On an unrelated note: Who here is as happy as I am for the recent decline in gas prices? 82.9 Cents per Litre WOOhoo!! Hasn't been that cheap in years! It finally takes less than $10 to fill up my tank!

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Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.
The courage to change the things I cannot accept.
And the wisdom to hide the bodies of all the people I had to kill today because they pissed me off.

Remember when your parents told you it's dangerous to play in traffic?

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WizArtist II
"How can you have a yellow alert in Spacedock? "
Member # 1425

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Welcome to "Jericho"....only a matter of time.

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There are 10 types of people in the world...those that understand Binary and those that don't.

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Da_bang80
A few sectors short of an Empire
Member # 528

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quote:
"It allows the government to seize individuals on American soil and detain them indefinitely with no opportunity to challenge their detention in court," Feingold said. "And the new law would permit an individual to be convicted on the basis of coerced testimony and even allow someone convicted under these rules to be put to death."
And THIS is what people call Civilization?

--------------------
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.
The courage to change the things I cannot accept.
And the wisdom to hide the bodies of all the people I had to kill today because they pissed me off.

Remember when your parents told you it's dangerous to play in traffic?

Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
TSN
I'm... from Earth.
Member # 31

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"How much longer does the world have to put up with Bush?"

Until January 20th, 2009, most likely.

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Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
Member # 343

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So when does Europe launch its liberation force for America?

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"The French have a saying: 'mise en place'—keep everything in its fucking place!"

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Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
Member # 882

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Bad as it is here, the world is turning ablind eye to Russia's "KGB State", and the complete loss of civil liberties there.
Putin's setting himself up to be the next Stalin and he gets ovations from the U.N. when he speaks.

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Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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