posted
I love how Rob says I'm changing the subject when all I do is regurgitate Omega's post virtually word for word
Anyway, I suppose your answer would be to give everyone in England guns. Then, when their percentage of gun-related crimes is up to ours, you can feel proud and justified that guns prevent crimes, even though England's present jump in the crime rate is due to the presense of handguns. And when that makes things "worse", you won't even heed your own advice to ban guns, because that would be "wrong." Fuck the crime rate, you just want a handgun and are willing to go to any lengths to ignore facts that show that countries with fewer guns have far fewer crimes committed then the U.S. of A.
Yet more examples of indoctrinated gun owners clapping their hands over their ears and screaming "IT'S NOT TRUE! IT'S NOT TRUE!" and ignoring reality.
How childish.
[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Malnurtured Snay ]
Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
quote:Originally posted by First of Two: What, they're not allowed to learn from our example?
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Nice attempt at misdirection and changing the subject, though. Desperation tactic.
[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: First of Two ]
Ah, so in Omega's WoD case, it's "learning from an example", but not here? Or could you *possibly* have meant that Ommie take note from Jeff's re-formulation of his post? Though I wonder why you'd refer to him in the plural form if that's the case.
And the real desperation tactic is accusing others of attempting to divert people's attention.
[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Cartman ]
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
Okay, let's get back on the real topic of discussion, the apparent failure of the English ban, and let's Keep It Simple. No going on about Japan, no talking about the US's homicide rate, no digressions into who wants to own guns, knives, or tactical nuclear weapons, or into the respective characters of Bush, Gore, Clinton, Bush II, or Buddy. Talk about the situation in England, or Keep Off The Friggin' Grass.
1. England banned all civilian ownership of handguns. The intent being to reduce handgun crime.
2. Handgun crime (apparently perpetrated largely by civilians) has risen (30% to 90%, depending upon the type of crime, mugging to murder) since the ban.
Both of the above statements are incontrovertible, undisputed facts.
The inescapable conclusion is that the handgun ban did NOT have the desired result.
Given the significant RISE in the handgun crime rate, it is quite reasonable to theorize that the ban has had a contrarian effect, although it is possible to suppose that the rise is due to other factors, but it is the responsibility of the pro-ban speaker to provide us with the alternative factor and an explanation.
[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: First of Two ]
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
For varying definitions of "give" and "everyone", it might not be a bad idea. How 'bout:
Allow any mentally compenant adult with no criminal record beyond a certain point (i.e. a traffic ticket) to purchase a gun if he or she chooses.
Work for you?
[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Omega ]
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Sadly, Omega, neither you or I are citizens of the U.K. And while those definitions would sit fine with me as someone whose got to put up with the Second Ammendment, it strikes me as kind of funny that any American would think they know what is best for England.
posted
I can tell you what would be good for the world.......
1. Get all the people together that want to do drugs on an island.... Mind if I borrow Australia for a bit here. Since most crimes that use firearms seem to be drug related....
2. On this island you print up trillions in some goof ball currency, and scatter it liberally about the land mass.
3. Plant all the plants needed to make all those pleasureable drugs, and set up the factories needed to refine and define them, plus those needed to make synthetic ones.
or......
Banning all firearms may seem like a sweet dream to some, but then you would have drive by cocktailings and sling shootings.
A real question here...
In any nation, what types of firearm saftey classes are offered to people, what types are manadory?
My father demonstrated the power of fireams to me before I was big enough to weild the things, since they were twice as long as I was tall, by taking me out and shooting things, deer, rabbits, coyetes, that the likes. Seeing the damage can have a sobering effect on one. Maybe institute that kind of class to the kids, anywhere, along with teaching the tyke's that they don't need to shoot someone to earn other peoples respect.
Here's what we have sofar. 1. A ban on legal ownership of hand firearm would only be followed by legal minded people. This makes me think that a reverse psyc thing is happening. Criminals won't use guns because the people they are robbing won't have one.....
2. The bans seem to have no effect on crime rates, or an increasing effect on it.
3. No one seems interested in rooting out the bottom lines of these crimes, just the weapons/tactics used in them.
4. Our time could be better spent fly fishing for Raptors in the Artic than continuing on in this circular set of arguments.
Does that sound right to you all????
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Snay: My answer is nothing so extreme as that.
You're falling into the 'Omega Either-Or Trap.' (TM).
Either handguns must be banned entirely Or the government must give everyone a handgun.
How about just repealing the ineffective law?
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
Registered: Mar 1999
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If not, it's exceedinly foolish, bordering on deranged, to think that it will suddenly become so if the ban were repealed.
Registered: Mar 1999
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But I think the answer would be to keep the ban in place and find out *where* people are getting guns from, and shutting down the source. I'm sure that's not as easy as it sounds, but it shouldn't be impossible. A good place to start would be stricter controls on military and police weaponry.
Also, given the time between the passing of the ban and the jump of crime, I'd say its unrelated to said ban.
[ January 12, 2002: Message edited by: Malnurtured Snay ]
posted
Doubtful. I believe that a study of the intervening years would show a rise each year. If it rises again this year, Other things remaining the same, a pattern should become obvious.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Whatever. But, since we Brits are obviously incapable of getting this right, let us sip from the fountain of your wisdom. We lose the ban. Then what?
posted
Well, three days and no answer. That saddens me. I was hoping for some long, breathtakingly-researched plan to curb gun crime without infringing on Mankind's God-given right to own firearms. But obviously not. It seems this thread was, after all, just another chance to gloat over the misfortunes of others.
posted
Nah, Nah, your country is getting as bad as ours.....
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
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