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Author Topic: Donald Varley: Competent Captain or reckless moron?
Jason Abbadon
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The Romulans were not doing any archeogical anything.
Varleys ship found some artifacts in Fed or undeclared space and followed the clues to Iconia.
I think he just saw the discovery as a long term inevitability.
He had plenty of time to contact starfleet but he knew they'd never allow him to risk a war without hard evidence...and he decided to bend the rules like Kirk and others have in the past....but it didint work how he planned and everyone on his ship died as result.

I had'nt even considered eperating the saucer!
that would have really made the diffrence too!

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Gvsualan
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quote:
Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay:
Varley didn't think that he had a choice in the matter, and given what was at stake, I might be willing to consider him a "competent captain who made a mistake" (even though I don't consider his actions - except for not seperating the saucer - a mistake).

and
quote:
Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
The Romulans were not doing any archeogical anything.
Varleys ship found some artifacts in Fed or undeclared space and followed the clues to Iconia.
I think he just saw the discovery as a long term inevitability.
He had plenty of time to contact starfleet but he knew they'd never allow him to risk a war without hard evidence...and he decided to bend the rules like Kirk and others have in the past....but it didint work how he planned and everyone on his ship died as result.
I had'nt even considered eperating the saucer!
that would have really made the diffrence too!

To sum it up, keep in mind he may not have been able to separate the ship, considering the condition that it was in. He did state in his logs that their transporter were down, perhaps too their warp drive (as to explain why they were just sitting there), and seeing that saucer separation is such a 'major' process for that ship to conduct, it might not have had the capibility to do it, or if it could, who is to say the computer virus wouldnt have found a way to kill the crew by cutting off life support next, or something.

His only REAL mistake was underestimating the Iconian probe. Had that not happened, he too, like Picard and Co., could have just waltzed down to the planet or managed some other means destroy the Gateway and go on their merry way.

Keep in mind he did manage to contact the Enterprise, so the opportunity existed for him to contact Starfleet Command, why he may not have may be contributed to 1) the distance from the diplomats making the decisions and the fact that he felt that this situation deemed immediate action. And 2) the fact that it really wouldnt have made for that good of an episode....

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Gvsualan
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In Varleys case it was all about maintaining the balance of power. Some relavent points from "Contagion":
quote:

VARLEY - I know what you're thinking, what the hell am I doing here? Well, I had heard rumors about a couple of archaeological digs that started making the Iconians sound a lot less like legend. I did a little investigating, and I located their homeworld.

PICARD - Donald, this was quite a risk to run just to satisfy an archaeological curiosity.

VARLEY - No, the risk would be in allowing the Romulans to locate Iconia. Fortunately, I got there first. It's a virtually dead planet, but enough of the technology remains to give the Romulans an edge if they were ever to find it.

quote:

VARLEY (from log) - My first officer is questioning the wisdom of my order to violate the Neutral Zone, but I am convinced I have taken the only proper course. Should this advanced technology fall into
the hands of the Romulans, we might as well dock our ships and defend ourselves with sticks.

quote:

VARLEY - Personal log. I am unable to send an away team to the surface of Iconia, nor can I scan the energy source on the planet because of these maddening system failures. It is infuriating to be stopped at the threshold of a dream by one's own ship. We are leaving orbit to rendezvous with Picard. If his people can't help us repair the Yamato, I must convince him to continue this exploration. The future well being of the Federation may depend upon it.

By all of this, it would seem that Varleys mission-of-boyhood-fantasy turned into a mission to save the Federation once he discovered the location of the Iconian homeworld and that the location of it is well within the grasps of the Romulans and giving them an opportunity at grasping a foothold over the competition.

quote:

WORF - Sir, that would put us substantially closer to the Romulan side of the Neutral Zone.

PICARD - It can't be helped. Ensign Crusher, lay in a course. Warp factor eight.

(Riker is staring at him.)

PICARD - We are going to assume the Yamato's mission.

RIKER - And risk a war?

PICARD - If that's what it takes to get some answers.

Picard, too, is compelled to do the same thing, no matter the cost, be it war or his ship. He, like Varley, put his crew at risk to save the Federation, a conclusion he draws upon viewing Varleys evidence.

It seems that this premise was true, too, with Weyoun and Siskos need to destroy the Jem'Hadar controlled Iconian Gateway in "To the Death": to prevent both the destruction of the Dominion and the Federation. Even Weyoun was more interested in destroying the Gateway moreso than the renegade soldiers controlling it, despite the vast upperhand it could have given the Dominion. The fear of total destruction against a foe you have no way to combat, seems to play a large role in the command decision of a starship

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Gvsualan
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quote:
Malnurtured Snay

As a side note: the fact that Red Squad's CO misled (LIED THROUGH HIS FUCKING TEETH) Starfleet as to the status of the Valiant's commissioned crew, simply points to his unworthiness to command. He was so desperate for the opportunity, he got himself and most of his crew killed, and destroyed an expensive and powerful starship in the process that could've been a greater asset to the Federation in the hands of a capable commander. Don't compare this ignorant snot to Picard, or Varley.


I agree, partially, as Capt. Watters (of Red Squad), was conduction a mission that was addressed to his late Capt. Ramirez. He didn't necessarily lie to Starfleet, regarding the status of the Valiant crew, he just used the explaination of the need to keep "radio silence"; and to, yes, 'make a name for himself' by being a cadet pulling off a major offensive against the enemy.

His drive was the fact that he was getting a boner having command of his own warship, and that he has managed to keep his crew alive for eight long months and his crew loves him for it and he is just eating that up.

[NOTE: The Valiant only originally had 7 commissioned officers on board (and 35 cadets) as it was].

However, aside from taking on a mission that really wasnt his, they did manage to carry it out (that is: find the battleship and obtained a complete scan). The kicker, though was the fact that they were there, and it was probably forseen that no other starship could penetrate Dominion space and do what they were in the position to do.

As much in the manner of heroics that perhaps Varley and Picard in "Contagion" did, Watters felt that the Dominion ship in question "was a direct threat to every Federation outpost and colony within fifty light years and that it must be destroyed". True it wasn't a Gateway posing the potential threat to every planet in the Galaxy, but it would have set the Dominion back a bit destroying the ship.

I think that despite his arrogance to carry the mission forward, he was trying "save", "help", or whathaveyou, the Federation, unfortunately his decision was driven by his ego and not his experience and in doing so, made a poor choice in how he conducted it. I suppose, too, the fact that they thought they had the means to destroy it made it that much more tempting. Again, in the end he meant well, but he ultimately just got in over his head.

I suppose another commander in yet another similar situation to think about is Commodore Decker and his insane battle against the planetkiller, which was initally a battle of insurmountable odds to save Federation lives turned battle of vengence...

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Jason Abbadon
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I think Varley had a boner over the Iconians and how he'd be the big hero for finding their homeworld.
No way was that the Starfleet assigned mission of the Yamato.
As to saucer seperation: He should have done that prior to entering the Neutral Zone.
The first officer could have rescued everyone off the drive section from command of the saucer.

Tey ccould have at least done something sneaky like hake a shuttle acciadent and the yamato searching for it to explain the treaty violation...

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Gvsualan
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: I think Varley had a boner over the Iconians and how he'd be the big hero for finding their homeworld.
That's original...

quote:
No way was that the Starfleet assigned mission of the Yamato.

Never said it was....as you know...there seems to be a certain liberty to go on tangent missions, both officially and unofficially, now and again (i.e. "Gambit" & "The Chase").

quote:
As to saucer seperation: He should have done that prior to entering the Neutral Zone.
The same could have been said with any of the other asinine missions the Enterprise has gone on over the years....

quote:

Tey ccould have at least done something sneaky like hake a shuttle acciadent and the yamato searching for it to explain the treaty violation...

Ugh, you've missed sooo much of the point....
Let me reiterate:
  • Varley sits in the big chair cuz he can make the command decisions, trying to maintain the balance of power was moreless clearly stated in the script as his intentions. The entire state of his mission had a certain severity or urgency to it...deeming what he did necessary...
  • Varleys mission-of-boyhood-fantasy turned into a mission to save the Federation once he discovered the location of the Iconian homeworld and deemed that it was well within the grasps of the Romulans and thus threatened the Federation.
  • Picard also risked everything compelled to do what was necessary, no matter the cost, be it war or his ship to save the Federation. Note too, taht he didnt separate saucer either, and he's no fool, putting his crew at just as much, if not more, risk than Yamatos.
  • Again: "To the Death" (DS9) rehashed "fears".
  • FINALLY - Varley's only REAL mistake was underestimating the Iconian probe. Had that not happened, he too, like Picard and Co., could have just waltzed down to the planet or managed some other means destroy the Gateway and go on their merry way.


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Phoenix
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I must admit it's a long time since I've seen this episode but here goes.

Varley decided to go and search for Iconia on his own without asking, even though it had been lost for ages.

When Picard took over his mission, the Romulans had already met Varley, and were presumably already suspicious.

Therefore, whereas Varley undertook the mission when it was not urgent (the Romulans were hardly likely to find it in the next week when the NZ had been there for centuries), Picard was faced with the real possibility of the Romulans finding Iconia, after Varley's incursion made them suspicious.

Varley - wanted to make a name for himself
Picard - defending the Federation

At least thats my opinion.

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Jason Abbadon
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exactly!

I may have been a bit harsh im my wording of Varley's motives of "wanting to be a hero" (it was late)....but he was living out a boyhood fantasy at the expense of his crew.
Picard would'nt have done that even for say, revenge on the Borg. [Wink]

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Malnurtured Snay
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quote:
it was late)....but he was living out a boyhood fantasy at the expense of his crew.
And what the hell was Picard doing in the Chase?! The same damn thing.

This is my case for Varley.

Varley's location of the homeworld was based on two things:

1.) the uncovering of an Iconian artifcact.

2.) coupling the age of the artifact, with what I believe were recovered starcharts, and accounting for the corrosponding "stellar drift", Varley was able to relatively easily locate Iconia.

Varley's decision to enter the Neutral Zone and located Iconia was also based on two points as well:

1.) The knowledge that if the Romulan Star Empire gained the technology of the Iconians, the balance of power would be overthrown, and the Federation would face a powerful threat with a motive for war.

2.) It stands to reason that there are worlds within the RSE which also house Iconian relics. If so, this could mean that the same evidence which allowed Varley to locate Iconia could be present in the RSE, which means that at any time, a Romulan could make the same deductions and locate Iconia.

In conclusion, to Varley's mind, there was a very real and potential danger sitting between the RSE and the UFP. There was also a very real and potential danger that the Romulans could locate the world, using similar methods to Varley.

Varley wasn't motivated by his boyhood dream. Varley was motivated by preventing a war in which the Romulans would have the supreme advantage.

Donald Varley made the correct decision. He saw a danger to the security of the United Federation of Planets, and he took steps to end that danger, as he is expected to as Captain of a Starfleet starship.

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Jason Abbadon
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At best he jumped the gun: The Romulans had no Iconian artifacts to go on and there was no mention of them investigating at all: they were'nt looking for Iconia (for all we know, archeology is a lost art to them) and as pointed out, the Neutral Zone stood for centuries without them searching that desolate planet.
Varley could have coordinated with Picard and Starfleet instead of risking a instellar war with the Romulans and getting his crew killed without cause.
Remember: the Romulans were not looking for Iconia.
The romulans only started snooping around beacuse a Federation GCS violated the Neutral Zone.
By violating the treaty, Varley caused the Romulans to investigate the Iconians.
What would varley have done if the Iconian homeworld was deep inside Romulan space?
The same thing. He would have started a war on the unfounded assumption that there was useful tech left over from thousands of years ago.
That, to me, is the sign of a poor captain.
(yes I know Picard does almost the same stupid thing later on but there is no risk of instellar war in that sorry episode.)

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Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
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Gvsualan
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Hey, its over...your entire case is based on assumptions...and lets not get into stupid cliches about what happens when we 'assume'. [Smile]

And "The Chase" too, could have started an interstellar war, if you want to assume...seeing that if you want to compare...the Yamato was lost by the Iconian Probe...so technically nothing was destroyed by one adversary by another.

In "The Chase", from what we see on screen, we know thus far the costs were: Galen gets killed, a Yridian Destroyer is destroyed, a planet is virtually destroyed, things come to a head between the Klingons, Cardassians and Federation to where the Cardassians attack the latter two's ships...there is a standoff between 4 major powers on a dead planet....

Hmm...seems like Picard was getting into some risky business compared to Varleys situation...at least Varley *knew* what he was going after, a potential threat, whereas Picard and at least 3 other major powers were pursuing and for something no one knew what was...

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Bernd
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Wasn't this the first episode in which Picard's own interest in archeology was established? In retrospective, I think that he silently agreed with what Varley was doing, although he did not express that in the episode itself.

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AndrewR
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quote:
Originally posted by Futurama Guy:
whereas Picard and at least 3 other major powers were pursuing and for something no one knew what was...

It was a recipe for cookies! [Smile]

It's a wonder the Ferengi weren't also involved in "The Chase".

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I'm LIZZING! - Liz Lemon (30 Rock)

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Gvsualan
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quote:
Originally posted by Bernd:
Wasn't this the first episode in which Picard's own interest in archeology was established?

The history of his interest in archaeology, we saw few occations prior to this were his archaeological interests/knowledge were discussed...


quote:
Originally posted by Bernd:
In retrospective, I think that he silently agreed with what Varley was doing, although he did not express that in the episode itself.

This certainly seemed to be played out in his insistance of going down to the planets surface, contrary to protocol and his first officers chagrin.

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Jason Abbadon
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...well, the ass-groove in his chair was becoming embarrasing.

--------------------
Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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