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I understand what you're saying completely. Well put. Especially that piece about the Holocaust. I can't really think of anything to say to that, except that looking back on what I said and what you said, you're right. The example is a good one.
But, just as an example, let's say we were to meet somewhere. We discuss the political views we seem to share. Upon our second meeting, I mention my religious beliefs. How would your perceptions of me change?
------------------ "I promise you, Wilma, that not one man on this force will rest until the criminal scum that did this are behind bars. Now let's go get a bite to eat." - Frank Drebbin, Detective Lieutenant in Police Squad
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seanr: You make several great points. But I take exception to this statement: "What makes the difference is the sense of safety that believers have, the idea that as long as they do good in life, there will always be someone there to care for them and love them."
The whole point of Christianity is that, no matter how much good you do in life, it cannot outweigh the bad. Being perfectly good, God cannot stand the presence of badness, no matter how much human good is applied against it. It's like a credit card debt that you can never pay off. Christ pays the debt for you.
The comfort I find in my faith is that, to modify your words slightly, "no matter how much good OR BAD I do in life, there will always be someone there to care for me and love me." I know that no matter how many bad things I do today, God won't love me any less; no matter how little I deserve his love, he'll never stop giving it to me. Actually, that's a pretty good definition of what Christians mean when they talk about "grace."
Once again, I'm not trying to convert anyone or belittle anyone's belief system. I'm just trying to correct misinformation about MY belief system when it pops up.
------------------ Dane
"...and there was war in heaven..." The Bible, Revelation 12:7
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Have you ever read any book of Zecharia Sitchin or Alan Alford. They say that the gods were actually extraterrestrial beings. And you know what the scary part is, the theory explains everything and is comletely water-proof (and millenium proof)! From the piramids to the Brazilian cocaine found in Eqyptian mummies!
(Actually, in Star Trek they even found the Common Ancestor of all humanoids.)
------------------ So small, So innocent, so young, So delicately done Grown up in your poison.
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Dane, you said: "Being perfectly good, God cannot stand the presence of badness..."
I assume you mean in his PHYSICAL presence, since there seems to be an awful lot of "badness" around this planet, and in "Hell," and that seems to be just fine by Him.
Jaresh: Honestly? Yes, it would affect my impressions, although probably not enough to change them. Although I'll admit freely to being a bit prejudiced in that area, my opinion of a person's character and intelligence does not depend on the religion they follow (except "Satanism." Satanism is shallow and stupid. The 'hedonistic' kind even moreso, for calling itself 'satanism.')
You would need to assure me that your political beliefs sprang from your reasoned considerations, rather than being simply a by-product of your religious beliefs, as they are to so many. Being who I am, I could never accept the "Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it" mindset.
------------------ Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited January 05, 2000).]
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The ironic thing is that most of it probably wasn't even spoken by jesus. So much of the bible came from stories that were passed down through the generations before finally being written down that we have no way to know what is real and what is mere embelishment or human error.
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Not to mention the high likelihood that the Gospels themselves were rewritten and heavily edited in the three hundred years leading up to, and during, Nicea and the other Councils which decided just what was to go in to the 'final' Bible version.
In fact, the now-defunct Apollonius page suggested that there was a great deal of evidence that the gospels were INTENSIVELY rewritten for Nicea in order to appease Constantine.
------------------ Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
"I assume you mean in his PHYSICAL presence, since there seems to be an awful lot of 'badness' around this planet, and in 'Hell,' and that seems to be just fine by Him."
Actually, I meant he can't stand it PERIOD. But he allows it to exist because He is patient with people and wants them to change their lives ("repent"). If you're really interested in the facts behind this, grab a Bible and read Second Peter 3:3-13. I'll post it if anyone's interested, but the gist of it is that God has promised to destroy the evil in the world, but according to HIS timetable, not ours. He's restraining himself because he loves people; he holds back the End because he doesn't want anyone lost. He's giving everyone the time and space to change. When the End does come, it will be unannounced, a complete surprise to everyone, and everything we know as "physical reality" will be changed, made perfect. Therefore, Peter concludes, we should live good lives today, based upon the saving grace of God in Jesus.
You also said, "Being who I am, I could never accept the 'Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it' mindset." ME EITHER! So I've spent the last twelve years putting the Bible to the test in my life. In every instance, God has lived up to his promises, in my experience.
I think I covered my thoughts on the issue of the Bible's factality in the other thread, so all I'll say here is that we can't prove our opinions, so it comes down to a faith decision -- which scholars do you believe? If anyone wants to debate the factual integrity of the Bible, perhaps a new thread would be the appropriate place?
Thanks again for reading, all!
------------------ Dane
"...and there was war in heaven..." The Bible, Revelation 12:7
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