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» Flare Sci-Fi Forums » Community » The Flameboard » What a lame flameboard.... (Page 2)

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Author Topic: What a lame flameboard....
Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33

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The Serbians say that the KLA are the offenders and that the Albanians should be punished for supporting what they call "terrorists with no respect for human life". At one point, I heard that the Serbians said that if anyone should be bombed, it should be the KLA.

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I can resist anything.......
Except Temptation


Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Chimaera
Ex-Member


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There is a large number of ethnic groups currently fighting for their own independent state. The Chechens in Russia, the Kurds in Turkey and so on, and of course there's the IRA. The real issue is often the treatment of the ethnic group, the actions of said ethnic group, and the strategic importance of the country the group is trying to seperate from. For example, the west gets involved in Kosovo after the Serbs start ethnic clensing, but shrug off heavy bombardment of the Chechens because they don't want a confrontation with Russia, even though technically both situations are internal affairs of a particular country. Similarly, Turkey is a strategically important ally for the US, and has not, to my knowledge, conducted any sort of barbarities against the Kurds, so they are again shrugged off by the US (and other western nations as well).

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"Sometimes you get the bear, and sometimes the bear gets you."
-Commander Riker, USS Enterprise


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Curry Monster
Somewhere in Australia
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Bryce - that's a convenient mistruth. The war started there in a sense - an Austrian Duke was murdered, they declared war on the slavs, Russia stepped in. Now the reason it became a Full European war was due to alliances. Half truths such as the WWIII myth a convenient!


Now tell me again, why is the USA involved?


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I drink therefore I am.

-Descartes


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Montgomery
Reigning Supreme
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Because for once the moral thing to do coincides with the stretegically prudent thing to do.

The whole Balkan area is a patchwork of cultures, and if the Serb offensives were to continue, refugees would spill into and destablise nearby countries such as Albania. A really nasty little war could flare up and threaten the whole region, possibly pulling in Turkey. Certainly the refugee crisis could swamp Central europe.

A friend of mine once speculated that it was all to do with the oil deposits under the caspian Sea. He said the best way to exploit the oil was via a pipeline west, to the mediterranean where you could put it on tankers. Of course, this pipe would need to pass through, you've guessed it, the Southern Balkans. And if that whole area is ablaze...
Well, that was his theory. Just an interesting aside.


BTW, aren't you Americans a little patronised at your President saying "Go find it on the atlas and look at it"? Or are the American public really that introverted?

------------------
"To appear in an Ernie Wise play...is the final accolade"
"Look at me and say that"
"Accolade."
"AH-hahaha!"


Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
First of Two
Better than you
Member # 16

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Introverted? "That word, I don' think it means what you think it means." -- Inigo Montoya

Introverted we are not. STUPID, many of us are, unfortunately. I blame this on the people who are so damned all-fired-up about teaching "self-esteem" in our schools (while the "real" world doesn't give a damn about it, as we all know), or whether we should teach "creation science" along with real science, that they forget to teach simple things like "Geography."

I heard more accurate map information sung by Wakko on "Animaniacs" than I did in all of high school. Fortunately, I'm a map nut, so not only could I point out Kosovo to people, but I can tell them where Tannu Tuva was, as well.

That said.. Serbia still sux.

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*I only SEEM Normal*

[This message was edited by First of Two on March 25, 1999.]


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RW
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Hm, a Dutch guy shot down a MiG-29. I am honestly surprised our pilots know where the firing button is.

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
DT
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Monty, this is gonna get real flammable. There may not be any Serb apologists here, but as long as me and Daryus have breath in us, there will be apologists here for INTERNATIONAL LAW.

A- World War I was not started by Serbia, but in Serbia. World War I was started when an expansionist power, Austria-Hungary, attacked Serbia, thereby provoking a Russian response(odd, normally the Russian treatment of other Slavs is to murder them...) which led to the Germans(remember, Austrians are ethnically German) going to war with the Russians, who were allied with France. The UK, in their standard policy of protecting the mouth of the Rhine and attempting to prevent anyone from getting continental hegemony, went to war with the Germans.

B- Clinton is misusing this as a didactic. An expansionist power(much like NATO) who was threatening Russia attacked the Serbs. Russia stuck up for their 'Slavic brothers' and mobilized. There is absolutely no chance that Slobo will be the next Hitler. Why? He has no Wermacht! Even with the Waffen SS, even those cheese-eating surrender monkeys known as the French could've beat him back. I'd wager that Poland could repel a Serbian attack right now. Even if Ho Chi Milosevich obliterates Kosovo, there is little chance of a World War III. What is more likely is a repeat of World War I, ie, pissing off Russia.

C- What legal right does NATO have here? They are committing an act of war without any attack on NATO! If Slobo had been exterminating Turks... yeah, I can see that. But Kosovars? Nyet, they're not in NATO.

D- Why is the US there? Let's say that this is needed for Europe, and that NATO has a right there. Why is the US there? Now, aside from the arguement that NATO is useless to America now, let's tackle the issue that in an attack on a non-member country, the US has no obligation to go. Actually, I believe this is the perfect opportunity to let Germany go at it. We've been holding back the best soldiers known to man for over 50 years. I say we wind up the Germans, point them towards the Balkans, and let them go Heydrich on Serbia's ass.

E- What strategic purpose is the US accomplishing? Now that you've got your morality arguements out on point D, gimme strategy here! This is really a rehash of points A and B in part, but still....

F- What is the strategic plan? I think we're all a little hungover from the Iraqis. This is not Achmed and his mule drawn tank. These are European soldiers(who 50 years ago gave the Nazis a bloody nose) with Soviet technology. So, fighting in the Balkans(tough terrain), you expect to defeat the resilient Serb army without heavy casualties? And once the air strikes fail, do you go in on the ground or do you let Slobo do what he wishes?

G- Why can't I get some good local marmalade?

H- With the money we spend trying to stop Ho Chi Milosevich, we could send how many kids to college? Maybe that is why the US has troops over there. The European countries realize that good educational systems are important, so they are providing for their next generations. Let the capitalists from the US do it, they're too stupid to figure out the importance of education over pointless wars.

I- Why on Earth would Ed Wade and Terry Francona even be considering keeping Torrey Lovullo over David Miller? Miller goes to Cleveland if we don't keep him, Luvullo goes to a Beer League if we don't keep him.

J- Can we avoid a US Sucks/US Rules type debate? I freely acknowledge that the US has the best military and economy. Pleaee move beyond that.

K- Why on Earth are the Oscars so long?

L- Did I ask too many questions?

M- I agree with RW on this one, but I think I can answer it better. The pilot was not Dutch, he was Deutsch, they just spelled it wrong :-)

N- Who here is ready to get blown up? Don't take my word for it, take the Department of Defense's. You can bet your ass this raises the likelyhood of terrorist action.

O- As for the cultural patchwork in the Balkans, I think we should first look at the rafter in your eye instead of the straw in Slobo's. Get Westdorp out of there, that'll help things.

P- Bill Clinton as Adolf Hitler. What do I mean? Well, they're both agressors. They've both taken action against a non-agressor nation(and as much as you may dislike Serbia, Kosovo is their's, per the Dayton Accords, and they may do with it what they like under international law).

Q- Oil in the Capsian may have been a viable option 30 years ago, it's not now. Oil is as plentiful as corn. If anyone was stupid enough to go to war over it, they should be shot by a firing squad of Neville Chamberlain, Harry Truman, Woodrow Wilson, and Lloyd George.

R- What do you intend to do with Albania? Read the NATO Charter. In it, there is a clause which states that an attack on any member nation demands an attack by the other members against the agressor(to simplify). Greece _IS_ a NATO member. Albania has made public their intentions against Greece. So ya help them now and then bomb their ass in three years? Good idea.

S- Hey, look, it's future President George H.W. Bush Jr! Shall we begin calling him Ike now? (think about the possible parallels if the war in Serbia escalates....)

T- Why are we picking on Serbia? Why not Russia? I care a lot more about the Chechens then I do the Albanians. According to Bill Clinton, it is the US' duty to handle such matters. Well, Russia did the EXACT same thing the Serbs are doing. So, once we're done beating up the little Serbs, are we going to go and kick their big brother? Or, can you say hypocrite, Mr Clinton?

U- Who wants to kill some Virginians and then some Filipinos? (think about it before you respond to this one folks)

V- Hitting Saddam really worked, eh? Not a good example to give. And if I may AGAIN hit that moronic Hitler comparison, when Slobo invades two sovereign nations(and conquers them) give me a call. Of course, I don't think most people understand that Kosovo is NOT a state! It is the PROPERTY of Serbia.

W- Why do I feel I need to talk for so long?

X- The X factor will definitely be Russia. If Russia starts fighting with the Serbs, I'm behind Clinton on this one! Screw the US Armed Forces, I'd gladly liquidate NATO just to see Russian soldiers lying dead.

Y- Why? Because we like international law!

Z- If anyone can actually respond to all of these, I will send them... well, something.

------------------
Day, after day
I get angry and I will say
That the day, is in my sight
When I will bow, and say good night
-------
Violent Femmes


Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Sol System
two dollar pistol
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Z: I want a lolly.

Y: You gladly toss international law aside when it serves your purposes. Besides, no true believer in realpolitik cares much for the concept.

X: Yum, racism. That's sort of the problem here, don't you think?

W: Well, it's more typing then talking...

V: Land can be owned. People can not. Does genocide justify action? Yes. So where is the international community in Africa? Damned good question.

U: I'm sure there are some folks up for it. We usually keep such people confined to mental institutions or Idaho.

T: Comparing Chechnya to Kosovo is nonsensical. If this were merely a civil war, I would agree with you. However, this is a war that is killing huge numbers of civilians simply because they refer to their god by a different name. Let's take your international law, which you claim to swear by. Targeting civilians is illegal. But that's exactly what's going on here. (You could also argue that Chechnya did a fair job of holding off Russian on its own.)

S: Oh boy, continuing the Bush legacy. (Actually, I rather like some of what I've heard about his work in Texas, but who knows how much of that you can believe.)

R: The idea is to keep fighting OUT of Albania, thereby short circuiting a war.

Q: Within 50 years or so there will be no more oil anywhere. (Based on the last statistics I looked up.) Claiming that oil is cheap or unimportant is a grave error. Oil is the blood of the 20th century.

P: Again, international law does not condone genocide.

O: The "balkanization" of the United States? A threat, perhaps. But irrelevant to the matter at hand.

N: Terrorism is the warfare of the future, I'm afraid. Are you saying that we shouldn't do something for fear of retaliation? Chamberlain had the same idea.

M: Perhaps this was all another dastardly plot of Rupert Murdoch? Misinformation, or some such.

L: These are important issues, they deserve attention.

K: It's all about advertising.

J: Probably not.

I: I don't know. Poker debts gone bad?

H: With the money used to build a few B-2's, we could have a rather nice moon colony. At least the moon colony wouldn't have a problem with the humidity.

G: You live a long way away from any producers of marmalade. Shipping costs add up, you know.

F: Seeing as how even the Soviets couldn't do much with Soviet technology, and that Serbia does not, as you say, present an overwhelming military threat, I don't think we have to worry too much about being outgunned. Now, as to the actual fighting, who can say?

E: All I can give you is the official position, which states that the ability of the Serb army to wage war will be "removed." You can't do that solely with air power, no. Realistically, we'll probably see bombing continue until Serbia back down a bit, and the whole thing resets for a few years.

D: The United States would seem to be concerned with two things. Preventing further atrocities and keeping the situation contained. While there are probably other ways to do the second, the first requires active participation. Should the U.S. be involved in any NATO action that isn't strictly defined by the charter itself? I suppose that depends on your point of view. But it can be hard to maintain alliances by following the letter of the law alone.

C: The function of NATO has changed a bit since the end of the Cold War. NATO stood for stability in Europe. Defense of the balance of power. The end of the Soviet threat doesn't necessarily negate the need to guard European stability. Technically, one could argue that Serbia violated conditions of an agreement with NATO, but you could also argue that Serbia was forced into that position. I'm not entirely clear on the terms under which the earlier peace talks were occuring.

B: Again, if we're talking strictly about the external threat posed by Kosovo, the issue doesn't lay in a Serbian invasion of Central Europe, but the area acting as a flashpoint for war between other powers. Yes, U.S. actions are antagonizing Russia. But without those actions you could easily see a war break out in the region anyway. Attacking now is a risky gamble. Waiting is a risky gamble. I can't say for certain that this is the right decision. Waiting around for more people to die certainly doesn't seem like an alternative, though.

A: Exactly the situation that could occur again if fighting continues. The strategy right now seems to be to use force to stop the fighting now rather then using more force to stop it later.

If you want to use international law, you have to use all of it. You can't combine it with moral relativism and claim the high ground.

Futhermore, it's a good thing there are only 26 letters in the alphabet.

P.S. As a reward to responding to every letter, perhaps Odelay could get an extra point or two?

P.P.S. Don't you think now would be a good time to plug your endeavor?

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"The record of my unspeakable crimes, in previous lives, in previous times, indelibly stains the pages of history."
--
They Might Be Giants


Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
DT
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Let me just rebut a few points.

1) Russia continually violated the Geneva Convention in Chechnya. If you were at all familiar with that situation, you would realize that, by your moral highground, a war should've started.

2) Oil is unimportant. Stop reading those "A Democratic Party for the New Millenium" pamphlets you are so fond of.

3) Do you even know who Carlos Westdorp is? Obviously not.

4) Soviets never got to use those weapons against NATO.

5) Mr. Johnson, you can have one war, not both.

6) I don't pretend to take a moral high ground. I take the realistic viewpoint.

7) Terrorism is indeed the warfare of the future. Total war is the warfare for now. Milosevich is only putting down the KLA. You want to sit around burning Atlanta and setting fire to My Lai and bombing the hell out of Hiroshima and Dresden. God forbid a non-American exercise his right to conduct war the way he wants!!

8) Yes, you responded to all the points, but you responded like LBJ, so you get nothing :-)

9) I wouldn't plug my venture here, don't want it to be swarming with Democrats :-)

Just call me Hangman....

------------------
Day, after day
I get angry and I will say
That the day, is in my sight
When I will bow, and say good night
-------
Violent Femmes


Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Sol System
two dollar pistol
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Fine. I concede to your position.

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"The record of my unspeakable crimes, in previous lives, in previous times, indelibly stains the pages of history."
--
They Might Be Giants


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DT
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YES! Another convert to my party! Screw 15 years, I can rise faster than that! (anyone who gets the reference, I applaud)

I also feel that I should point out now that I have no reason to defend Serbia. Quite the contrary, I despise Milosevich and Serbia. They're Russian lackies, and as anyone can tell, I despise Russia. Hence, I should be calling for these bombings. The more dead Russian allies, the better. Yet, I strongly feel morally opposed to them.

------------------
Day, after day
I get angry and I will say
That the day, is in my sight
When I will bow, and say good night
-------
Violent Femmes


Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Cargile
Nobody Special
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North Atlantic Treaty Organization.
North Atlantic Warfare Organization.

I like NOWA better.

Daryus, come on man. Why is the USA involved? Where have you been? After WWII the US and the USSR were in competition to see who could take over the world. You can't be blind to that logic?
Well since the Soviets collasped, the US is in the lead to spreading democracy and capitalistic values, and we enjoy soliciting other countries into thinking we got a good thing going. We pretty much are winning the Take Over the World game.
And really, there hasn't been anything really good on US news channels since the OJ Simpson trial. We need some airstrike bombs to entertain us. It makes us feel strong and powerful to know our hard earned income taxes have been used appropiately to bully a smaller, weaker country. We want to shake up the world and say, "Look at me ya b*stards!" It's 1999. Who would have thought that an upstart country founded by pilgrims and criminals, and run-aways would have taken the world by storm in a matter of a few hundred years. We are the Roman Empire of the New World Order man! Hail Caesar! (Wouldn't Clinton look good in olive branchs?)

But really folks, in my solipsist point-of-view, this is just a fulfillment of my appolcalypse fantasy. Sorry.

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The best thing about being a solipsist is that I'm the only one here.
--Paul Cargile


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Orion Syndicate
He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!
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This picking and choosing of battles is just politics where if you're strategically important to Clinton, he and his puppet (Tony Blair) will go in and bomb you. If you haven't got anything, then tough luck, you can die.

If you want to apply the Geneva convention to certain situations and use this as an excuse for action or if you go in because of the genocide, how do you justify not doing anything about the other situations. Oh yeah, they're 'sorry' about not doing something in Rwanda - fat lot of good that's gonna do the people now dead and their families. They complain about human rights abuses in Iraq against the Kurds and bomb them. The Chinese have got one of the worst human rights records around. What's being done there? Iraq was attacked because they're small and easy to beat because they couldn't resist very well. But with China it's Oh you're very naughty people, I'm very angry with you? Come on. I realise that China is too big to be bombed, but this hypocracy that's going on is just mad. How do you choose who lives and who dies, and how can you tell people, that they're not important enough, so they can die.

Killing people is wrong, even if Kosovo does belong to Serbia which I believe it doesn't. The Kosovars want independence, so they should have it. If you commit to one situation, you have to do something about the others also because otherwise any credibility you have is lost. That's why these small nations hate the West so much: Just barging in, picking and choosing battles that suit them.

There's my two penny's worth, Peace.

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"If it should become necessary to fight, could you arrange to find me some rocks to throw at them"


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Montgomery
Reigning Supreme
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By this stage a "Previously on the Flameboard..." introduction would be handy.

I remain a supporter of the NATO action in Serbia, and I want a lolly too.

so, DT:

A - WW1 was precipitated by the assassination of ArchDuke Ferdinand in Sarajevo by a Bosnian Serb gunman. There then followed a grim and escalating "Hey! Don't you hit my friend! THWACK!" scenario.
But WW1 history isn't at issue here.

B - I agree Milosevic is no Hitler in terms of sheer military power and personal charisma. But he is the man most responsible for the Balkan wars of the 1990s and the policy of "ethnic cleansing" is undefendable.
As for pissing off Russia, well frankly the Russians can spin on it. Their economy can't support their domestic population, let alone fund an extended military campaign in another country. As for the nuclear threat, they would never be that dumb.

C - NATO has the same right as a man in the street who intervenes when he sees someone else being knifed by a mugger. The right to take action to safeguard innocent lives. The right to try and end the bloody litany of atrocities paraded on TV.

Are we only to do anything if NATO itself is targeted? By that token America had no right to intervene in the fight against Nazi Germany, and indeed neither did Britain when Poland was invaded in 1939.


D - America is there because it's a memeber of NATO and because action to stabilise the Balkans is in its interest. Also, the American government values its allies in Europe and realises it pays to have SOME friends in the world community.

E - As already stated by others, the Balkan conflict could escalate to engulf the whole region. Refugees could swamp European nations, arms races would flare up as countries went to the aid of their friends, financial markets would be endangered by increased miltary spending and terrfied investors.

F - Ideally a demonstration of force would be enough to convince Serbia to accept a peace accord over Kosovo. Sadly this seems unlikely. I agree it is probable that some level of ground force may be required. NATO should not flinch from doing what is necessary just because the chances are some of their soldiers may be killed by enemy fire.

G - I don't know, have you tried Lemon Curd? It's quite delicious.

H - This is a facile argument. Money will be spent on military equipment regardless of whether any actual hostilities are going on. We could also open hospitals by scrapping NASA, or by not funding "blue-sky" scientific research at Universities, or by not funding art galleries.

I - I have no idea who the hell you're talking about. I can only suggest that they all sat round a table to discuss it, and decided it was best for everyone.

J - The US is. I can live with that.

K - Self-congratulatory nonsense added to a brew of self-serving egomaniacs being honoured by jealous peers for making supreme contributions to the moronification of society. Or it could just be because all those comercial breaks slow down the proceedings.

L - YES

M - I am ignorant of his true nationality & so cannot say.

N - I can't speak for Americans, but I believe I speak for the British public in saying we're made of stern enough stuff to cope with what comes our way.

O - Westdorp? 404 Reference not found.

P - I'll assume your comparison is meant in a sarcastic way. Any genuine analogy is both ludicrous and deeply offensive.

Q - Oil is in no way as plentful as the sweet corn of the fields. Sol is correct in warning of an impending energy crisis. Oil is indeed the blood of our society. It may not seem that way to Americans with all the gasoline so incredibly cheap there, but in the UK you need only see how the Gulf War affected Petrol prices to see how much we depend on oil.

R - What about Albania? It's not the issue. The action is designed to prevent humanitarian disaster in Kosovo and halt the spread of ethnic cleansing. Any other sucker tried it, I'd like to think we'd stamp down hard on them too.

S - Again I cannot comment. The question of the next president is a matter for Americans to decide.

T - While you say you care for Chechens more than Albanians, some of us value every human life as equally important. I refer you to the reply my right honourable Solar System gave some moments ago. And the risks you take in going toe to toe with Russia are quite different to those you take wth Serbia.

U - *looks around* I dunno about you guys, but I don't think this crap is all that funny.

V - Kosovo is indeed part of Serbia, however it is a region where the majority of the population oppose this state of affairs. Again, I refer you to Sol's answer.

W - I could say something uncharitable a this point.

X - Oh for F### sake....

Y - Interntional law is a point I wanted to address. A lot of people have complained that all this bypasses the mechanism of the UN and is unprecedented. Well then, let me quote the man himself, Tony Blair, who said with admirable clarity:

"People say - and I understand - you can't be self-appointed guardians of what is right and wrng. True - but when the interantional community agrees certai objectives and then fails to implement them, those that can act, must."

The UN has agreed the human rights of the Albanian-speaking majority in Kosovo must be protected. The veto ature of the Secuity Council paralyses it from taking any concerted action, because the Russians care more for sticking up for the serbs than they do aout the bodies piling up on the ground. NATO has, quite correctly, decide to screw the Russians and take action itself.

Another argument is that NATO is being hypocritical in intervening here while Africa burns. This is true! The failure to act in Rwanda is deeply shaming for the UN and its members. But just because someone doesn't act before when they should have, do you try to stop them acting now when another situation arises? That's CRAZY!

Z - Lolly, please...


I'll be on holiday now, so unable to further debate this for a while, but I will say this:

Hooray for NATO! Three Cheers for Clinton.
NATO hay have ulterior motives bubbling in some CIA office somewhere, but what was happening in Kosovo was WRONG. Now let's hope the Serbia Government opts for a peaceful settlement as soon as possible to stop more casualties.

Thank you for watching.
*BLIP!*

------------------
"To appear in an Ernie Wise play...is the final accolade"
"Look at me and say that"
"Accolade."
"AH-hahaha!"


Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Jeff Raven
Always Right
Member # 20

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Hate to enter the discussion a bit late....BUT, Russia's not ticked off cuz of Yugoslavia...

Think about it. Anyone check the NATO member list lately? Guess who joined NATO coupla weeks ago.

Poland
Czech Republic
And either Austria or Hungary...

Now as to what this means, I am not sure, but I'll get back to it...

------------------
"That is the exploration that awaits you: Not mapping the stars and studying nebulae, but charting the unknown possiblities of existence." - Q, All Good Things...


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