posted
When the thirteen colonies were still part of England, Professor Alexander Tyler wrote about the fall of the Athenian Republic over a thousand years ago. He said:
quote: “ A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s great civilizations has been two hundred years. The nations have progressed through the following sequence,. From bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage.”
Where are we?
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
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This is, of course, essentially Plato's argument against the democratic state. But, as I'm sure many will rush to point out, the United States is far from Athens. In theory, at least, the will of the majority is balanced against the tempered experience of the elected officials.
Perhaps more importantly, what good does such an observation do us? Are we to read this as an anarchic manifesto? (Power is evil!) Because surely what holds true for the democracy holds true for any concievable government. If we believe that the people in power will always pursue their own ends at the expense of those beneath them we might as well quit this whole civilization farce and go home.
I am going to tenetively suggest that the good professor is overlooking the subtleties of relationships between the governors and the governed.
Beyond that, this two hundred years stuff I find highly suspect. What constitutes a "great civilization"? China, which has existed in a recognizable form for four or five thousand years? Even what we might nebulously call England took a lot longer than two hundred years to run its course from feudal state to superpower.
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posted
Beyond that, this two hundred years stuff I find highly suspect. What constitutes a "great civilization"?
Why, one that last 200 years, of course.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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posted
Don't be so sure. "Liberty" was actually only the fourth stage in the cycle, so if Year Zero is set at the threshold between "Bondage" and "Spiritual Faith", the year of independence wouldn't be it... The 55 years are just an upper limit!
Umm, where are you from anyway, Grocka? Why did your cycle start in 1877?
Timo Saloniemi
[ April 09, 2002, 06:01: Message edited by: Timo ]
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posted
Well, we have abundance, and plenty of selfishness, but are still lacking courage and liberty from the step before. That step, for true liberty, to me, would require that the state of mind be that all are equal. With the US's history, with everyone acheiving each of these steps at diferent times, ethnicly speaking, a certain date really can not be given. Plus that kind of attitude would be difficult to come by, voting ourselves money from the public treasury..... At what level of the public treasury would a group vote funds from? Plus getting people, at anytime, to agree on a way of dividing said funds wouldn't take a short time......
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
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Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33
posted
I think Grocka was talking about Canada, which attained Independance in 1867.
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posted
Well, Canada's certainly at the apathy stage. Not that I care. Oops, just proved my point.
China might have existed in a recognizable for for thousands of years, but it was hardly as a single entity. They recognized that they shared the same culture, but that didn't keep them from having different governments and wars between them.
-------------------- "God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
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posted
Here's how I see it. I'm probably wrong. I hope so.
From bondage to spiritual faith, 1770's-1800 the struggle for independence and the growth of the nation, also; manifest destiny, on the darker side.
from spiritual faith to great courage, 1800-1862 the beginnings of the battle for true freedom.
from courage to liberty, 1863-1945 the war to end slavery, through several other wars to promote and preserve freedom worldwide
from liberty to abundance, 1945-1980's the general economic and social prosperity and growth of these times
from abundance to selfishness, 1980's actually started in the 60's -70's 'counterculture, but reached full fruition in the "Me" decade.
from selfishness to complacency, 1990's
from complacency to apathy, 2000's Generation "Why?" though there are a few hopeful signs that some folks might be pushing towards great courage again...
from apathy to dependency, - we're not here yet, but this is where 'socialism' can take you if you're not entirely careful
from dependency back to bondage. - necessary to keep the promises put forth in the previous 3 parts of the cycle.
[ April 09, 2002, 13:46: Message edited by: First of Two ]
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
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posted
That's right! So vote Republican, and spare us from the freedom-chaining end times of socialism that are looming on the horizon!
And they said Marx was looney for attempting to oversimplify human history into a determinist pattern of transformations.
-------------------- "I was surprised by the matter-of-factness of Kafka's narration, and the subtle humor present as a result." (Sizer 2005)
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posted
I SAID "if you're not entirely careful." Now, perhaps my usage of the language is a little bit different than yours, (my having a degree in the usage of it, and you being whatever you are) but it's my understanding that a qualifying statement such as that implies that the author (perhaps grudgingly) admits that socialism, if used carefully, might not necessarily lead down that road.
And _I_ didn't write the original 'bunching,' I simply gave an interpretation of it. Hell, I even prefaced it with "I'm probably wrong"!
Do you have an actual re interpretation, or a reasoned denial of Tyler's original statement, (you can call him a Marx-level loony if you want, I don't mind that) or are you just having an antirepublican (or more accurately, anti Fo2) masturbatory fantasy?
Wash your hands.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
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[ April 09, 2002, 16:18: Message edited by: First of Two ]
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
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