posted
A good ritual should involve installation of a sense of responsibility, and perhaps secrecy concerning that which is ritualized. For instance, Freemasons must swear oaths that they will perform (or not perform, as the case may be) various tasks. They engage in a long ceremony during which the individual being 'ritualized' takes the representative place of an idealized man. And every word of the ritual is secret, not to be spoken of to those not in the know.
Many rituals require a period of training and preparation, everything from learning the intricasies of sand painting to fasting before a vision quest. To use my previous example, Freemasons must demonstrate a level of knowledge and understanding of their early rituals and undergo a trial period of probation before they are permitted to undergo later ones.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
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posted
My eyebrows are so far above my head that it's not true.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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posted
I wasn't really talking about a secret society. I was talking about some kind of culture bearing ritual, like a personalized chautauqua. The goal of such an event would be to help raise young Dick and Jane into Good Adults.
Humans are ritualistic creatures. It stands to reason that the coming of age thing should be accompanied by some kind of marking, but the best we seem to do is clap their backs and say "You're gonna love this..."
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
quote:I said the threat should be there. Not that it should always be used.
In that case there is no point in even bothering to keep the threat around.
quote:If you invade a lion's territory, disturb its young, steal its food, maybe even threaten it, do you really have a right to be mad when it mauls you to death? There's nothing 'morally disturbing' when a lion kills a jackal for messing with its meal.
Humans != lions. Our "kingdom" is supposed to be above such animal brutality...
quote:I'm presupposing a society in which the use of lethal force in the defense of self and any property is considered reasonable.
I'll keep that in mind when you accidentally bump into me on the street... I might just think you were trying to steal my wallet.
quote:...the two societies where such a thing has come closest to fruition (the aristocracy in the dueling days, and the American 'Old West') had lower violent incident rates per capita than any other.
Yes, let's return to the days where the outlaws were the law!
quote:A society in which the threat is omnipresent does lead to the 'weeding out' of the elements which are not willing or able to follow the codes of behavior that evolve. When rudeness leads to death, politeness becomes the norm. A man will be courteous to the next man, when he knows that rudeness may drop him in a duel. A man will be careful what he takes offense to, lest he, through oversensitivity, ends up dueling someone better.
A society in which threats of brutal force are necessary to invoke "politeness" is not one I'd care to be a part of.
[ January 31, 2002, 05:17: Message edited by: Cartman ]
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-------------------- "I was surprised by the matter-of-factness of Kafka's narration, and the subtle humor present as a result." (Sizer 2005)
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quote:In that case there is no point in even bothering to keep the threat around.
"Unused threat" kept the peace between the US and USSR for 40 years. It is the concept behind all deterrents, including nonlethal ones.
quote:Humans != lions. Our "kingdom" is supposed to be above such animal brutality...
We'd like to think so. Meanwhile, back in the REAL world, some gang-bangers killed an infant and a grade-schooler in Pittsburgh a few days ago.
quote:I'll keep that in mind when you accidentally bump into me on the street... I might just think you were trying to steal my wallet.
Be SURE. I'm probably a faster draw and a better shot than you are. And the other thirty or so armed individuals that would be standing around you in this scenario might have something to say about it, too. Anyone who would pull a gun and fire without cause in a place full of other armed people deserves to be deselected.
quote:Yes, let's return to the days where the outlaws were the law!
You've watched too many movies... or you're unaware of just gow much on-the-street power the street thugs have now.
quote:A society in which threats of brutal force are necessary to invoke "politeness" is not one I'd care to be a part of.
I eagerly await your solutions, then.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
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quote:Be SURE. I'm probably a faster draw and a better shot than you are. And the other thirty or so armed individuals that would be standing around you in this scenario might have something to say about it, too. Anyone who would pull a gun and fire without cause in a place full of other armed people deserves to be deselected.
Oh, sure, you bump him, and he's not allowed to shoot you for being rude? Wasn't that the whole point of your post? An armed society is a polite society? I think all the people standing around would shoot YOU for bumping into him in the first place. Heck, he probably wouldn't even get a chance to draw his gun before your limp body -- which the coroner would later determine to have been shot 67 times -- hit the ground!
And THAT, Rob, is the problem with your grand notion. Have a nice day, and if you ever bump into me in the street, I'll punch you in the face in the spirit of "a society that punches each other is a polite society." And if you punch me back, I suspect a lot of the crowd will punch you since, after all, you did bump into me.
quote:I eagerly await your solutions, then.
Opening your eyes to the real world would be a good start. Or just tossing you and fifty people -- all armed -- into a room and asking you all to enforce the "politeness" doctrine you advocated. We'd see how long you'd last.
posted
Learn a lesson here, kiddies. A lesson I forgot. "Don't bother fighting a battle of wits with an unarmed Baltimorean."
Fortunately, I feel confident most of the people here can grasp that I wasn't talking about 'bump into you' politeness. I was talking about 'don't steal from other people, it's rude' politeness. I'm talking, and have always been, about deliberate acts.
I was, therefore, talking about the suspicion of theft in the 'bump' post, not the bumping itself. Even this 'armed society' of mine would see an accidental bump as inconsequential. You don't punish people for accidents. You punish them for deliberate, planned actions. (Of course, some folks can't tell that there's a difference, but I chalk that up to a substandard education. Those people will get themselves deselected quickly anyway.)
And as I said before, if you're going to make a charge, better be fairly sure it will stick. The 'Gut reaction is to fire' folks will be deselected.
[ January 31, 2002, 16:23: Message edited by: First of Two ]
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
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posted
Missed the joke again, eh? Your neurotransmitter levels must be dropping.
"battle of wits." "unarmed Baltimorean." Battle. Unarmed. get it?
Let me try another one:
"I'm not arrogant... I'm just better than you."
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
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posted
Yeah, Rob, I noticed you were resorting to personal attacks since all your arguements have been ripped to shreds. Oh, no, it's okay ... just responding in kind.
posted
Demolished? Hardly. You misinterpreted (okay, maybe I wasn't clear enough about what I meant -- I do tend to speak my own rareified language sometimes), launched a rant, then declared a victory, ignoring my response totally.
And I believe YOU were the first to make it personal, with the 'punch in the face' comments. Before that, all the "you"s were impersonal, non-specific.
[ January 31, 2002, 18:29: Message edited by: First of Two ]
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
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posted
Two more little boys who wouldn't grow up. I'm sure Peter Pan chairs a support group for this or something.
*clang* Another one bites the dust.
-------------------- "I was surprised by the matter-of-factness of Kafka's narration, and the subtle humor present as a result." (Sizer 2005)
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